Provable fairness should be mandated by law! ONLY gamble in provably fair casino

[alani123]

It's been more than 10 years since provable fairness was implemented and popularized thanks to bitcoin gambling.

However, the most popular and otherwise Legally registered casinos that have e-gambling STILL don't implement it.
Most big online casinos that have dice, slots, roulette and other games based on randomness simply have a "certificate" that basically says results will be random Trust Us™. Well, are we supposed to pretend that they don't KNOW provable fairness exists by now? Honestly between the last 10 years all companies capable making custom e-gambling games have become rich. But yet we don't see big casinos caring enough to implement trustless technology.

Under their current schemes, they could be cheating people with rigged games and there wouldn't be even any way to prove this as it all happens virtually... The funny thing is that in many occasions, this happens under government issued licenses. It seems as though even government officials don't care to protect their citizens... When a simple solution exists to irrefutably PROVE the randomness of all games, why would politicians and cronies licensing those games be OK with leaving the door open for online casinos to cheat on their citizens without anyone noticing? Who knows what corruption might be at play here.

It's for these reasons that when I gamble, I only gamble in provably fair casinos. Regardless of whether my government has licensed them or not. This is just one of the occasions that the law doesn't protect anyone other than the 0.1% richest who pay millions for casino licenses.

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[swogerino]

While in theory I strongly agree with you I think that the casinos always will have an upper edge and most slot providers now are offering adjustable RTP and the casino can adjust the RTP to their liking and tell us in the game description another RTP,we have absolutely no way to find out which RTP the casino is using and as such we cannot evaluate if the slot is being run in a provably fair mode or not.The slot provider will surely not give us the client seed,server seed,hash and any other thing needed to prove that the game or the spin was a provably fair one.

In other luck games most casinos,reputable casinos are offering all that is needed to dictate if it is a provably fair game or not.

[arallmuus]

It's for these reasons that when I gamble, I only gamble in provably fair casinos. Regardless of whether my government has licensed them or not. This is just one of the occasions that the law doesn't protect anyone other than the 0.1% richest who pay millions for casino licenses.

If this was 8 years ago then I would have agree to this but most people dont even look at all those provably fair games anymore but rather most flock to the 3rd party slots. All those provably fair games are totally boring in exclusion to some games like the original crash game from moneypot/bustabit but we could take an example like roulette though

Roulette has its own version of provably fair and 3rd party providers but normally most people will always choose the 3rd party roulette especially live roulette because its more entertaining at some sense

[Oshosondy]

Most big online casinos that have dice, slots, roulette and other games based on randomness simply have a "certificate" that basically says results will be ransom Trust Us™.

I think you mean random not ransom as casinos games are using RNG to generate each outcome of a game.

Well, are we supposed to pretend that they don't KNOW provable fairness exists by now? Honestly between the last 10 years all companies capable making custom e-gambling games have become rich. But yet we don't see big casinos caring enough to implement trustless technology.

I have been gambling on many casinos, especially the ones on this forum and I like their results. Most of them are using third party games which is not provided directly by the casinos.

[davis196]

However, the most popular and otherwise Legally registered casinos that have e-gambling STILL don't implement it.
Most big online casinos that have dice, slots, roulette and other games based on randomness simply have a "certificate" that basically says results will be ransom Trust Us™. Well, are we supposed to pretend that they don't KNOW provable fairness exists by now? Honestly between the last 10 years all companies capable making custom e-gambling games have become rich. But yet we don't see big casinos caring enough to implement trustless technology.

So you think that "probably fair" casinos should be trusted? Good for you.
I think that ANY technology can be manipulated in someone's favor(in this case, in favor of the casinos).
I also think that making "probably fair" games mandatory by the law won't change anything.
Let's imagine that a casino has perfectly fair games, that aren't rigged. Will this stop the casino from blocking the account of some gambler, who is constantly winning? Will this stop the casino from refusing withdrawals and banning gamblers, who are considered to be "fraudsters" by the casino. Of course not. Making probable fairness mandatory won't stop the shady casinos from scamming their players.

[Spaceman1000$]

It's been more than 10 years since provable fairness was implemented and popularized thanks to bitcoin gambling.

However, the most popular and otherwise Legally registered casinos that have e-gambling STILL don't implement it.
Most big online casinos that have dice, slots, roulette and other games based on randomness simply have a "certificate" that basically says results will be random Trust Us™. Well, are we supposed to pretend that they don't KNOW provable fairness exists by now? Honestly between the last 10 years all companies capable making custom e-gambling games have become rich. But yet we don't see big casinos caring enough to implement trustless technology.

Under their current schemes, they could be cheating people with rigged games and there wouldn't be even any way to prove this as it all happens virtually... The funny thing is that in many occasions, this happens under government issued licenses. It seems as though even government officials don't care to protect their citizens... When a simple solution exists to irrefutably PROVE the randomness of all games, why would politicians and cronies licensing those games be OK with leaving the door open for online casinos to cheat on their citizens without anyone noticing? Who knows what corruption might be at play here.

It's for these reasons that when I gamble, I only gamble in provably fair casinos. Regardless of whether my government has licensed them or not. This is just one of the occasions that the law doesn't protect anyone other than the 0.1% richest who pay millions for casino licenses.

Virtual games have Risk, and it's always understandable that most virtual games are  pure luck, so to a large extent you might have a point in saying some of the games are rigged to favour the casino companies but on the other hand you should know that this game is purely on your  prediction luck.

I think the government  might be a bit handicap on this issue, if you decide to take it up. Because it can be argued that, you knew how volatile the virtual games are, but yet you choose to go for it.

[maydna]

Perhaps some people will try to prove this proven fairness, but most gamblers will not think about it because their benchmark is to choose a trusted casino with a good reputation, and they can immediately gamble. Even though the casino can cheat, they won't be too serious about it, especially if the game comes from a third party. Casinos know that everything can be proven, and they may welcome people to try to prove the proven fairness. And it will depend on each gambler, but most gamblers won't think too much about it. To avoid scams from casinos, we have to gamble at trusted, proven, fair, and reputable casinos for our good so that we can avoid these scam casinos.

[Hispo]

I agree that probably fairness should be more widespread and taken more seriously by both casino owners and gamblers. I think it is not the case because most of the popular game providers and developers do not seem to care about it, and casinos do not want to start to restrict those providers, out of fear of their platforms not becoming as competitive as others. It would take many casinos to get together and pressure those providers onto making their games probably fair.

I doubt they would go as far as making them open source, which would be ideal for us, but not so much for them

[Beparanf]

Making it mandated by the law is a real pain in the ass since online gambling has a licensed provider and auditors that acts to guarantee the probably fair of the game. We are not on the era which a lot of mediocre casino operates and scam players for a quick profit.

I like the provably fair system but it’s still useless for people that doesn’t know how to code or read smart contracts since you can’t verify of the probably fair system of the specific casino is real or not without examining the code for the seed.

[edmundduke]

It really should be the industry standard. Casinos have their own systems and if they are regulated they must also show these system to the regulators but ideally there should be a way to check all your best in both online and offline casinos. That sayd, implementing in a onine casino will naturally be way easier but i am sure someone could figure it out for offline aswell.
As for myself, i never play in casinos that do not have provable verification. (unless i am testing the casino, but that is another matter entirely)

[cryptomaniac_xxx]

If we are talking about online casinos? it might be difficult to enforce this one unless the gaming board or those who gave license for this casinos to operate are the own who are going to implement it. But we have heard that it's easy to get a Curacao license, with enough money, these casinos can be certified and given a license and then operation the soonest.

So it's a question on who should take this action if there will be a mandated law, and how it can be a law as well? How can it passed and who will decide? So there are a lot of grey areas for this proposal though. So for us, we should be very careful on what casinos we are going to play or if we have a way to test their "provably fair" system.

[abel1337]

I doubt that law makers will prioritize making a law that requires casino owners to have or implement a probably fair system in their casinos. There are a lot of problem in each country right now and those are indeed should be prioritized over this kind of problem. Having a problem with the fairness of casino? Choose a casino that offer the fairness that you want. The one that the government need to prioritize is catching those scam casino over this. There are a bunch of scam casino that is still operating for years but still haven't gotten caught because of weak laws in their country.

[Findingnemo]

So you think that "probably fair" casinos should be trusted? Good for you.
I think that ANY technology can be manipulated in someone's favor(in this case, in favor of the casinos).
I also think that making "probably fair" games mandatory by the law won't change anything.
Let's imagine that a casino has perfectly fair games, that aren't rigged. Will this stop the casino from blocking the account of some gambler, who is constantly winning? Will this stop the casino from refusing withdrawals and banning gamblers, who are considered to be "fraudsters" by the casino. Of course not. Making probable fairness mandatory won't stop the shady casinos from scamming their players.

Provably fair means nothing but the results for a game are actually random which ensures that you are not getting robbed and most casinos allow the users to ensure the results are not previously determined or in short not rigged.

We already have multiple guides about checking the fairness of results on a casino and here is one,

Do you verify every bet as a gambler? Provably Fair Guide.

So we don't need to trust anyone anymore, we can analyze it on our own and if a casino doesn't have that feature then better avoid trusting them with our money.

I guess this is only about the fairness of the game and blocking or freezing users' money with no actual reason or such things are different and if that is a common practice in a casino then they won't be in the business too long.

[yahoo62278]

I heard a long time ago that even if a casino is "provably fair" that the casino could still cheat somehow. Somehow they implement salted seeds or something, not exactly sure how it worked but it did have me curious. Whether or not this is true, I have no clue.  I have had some pretty incredible losing streaks that seem impossible in my dice days.

I wouldn't mind casinos having to verify their code every few months or something, but I doubt that's ever going to happen.

[BitcoinPanther]

I doubt that law makers will prioritize making a law that requires casino owners to have or implement a probably fair system in their casinos. There are a lot of problem in each country right now and those are indeed should be prioritized over this kind of problem. Having a problem with the fairness of casino? Choose a casino that offer the fairness that you want. The one that the government need to prioritize is catching those scam casino over this. There are a bunch of scam casino that is still operating for years but still haven't gotten caught because of weak laws in their country.

Isn't crypto casinos has provably fair system integrated to their games so that player can verify the fairness of their game through hashes?  I have been seeing the provably game claimed by almost all the crypto casinos I visited and they give hashes and seeds to verify them.  However, just like @yahoo62278  some casinos are rumored to be modifying their seeds and hashes to cheat players so that game result will favor the house.

About regulators, I think they have set of rules to keep casino operators from cheating their players, but I do not think regulators are actively monitoring these different casinos.  They only act when the issue is to huge enough just to save them from shame and being labeled as irresponsible.

[ChiBitCTy]

There is no question that this should be something that is mandated by law.  I can't believe that there are even casinos out there that don't have "provably fair" parameters. 

Honestly though, I think all casinos cheat to some extent.  They have their little secrets, and I always approach any casino with a bit of caution.  But provably fair is a great first step, or at least something that's a game changer in terms of choosing a casino.

[rohang]

From what i understand the fiat casinos are heavily regulated by actual 'gaming comissions' and players have an actual course of complaint against the books,

However most of us here play on crypto casinos which have the curacao license which doesnt really mean much,

Regulation of crypto casinos like the fiat casinos could be good in  the 'provably fair' sense but it also will make negatives like loss of privacy for crypto players 

[yahoo62278]

From what i understand the fiat casinos are heavily regulated by actual 'gaming comissions' and players have an actual course of complaint against the books,

However most of us here play on crypto casinos which have the curacao license which doesnt really mean much,

Regulation of crypto casinos like the fiat casinos could be good in  the 'provably fair' sense but it also will make negatives like loss of privacy for crypto players 

If we did see a regulation change in crypto casino would most likely result in more than half of them closing their doors. There are so many options currently but not even all of them have a minimum of the Curacao license.

As much as they use their rules to KYC players and confiscate money or void wins, it would be nice to see casinos held to a standard where players that are legit feel safe playing at their casino.

[Saint-loup]

It's been more than 10 years since provable fairness was implemented and popularized thanks to bitcoin gambling.

However, the most popular and otherwise Legally registered casinos that have e-gambling STILL don't implement it.
Most big online casinos that have dice, slots, roulette and other games based on randomness simply have a "certificate" that basically says results will be random Trust Us™. Well, are we supposed to pretend that they don't KNOW provable fairness exists by now? Honestly between the last 10 years all companies capable making custom e-gambling games have become rich. But yet we don't see big casinos caring enough to implement trustless technology.

Under their current schemes, they could be cheating people with rigged games and there wouldn't be even any way to prove this as it all happens virtually... The funny thing is that in many occasions, this happens under government issued licenses. It seems as though even government officials don't care to protect their citizens... When a simple solution exists to irrefutably PROVE the randomness of all games, why would politicians and cronies licensing those games be OK with leaving the door open for online casinos to cheat on their citizens without anyone noticing? Who knows what corruption might be at play here.

It's for these reasons that when I gamble, I only gamble in provably fair casinos. Regardless of whether my government has licensed them or not. This is just one of the occasions that the law doesn't protect anyone other than the 0.1% richest who pay millions for casino licenses.

I agree with you it's a pity that a decade has passed and things haven't really changed about that matter. And to be honest I don't understand why slot providers don't try to implement this technology if they're honest and transparent. Are they afraid to lose players by proposing things too complex for the average Joe? Do they think users will play less quickly and then fewer rounds at the end if they check the outcomes or if they often change their client seed? Or they are afraid to make them more concerned about their PnL and the RTP of the game? I think things could change in the coming years when people will become more familiar with cryptos thanks to the adoption of CBDCs in some countries.
But meanwhile if you want to play almost provably fair games at casinos, the easiest way is to play live table games, especially card games or dice ones. Since they are mixing cards in front of you, they can't rig the games.

[Casdinyard]

I think there's some major cause for concern regarding casinos who do not employ provably fair games in their roster or those who actively does not include these games in their gallery of gambles. But at the same time, I don't think there's enough reason for you guys to persecute casinos who do these. The thing is that casinos never said they were fair, there's the house edge even that gives them players an idea of what they were really getting into before they gamble, so they can still step back without having to worry about the fact that they already gave the casino their money. They have all the rights in the world to not include provably fair games in their roster, and we have the freedom to not choose casinos like them. It's all give and take really.