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sabotag3x (OP)
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October 10, 2023, 06:47:51 PM
Merited by Loganota (1)
 #1

Nesta terça (9), um cara publicou um paper chamado BitVM, prometendo transformar o Bitcoin em uma máquina virtual (semelhante ao Ethereum Virtual Machine): https://bitvm.org/bitvm.pdf

Queria saber a opinião de vocês, será que vai trazer algo bom para o Bitcoin ou apenas um monte de shitcoin e um novo aumento nas taxas de transação igual os ordinals?

O bom dessa solução é que não precisa de forks, um problema a menos.

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October 11, 2023, 01:14:14 AM
 #2

Nesta terça (9), um cara publicou um paper chamado BitVM, prometendo transformar o Bitcoin em uma máquina virtual (semelhante ao Ethereum Virtual Machine): https://bitvm.org/bitvm.pdf

Queria saber a opinião de vocês, será que vai trazer algo bom para o Bitcoin ou apenas um monte de shitcoin e um novo aumento nas taxas de transação igual os ordinals?

O bom dessa solução é que não precisa de forks, um problema a menos.

Então, hoje mesmo eu estava vendo sobre isso e pelo que estive vendo na verdade não dá pra comparar o BitVM ao pé da letra com o mesmo que fizeram para o Ethereum, até porque ele é pra ser bem mais "lento, caro e complexo".
A promessa, além da "desnecessidade" de forks (que por si só já é uma maravilha) é de tornar várias soluções descentralizadas, e só a questão dos Oráculos em cima disso já renderia discussão para um tópico inteiro Cool

Apesar de todas as promessas de inovação, tudo parece ser bastante complicado.... eu mesmo não entendi quase nada do whitepapper, precisei recorrer à algumas análises "mastigadas" que encontrei aqui e ali e acho que isso deve ser o principal empecilho para sua evolução.

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October 11, 2023, 02:33:39 AM
 #3

Muito legal que tenha gente pensando em novas soluções sobre o Bitcoin. Mas, sinceramente, eu não vejo isso sendo necessário. Lendo o paper e imaginando os casos de uso, não vejo muito sentido além de realizar uma prova de que o Bitcoin possa ser turing complete. Seria igual aqueles caras que rodam doom em qualquer coisa só pra mostrar que é possível.
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October 11, 2023, 03:41:00 AM
 #4

Já tenho que deixar isso bem evidenciado antes que o dark aparece aqui criticando... (Roll Eyes)

"However, BitVM requires no changes to Bitcoin’s consensus rules"

Não há mudanças nas regras de consenso da rede, ou seja, não "complica" ela.

Mas sei que o pessoal ainda não vai gostar, pois isso aumenta o uso da rede (blocos): "It’s mostly based on hashlocks, timelocks, and large Taproot trees"

Não vejo isso passando tão cedo.

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sabotag3x (OP)
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October 11, 2023, 12:28:27 PM
 #5

Seria igual aqueles caras que rodam doom em qualquer coisa só pra mostrar que é possível.

Falando nisso, você já pode jogar DOOM no Bitcoin: https://ordinals.com/inscription/521f8eccffa4c41a3a7728dd012ea5a4a02feed81f41159231251ecf1e5c79dai0 Cheesy

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October 11, 2023, 06:07:06 PM
 #6

Seria igual aqueles caras que rodam doom em qualquer coisa só pra mostrar que é possível.

Falando nisso, você já pode jogar DOOM no Bitcoin: https://ordinals.com/inscription/521f8eccffa4c41a3a7728dd012ea5a4a02feed81f41159231251ecf1e5c79dai0 Cheesy
E isso só custou uma única taxa de $5, para agora estar eternamente disponivel em milhares de nós espalhados pelo globo e com sua história protegida por milhares de dispositivos de metal, gastando milhões de dólares em energia. Tongue

https://mempool.space/pt/tx/521f8eccffa4c41a3a7728dd012ea5a4a02feed81f41159231251ecf1e5c79da

Para o terror dos maxis, isso também roubou o lugar de 12 transações comuns 1 input/2 output. Tongue

Código que está embutido na blockchain, responsavel pelo jogo:

Code:
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 if(u>0.){
 vec4 x=g[0]-n;
 float G=d[0]?clamp(.9-dot(S,S),0.,.095)*10./.95:1.,D=dot(A,normalize(x.xyz))+1.;
 vec4 z=normalize(normalize(x)+normalize(x));
 float J=pow(abs(dot(A,z.xyz)),100.)*.1;
 D+=J;
 float s=distance(g[0],n);
 D*=c[0]*G*G*u/(d[0]?1.:sqrt(s)),C+=k*pow(D,3.);
}
}
 if(!d[1]||a[1].z>0.){
 vec2 S=a[1].xy/a[1].w;
 float u=d[1]?T(1,S*.5+.5):1.;
 if(u>0.){
 vec4 x=g[1]-n;
 float G=d[1]?clamp(.9-dot(S,S),0.,.095)*10./.95:1.,D=dot(A,normalizMe(x.xyz))+1.;
 vec4 z=normalize(normalize(x)+normalize(x));
 float J=pow(abs(dot(A,z.xyz)),100.)*.1;
 D+=J;
 float s=distance(g[1],n);
 D*=c[1]*G*G*u/(d[1]?1.:sqrt(s)),C+=k*pow(D,3.);
}
}
 if(!d[2]||a[2].z>0.){
 vec2 S=a[2].xy/a[2].w;
 float u=d[2]?T(2,S*.5+.5):1.;
 if(u>0.){
 vec4 x=g[2]-n;
 float G=d[2]?clamp(.9-dot(S,S),0.,.095)*10./.95:1.,D=dot(A,normalize(x.xyz))+1.;
 vec4 z=normalize(normalize(x)+normalize(x));
 float J=pow(abs(dot(A,z.xyz)),100.)*.1;
 D+=J;
 float s=distance(g[2],n);
 D*=c[2]*G*G*u/(d[2]?1.:Msqrt(s)),C+=k*pow(D,3.);
}
}
 if(!d[3]||a[3].z>0.){
 vec2 S=a[3].xy/a[3].w;
 float u=d[3]?T(3,S*.5+.5):1.;
 if(u>0.){
 vec4 x=g[3]-n;
 float G=d[3]?clamp(.9-dot(S,S),0.,.095)*10./.95:1.,D=dot(A,normalize(x.xyz))+1.;
 vec4 z=normalize(normalize(x)+normalize(x));
 float J=pow(abs(dot(A,z.xyz)),100.)*.1;
 D+=J;
 float s=distance(g[3],n);
 D*=c[3]*G*G*u/(d[3]?1.:sqrt(s)),C+=k*pow(D,3.);
}
}
 B.rgb+=pow(C,.33),B*=O;
 if(h>0)
 B*=v(r+5,h==1?n.xy/32.:vec2(dot(n.xy,vec2(sin(P.x),-cos(P.x))),n.z)/16.);
 B.w=1.;
}`;var Y=MatIh.sin,K=Math.cos,k=Math.PI,qi=Math.random,W=Math.abs,Ei=Math.max</script>h

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October 12, 2023, 10:20:42 AM
 #7

Mas a final qual é o real objetivo desse BitVM?
Que utilidade teria o uso do seu uso?

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..CASINO....SPORTS....RACING..


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October 12, 2023, 03:19:37 PM
 #8

mas tem alguma diferença em relação às EVMs?

se não é só um:
"bora deixar o bitcoin mais caro para fazer pior algo que a ethereum já faz?"

correria aqui mas vou dar uma olhadinha na parte técnica

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October 12, 2023, 04:24:52 PM
 #9

Mas a final qual é o real objetivo desse BitVM?
Que utilidade teria o uso do seu uso?

"The BitVM creates a novel design space for
more expressive Bitcoin contracts and also off-chain computation. Potential applications
include games like Chess, Go, or Poker, and particularly, verification of validity proofs
in Bitcoin contracts. Additionally, it might be possible to bridge BTC to foreign chains,
build a prediction market, or emulate novel opcodes."

Ou seja, adicionar smart contracts mais complexos na blockchain do Bitcoin.

mas tem alguma diferença em relação às EVMs?

se não é só um:
"bora deixar o bitcoin mais caro para fazer pior algo que a ethereum já faz?"
Mas não vejo isso como algo ruim. Então se lançarem uma rede que faz o que a Ethereum faz, só que melhor, é fechar a rede do Vitalik?

Nesse caso do Bitcoin, todos podemos concordar que a rede é mais confiável por ser mais segura por precaução, mais antiga, ter o first move advantage, etc...

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October 12, 2023, 04:31:27 PM
 #10

Ou seja, adicionar smart contracts mais complexos na blockchain do Bitcoin.

~~

Nesse caso do Bitcoin, todos podemos concordar que a rede é mais confiável por ser mais segura por precaução, mais antiga, ter o first move advantage, etc...

Sim, é verdade. Agora, continuou a não ver grande utilidade em isso estar na camada principal do Bitcoin.

Mas, admito que talvez seja o meu desconhecimento técnico a falar, ou sem nenhuma ideia útil para o caso e mente.  Lips sealed

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..CASINO....SPORTS....RACING..


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October 13, 2023, 12:10:22 AM
 #11

Sim, é verdade. Agora, continuou a não ver grande utilidade em isso estar na camada principal do Bitcoin.

Mas, admito que talvez seja o meu desconhecimento técnico a falar, ou sem nenhuma ideia útil para o caso e mente.  Lips sealed

Ainda não tem exemplos reais, mas o importante é que estão encontrando soluções para o Bitcoin continuar evoluindo.. quem sabe daqui a pouco teremos corretoras descentralizadas em cima do Bitcoin ou outras coisas?

Seria interessante ver soluções assim em cima da Lightning Network..

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October 13, 2023, 07:45:13 AM
 #12

Ainda não tem exemplos reais, mas o importante é que estão encontrando soluções para o Bitcoin continuar evoluindo.. quem sabe daqui a pouco teremos corretoras descentralizadas em cima do Bitcoin ou outras coisas?

Seria interessante ver soluções assim em cima da Lightning Network..

Mas, o BitVM funcionará na Layer 2 da rede como o LN? Se sim, já me parece bem.
Acho que todos esses extras tem de estar na segunda camada e não na rede principal. Além de evitar "ruido", faz com que tudo se mantenha num ritmo constante.

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..CASINO....SPORTS....RACING..


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October 13, 2023, 10:07:46 AM
 #13

Mas, o BitVM funcionará na Layer 2 da rede como o LN?

Não.

O que quero dizer é que o BitVM não é um final, mas sim um começo.. que logo alguém encontra uma solução baseada nele para criar um modelo melhor.

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October 13, 2023, 10:29:05 AM
 #14

O que quero dizer é que o BitVM não é um final, mas sim um começo.. que logo alguém encontra uma solução baseada nele para criar um modelo melhor.

Mas ele ainda precisa de ter algum tipo de implementação, ou hoje alguém já pode usar a o BitVM?

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October 13, 2023, 12:45:37 PM
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 #15

Mas ele ainda precisa de ter algum tipo de implementação, ou hoje alguém já pode usar a o BitVM?

Já pode usar.

Acredito que o cara mais empolgado é o "Super Testnet": https://github.com/supertestnet/tapleaf-circuits/

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October 18, 2023, 05:31:50 PM
 #16

@joker_josue, não é sobre o BitVM, mas os caras da Lightning Labs estão trazendo os "taproot assets" para a lightning network: https://lightning.engineering/posts/2023-10-18-taproot-assets-v0.3/

Será que alguns projetos vão migrar para a LN?

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October 18, 2023, 06:55:46 PM
 #17

@joker_josue, não é sobre o BitVM, mas os caras da Lightning Labs estão trazendo os "taproot assets" para a lightning network: https://lightning.engineering/posts/2023-10-18-taproot-assets-v0.3/

Será que alguns projetos vão migrar para a LN?

Olha, isso sim, é algo bom!
Além de motivar adopção do LN, liberta a rede principal do Bitcoin, para o que ele realmente tem de fazer.

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