Can CEX, institutional investors, whales, hinder or halt the growth of Bitcoin?

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

Source: https://www.thestreet.com/crypto/markets/ex-girlfriend-says-sam-bankman-fried-ftx-founder-illegally-manipulated-bitcoin-price
In her testimony, Caroline Ellison made numerous bombshell criminal accusations about SBF’s time at FTX. Taking the stand in the closely-watched trail over alleged fraud by Sam Bankman-Fried and collapsed crypto exchange FTX, former Alameda CEO and Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend Caroline Ellison made several dramatic accusations about crimes committed by the disgraced crypto mogul and the wider team under his watch.

“She said Sam conspired with her (on) a plan to keep the bitcoin price under $20,000, literal price manipulation,” Aaron Arnold said, referring to part of the testimony in which Ellison produced a document that read “Keep selling BTC if it’s over $20k.”

I was reading through some news article today and saw this headline that caught my attention which brought about this thought (the title of the thread; Can centralized exchanges, institutional investors or whales, hinder or halt the growth of Bitcoin?) If what Caroline Ellison said is true then how successful was Sam Bankman-Fried in keeping the price below $20,000? I believe we have to ask ourselves this question because if SBF was successful at doing this it means others might want to try it for their selfish benefits in the future and again that's my problem with centralized services, they want to manipulate everything so they can make the most profits from the market. We shouldn't be trusting or patronizing centralized service because we're giving them more power when we do this. If FTX was able to manipulate the price of Bitcoin, only God knows what Cz is doing over there at Binance Exchange.

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[Helena Yu]

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

Actually I don't understand why centralized exchange need to make the Bitcoin price below $20K, what's the point? they're making money from people who keep use their exchanges, so regardless what the Bitcoin price, they're still make profit.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

I was reading through some news article today and saw this headline that caught my attention which brought about this thought (the title of the thread; Can centralized exchanges, institutional investors or whales, hinder or halt the growth of Bitcoin?) If what Caroline Ellison said is true then how successful was Sam Bankman-Fried in keeping the price below $20,000? I believe we have to ask ourselves this question because if SBF was successful at doing this it means others might want to try it for their selfish benefits in the future and again that's my problem with centralized services, they want to manipulate everything so they can make the most profits from the market. We shouldn't be trusting or patronizing centralized service because we're giving them more power when we do this. If FTX was able to manipulate the price of Bitcoin, only God knows what Cz is doing over there at Binance Exchange.

It seems to me that one of the biggest threats to bitcoin from centralized institutions is the fractional reserve system (that's where FTX failed). I'm talking about a situation in which there will be 21 million bitcoins in the network, but in "circulation" there will be 121 million, because 10 million will be kept by people on CEX, banks, centralized wallets, with a hiden fractional reserve of 10%.

My thread warning about this from 2019 (3 ​​years before the collapse of FTX)
Money creation system - is bitcoin creation resistant?

[mk4]

because if SBF was successful at doing this it means others might want to try it for their selfish benefits in the future and again that's my problem with centralized services, they want to manipulate everything so they can make the most profits from the market.

FWIW, not all centralized exchanges tries to manipulate markets, because they don't need to. All they want are those exchange fees that users pay when conducting trades. The thing with FTX is that they have a trading arm — Alameda Research.

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

It's an attempt to control price, not the protocol.

Actually I don't understand why centralized exchange need to make the Bitcoin price below $20K, what's the point? they're making money from people who keep use their exchanges, so regardless what the Bitcoin price, they're still make profit.

It's just FTX, not all centralized exchanges. It's likely that they have a short position.

[Zaguru12]

The answer to the question is were they able to manipulate it? NO, because the price of bitcoin around the time FTX was still a functioning exchange doesn’t look like what was manipulated, we only saw a heavy fall when the FTX exchange fell and it wasn’t only the cause as at the end of the year, they were crises like high cost of energy for mining due to Russian- Ukraine heated war then, bankruptcy of certain banks like Silvergate and so on.

Yes I believe centralized exchanges or big whales will (or would have) definitely be having thoughts of how they will manipulate the bitcoin market to their favor. But the only thing that can manipulate it heavy Selling at a very low price and this is not much possible because for central body to keep the price at certain level they need to be selling off their millions of bitcoin in their holdings at such or lower price. And that leads to the question how many of this bitcoin do they have that they can spare to sell off to keep the price down?

But just as you said if they can habour this kind of thoughts it will be scary to know what they’ve been doing to the users funds in their possessions. I’m beginning to like all this SBF and FTX saga at least it will open the eyes of those trusting centralized exchanges with their funds

[_act_]

As bitcoin marketcap is getting bigger, the less likely there would be effectively manipulation because with this, more people will hold bitcoin and more organizations will have it in a way that manipulation will not likely occur.

But people should stop holding on exchanges like Binance and other custodial means to avoid possible manipulation.

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

SBF is using FTX customers bitcoin without their consent.

[Z-tight]

BTC price manipulation is possible because weak hands react to price movements and crypto events or news, i don't know how exactly SBF wanted to manipulate the price of BTC and keep it below $20k, the source also didn't carry that information, but it is either they planned to sell a large amount of their BTC's and then influence weak hands to sell too.

Anyway, SBF is a clown who was running a crypto exchange like it was a joke, so it is possible he didn't even know what he wanted to do or how to do it. By the way, price manipulation is nothing to be concerned about as it cannot be sustained for a long time, and the people who are moved by it are the weak hands.

[Sim_card]

Really wee need not to give this exchanges power for them to think that they can manipulate the price of bitcoin because of greed by patronizing them. I believe that no one can manipulate the price of bitcoin for long, but only for a short time. If SBF tried to manipulate the market price by keeping bitcoin below $20k, this was the reason of FTX crash because it is impossible for someone that is not in custody of all the bitcoin to do such. He can only think and try but he will never succeed and this is what makes bitcoin decentralized. Whatever Cz is trying to do on how to manipulate the price of bitcoin wouldn't work out because he wasn't the one that created bitcoin, they will only try and keep failing. More people are adopting bitcoin and the number of people moving their bitcoin from exchanges to their noncustodial wallet is also increasing.

[bayu7adi]

Actually I don't understand why centralized exchange need to make the Bitcoin price below $20K, what's the point? they're making money from people who keep use their exchanges, so regardless what the Bitcoin price, they're still make profit.

Such is human nature, often feeling dissatisfied with the money they currently possess and continually seeking more through various means. They've already earned money from the services they provide, yet greed continues to haunt them until they're driven to pursue wealth relentlessly. When they gain the power to manipulate the market and exploit it for personal gain or the benefit of a group, they're not hesitant to do so, even if it means disregarding existing norms.

As for the activities of FTX, aiming to hold the price of Bitcoin, this constitutes a serious violation. In the world of stocks, holding the price of a stock is essentially a breach of stock regulations. It can be misused for short selling. In the cryptocurrency realm, it's not much different; by holding the price at 20k, it can yield distinct profits for market manipulators.

[Rruchi man]

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

It would have been nice to know how it was done or how they planned to do it, that is the plan they conspired on to keep the bitcoin price under $20,000 when they did not own all the bitcoins. It is not just possible that she said this if her and SBF had never discussed about this, so I do not totally consider it as a bullshit talk.

An insight on how they really planned to do it would have helped us understand more and better just how much power CEX, institutional investors and whales have.

[Best-mary]

Source: https://www.thestreet.com/crypto/markets/ex-girlfriend-says-sam-bankman-fried-ftx-founder-illegally-manipulated-bitcoin-price
In her testimony, Caroline Ellison made numerous bombshell criminal accusations about SBF’s time at FTX. Taking the stand in the closely-watched trail over alleged fraud by Sam Bankman-Fried and collapsed crypto exchange FTX, former Alameda CEO and Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend Caroline Ellison made several dramatic accusations about crimes committed by the disgraced crypto mogul and the wider team under his watch.

“She said Sam conspired with her (on) a plan to keep the bitcoin price under $20,000, literal price manipulation,” Aaron Arnold said, referring to part of the testimony in which Ellison produced a document that read “Keep selling BTC if it’s over $20k.”

I was reading through some news article today and saw this headline that caught my attention which brought about this thought (the title of the thread; Can centralized exchanges, institutional investors or whales, hinder or halt the growth of Bitcoin?) If what Caroline Ellison said is true then how successful was Sam Bankman-Fried in keeping the price below $20,000? I believe we have to ask ourselves this question because if SBF was successful at doing this it means others might want to try it for their selfish benefits in the future and again that's my problem with centralized services, they want to manipulate everything so they can make the most profits from the market. We shouldn't be trusting or patronizing centralized service because we're giving them more power when we do this. If FTX was able to manipulate the price of Bitcoin, only God knows what Cz is doing over there at Binance Exchange.

If so, then all these companies stacking Bitcoin can make it pump too. I don't believe this, the reason BTC fell so hard was because of fear. People kept selling in other to avoid getting sink along with the ship. Not all cex has time manipulating their users funds like FTX did

[OcTradism]

If what Caroline Ellison said is true then how successful was Sam Bankman-Fried in keeping the price below $20,000?

Sam Bankman Fried and FTX were only some of Bitcoin whales and market makers, in the past. The Bitcoin market is bigger than one Bitcoin whale like SBF or one big centralized exchange like FTX. This market has been becoming bigger a lot than some years ago when Mt.Gox dominated the Bitcoin market and its crash caused many big impacts on Bitcoin market. But eventually Bitcoin was well and recovered, grown up more till now.

FTX and SBF will be called more in future like news about Mt.Gox still is reused many times but I disagree that a single whale can control Bitcoin price. Whales come and go but Bitcoin is here, Bitcoin market is here and they are King, whales are not Kings.

[DeathAngel]

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

Actually I don't understand why centralized exchange need to make the Bitcoin price below $20K, what's the point? they're making money from people who keep use their exchanges, so regardless what the Bitcoin price, they're still make profit.

I dunno, the last bull run was definitely suppressed, we got two rounded tops of 65k & 69k, no parabolic blow off top like previous times. I guess COVID & China ban (again) could have played a part but FTX were selling customer bitcoin so if you think about it they were selling the same bitcoin’s over & over again to prop up FTT coin & apparently LUNA also. Effectively people were holding ‘paper bitcoin’ or just seeing a data entry as their bitcoin balance on the exchange. They were artificially inflating the 21,000,000 cap by selling coins they didn’t own themselves.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

No you don't need to hold the whole Bitcoin to manipulate the price. You just have to hold enough quantity to be able to detect how the price move and FTX had alot of users funds. The market can be easily influenced, it's full of inexperienced traders, they'll always follow the market trends that's why when Bitcoin starts dumping the market react by been bearish. People starts panicking and selling and that's where whales take advantage of the market by manipulation it. They can decide to sell a large quantities of Bitcoin to trigger the price declining.

It would have been nice to know how it was done or how they planned to do it, that is the plan they conspired on to keep the bitcoin price under $20,000 when they did not own all the bitcoins. It is not just possible that she said this if her and SBF had never discussed about this, so I do not totally consider it as a bullshit talk.

Ellison produced a document that read “Keep selling BTC if it’s over $20k.”

That answers the question, a directive was given to keep selling Bitcoin, centralized exchange use bot for Buying and selling to keep their market active so probably they would have program bot to be selling Bitcoin and keeping the price under $20k on FTX. The wouldn't have direct impact on other exchange but if they were able to keep Bitcoin under $20k on FTX it'll influence the price on other exchange as FTX was the second largest volume for trading. The investigation is still going, I'm pretty sure more secrets will be exposed as they betray each other.

If so, then all these companies stacking Bitcoin can make it pump too. I don't believe this, the reason BTC fell so hard was because of fear. People kept selling in other to avoid getting sink along with the ship. Not all cex has time manipulating their users funds like FTX did

What causes fear in the market, isn't it the decline in the price of Bitcoin so if an exchange can make the price of Bitcoin to stay below a particular price it'll cause fear among traders and they start selling to secure their profits. CEX manipulate the price on their exchange by either creating false sell others and it trigger stop loss of traders. We can't verify her statement but this puts more merit on the saying that CEX are manipulating the price of the coins listed on the exchange, maybe with Bitcoin it's very hard but with altcoins it's a piece of cake.

[Lucius]

~snip~
If what Caroline Ellison said is true then how successful was Sam Bankman-Fried in keeping the price below $20,000?

She (or anyone else in a similar situation) will say anything to save her own skin, and shift as much blame as possible to her boyfriend or whatever. Even if it is true that Bankman tried something like that, the fact is that he failed to keep his company afloat, let alone that he was able to influence the price of Bitcoin. People like Bankman are usually obsessed with controlling everything around them, it's just a question of how successful they can be in that, and from his example it is evident that he made all possible wrong moves that he could make.

Manipulations have always been a part of the market, and we should not live in the illusion that they do not happen when it comes to Bitcoin, which is very suitable for such things when it comes to trading.

[stompix]

~snip~
If what Caroline Ellison said is true then how successful was Sam Bankman-Fried in keeping the price below $20,000?

She (or anyone else in a similar situation) will say anything to save her own skin, and shift as much blame as possible to her boyfriend or whatever.

Wow, exactly what I was thinking when reading that, the dumb * will portray everyone around as the devil in disguise just to get out and make herself both look better and earn points for discussing this huge conspiracy!
Like I would trust her after the videos showing stuff like this:

“Our plan to wait for several months and for market environments to improve did not work out,” Ellison responded in part, giggling afterward.

Plus, I don't buy the reason why he would have suppressed the price, when you have a ton of coins you try to raise the value, selling coins means you have to actually give coins to people who would buy and withdraw, by simply buying with fake tokens you can print in unlimited numbers you have no problem.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

I was reading through some news article today and saw this headline that caught my attention which brought about this thought (the title of the thread; Can centralized exchanges, institutional investors or whales, hinder or halt the growth of Bitcoin?) If what Caroline Ellison said is true then how successful was Sam Bankman-Fried in keeping the price below $20,000? I believe we have to ask ourselves this question because if SBF was successful at doing this it means others might want to try it for their selfish benefits in the future and again that's my problem with centralized service

I don't see a reason why we should believe this, how are we sure that she's also telling the truth and not trying to blackmail him, if you can recall very well she's no more with him, she's an ex-girlfriend, secondly if we should still believe in this on a general view and opinion, we may likely portrait our support with the saying that Institutional holders of bitcoin are the ones controlling the market price of bitcoin when they hodl and many will begin to fear exchanges because they will believe that they are manipulating bitcoin price.

[Poker Player]

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

I take as bullshit what Caroline Ellison edison said, but not the questions raised by the OP. The price of gold has long been known to be manipulated by futures contracts and the like, and now that bitcoin will increasingly be traded in a similar way, with ETFs. futures and leveraged positions, and that the price and market cap become more stable as the asset matures, it is going to be more possible to manipulate it by big players.

[Eternad]

I take it as a bullshit because the only way to control Bitcoin price is you need to own all Bitcoins, while FTX isn't own all Bitcoins.

It would have been nice to know how it was done or how they planned to do it, that is the plan they conspired on to keep the bitcoin price under $20,000 when they did not own all the bitcoins. It is not just possible that she said this if her and SBF had never discussed about this, so I do not totally consider it as a bullshit talk.

An insight on how they really planned to do it would have helped us understand more and better just how much power CEX, institutional investors and whales have.

Simple, They have customers money both Bitcoin and other stablecoins which they can us to open a position with margin since they have a complete control on their exchange. Typically other exchange just use the average price in the market which FTX that time provides one of the huge volume in the market.

They can simply counter all the whales that will push the price up on different exchange by dumping the price their own exchange. No single whale can beat an exchange that use the whole customer money on a trade war.

[famososMuertos]

The issue always falls on the users, no one forces them to go to a CEX but their financial "morphology" attracts them, and that's where the problem begins, or the decline, the uncertainty, then we have the old scheme of "one" controlling "many." "and no one controls "him", well, he is controlled by the essence that made the existence of bitcoin, it is a vicious circle, where the weak link, despite everything that a DEX offers to escape from that situation, "people," the weak link.

Can CEX, institutional investors, whales, hinder or halt the growth of Bitcoin?
I mentioned it recently in a similar discussion idea, all those protagonists mentioned in your question are not trustworthy, they use bitcoin with the idea of making a double expense. (that is, his idea is his own benefit, he cares little about the sender)