how businesses swindle the minimum wage employee

[franky1]

i was having a discussion with someone who was talking about the pro's and cons of his minimum wage job

he told me he works for 40hours a week at ~£$10 an hour for 52 weeks. =£$20800 pretax
he then says how in some countries they do not do paid time off. and how he gets 4weeks off fully paid. and he gets into detail that if he takes his £$20.8k and divides it by 48 and then 40, he is actually earning £$10.83 an hour

and this is where i then ask him
what hours does he leave home to go to work and then get home
he tells me the store opens at 9am and closes at 6pm but he has to be there at 8:45 to brief the days needs and exits at 6:15pm once all customers have left and doors are shut officially and securely

so this is not 8 hours obviously, but instead 9 hours 30 minutes
he says the hour extra is an unpaid breaks of 1x30min and 2x 15 minutes

i say to him in those unpaid breaks does he have enough FREE time to exit the business and do some personal chores unrestricted. he says no, he has to be in the vicinity of the workplace because he will get penalised if late back from lunch and the 15min breaks are not enough time to go anywhere personally without guaranteed penalty

so i get into detail with him.
for those 48 weeks of working of 5 days of 9.5hours for $20.8k pretax = 2280 hours / £$20.8k =£$9.12 an hour

i then inform him that this amount should be for his time. where i then enquire about his other costs just to be able to work.
so he tells me he spends about £$2 in fuel per day. and the £$6 on laundry and lunch(buys instore sandwich, drink,snack deal)
so out of the £$80 a day income for 9.5 hours he is only actually paid £$72 for his time

and now he works it out. he only gets £$8.20 per hour of his time of being in the vicinity of his workplace and not at home leisurely

.. we then started to debate the details, EG saving £$4 buy prepping meals at home for £$1 instead of £$4 and doing home batched clothes washing once a week instead of £$2 a day laundry

but even with all this, the number was far far below the $10 on contract and £$10.83 he thought he was getting if he deducted vacation time from his labour time

it just goes to show how little things like a restrictive activity unpaid lunch and extra start and end unpaid time before the business opens can take money way from your real life time

imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour where they will compensate you for taking time out of your life to do things for them, under their policy.. but then not even getting £$10 an hour for your actual time spent out of your life

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

[stompix]

imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour

And here is where you lost the crowd franky!!!

I'm really curious about the percentage of people who would start taking navigation courses and sail over 7 seas for that! Oh, screw that, look at the millions flooding Europe for even less than that, risking their life and leaving their families behind all for far less than that.
Redo the math for someone in the garment industry in Bangladesh or Vietnam, and then, when you ask if your entire life is worth $1000 you will realize the full meaning of "First World problem".

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

Grabbing popcorn and waiting for how this will turn for most of the users here, immediately after they hear they were supposed to have more than a 5-minute break during their 12-hour shift.

he tells me he spends about £$2 in fuel per day

Hmm, some of the largest communities here, Pakistan   29 motor vehicles/1000 people,  India 59, Nigeria 61.....United Kingdom 600.
First World problem!!!!  

[Don Pedro Dinero]

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

For me that is not the issue. The question is, is that illegal in the UK? You are talking about the UK as I understand it. Well, if it is illegal, he can report it to the labour authorities.

He can start here:

Pay and work rights helpline and complaints

If the labour law allows it, he has nothing to do but try to change jobs.

[EL MOHA]

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

This is will have been a very good advice if at all we have enough jobs available for everyone and you get to select and if it doesn’t meet your requirements or too exhausting for you, you move to other jobs. But with the figures you put out now, many will definitely take this job with an happy heart, sadly that’s what we have been reduced to. There are many that work more hours than this and get 2x less of this, and they still accept because as they say when the desirable becomes unavailable, the available becomes desirable.

The only better alternative to this kind of work hour jobs is the fixed payment rate which again are mostly government paid jobs and those are the ones that we hardly get recruited for.

So sadly it will be hard to get companies or organization pay you for just few minutes taking off the job, because it seems to be their policy all round, as this can also be related to their lack of productivity in those resting hours which in turns result to lack of profit too

[Helena Yu]

I'm not really sure how's your life in your country if you get paid $20800 pretax per year, but in third world countries you're a millionaire and most of people want to become you.

People who live in third world countries will do anything in order to work, if you think he should get paid extra for 1.5 hours per day he spent, here it's really normal and it's more than 1.5 hours. It could be 2 hours, 3 hours etc and the company will said it's a proof if you're loyal with the company.

If you don't agree with that they can fired you or do something to make you not happy. The company has nothing to lose because there are many unemployment out there that can replace their current employees.

Many employees even willing to have a sex with the employer in order to get promoted.

[Ultegra134]

Unfortunately, it's quite common to work off-schedule by going to work a little earlier and also leaving a few minutes after your shift is practically over. Moreover, the unpaid breaks should be included in your usually legal 8-hour shift, not as an extra. Your acquaintance, as you mentioned yourself, spends more than 9.5 hours in the vicinity of his workplace. He's spending his whole day practically just for work; 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. are way too long hours to be away. Not to mention how much time you spend communicating back and forth, and you're practically away from home for over 10 or even 11 hours, depending on how far your job is.

Ultimately, you're spending a lot more time than you're thinking about without being paid for it. I doubt that anyone would pay you for commuting, but arriving earlier and leaving a few minutes later should be paid, and unfortunately, it's something very common, and I have experienced it myself too.

[franky1]

its not about the # amount specifically..
its not about comparisons to 3rd world countries

lets clarify things. the person i spoke with was british working in britain thinking he was getting better than minimum wage due to him discounting vacation time from his income amount math of his labour..

the point is about the contract of if a business wants you to use 9.5 hours of your life per day where you are not free to do your own lifestyle enjoyment, due to having to meet expectations of a business, where they suggest to pay you the minimum of any countries legally limit.. but then even then. you are not actually getting paid that amount for your time

as for those comparing to other countries.. ok lets go extreme(not using specific £$ numbers)
imagine if the min wage was # an hour, in a food service. where they say the restaurant only opens between 2pm-9pm where they contract you for # * 7 a day for those 7 hours of opening time...... but they expect you to turn up at 1pm to prep the ingredients, wash down the tables and heat up the fryers before your work day(opening hours) begins.. and then at 9pm, not leave, but hang around and try to hurry up the slow eating customers and then turn down the fryers and leave by 10pm
you are giving them 9 hours of time but paid for 7hours

i have seen many in the food industry turn up early, leave late, unpaid.. just to keep the business operational.

i do not mind it if the employee is salaried to a fair income of above minimum wage to put in extra time/effort to help the business.. but when i hear how poor people are not even getting minimum wage for their time. thats a double insult to them..


if a business cannot operate by paying even the most basic legal requirement. that business should not operate. and people should not slave themselves just to keep a business in operation

[panganib999]

This is common business practice, people already know how much they are getting fucked over by companies and all that shit, it's all a matter of choosing which master feeds you well and ties you on a longer leash, for the most part, since most of us here are minimum wage earners let's be real here, we don't get to choose who to serve, heck if that's not the case we wouldn't be out here scrambling for job interviews. In any case, systems sucks, all that shit, but we don't get to really do anything about it cause every single one of us have mouths to feed.

I say if you're not comfortable working on site, look into freelancing, but you'll be surprised to find how messed up the entry system to that world is as well.

[Jawhead999]

Too many variables: you need to make sure the court/authority in your country are objective, you need to spend money or time to report it and you need to make sure if your country have a law about that.

If the contract is paid per hour, you have a chance to win. But if the contract is paid per day, that's quite hard.

if a business cannot operate by paying even the most basic legal requirement. that business should not operate. and people should not slave themselves just to keep a business in operation

You can't expect every business have a good moral and at the same time hoping people to quit a job that pay lows because as a business will try to make money as much as possible and as a worker, he need to feed himself including his family.

[zaim7413]

I am very curious about the facts you just told me, many assumptions and speculations have arisen after reading everything you wrote in Op.
He (the person you mean) works there based on a personal agreement or with an employment contract attached.?
If he works based on a collective agreement without a written agreement in the employment contract which is supported by labor law, he cannot dispute working hours that exceed the limit because he must follow the rules set at his workplace.

There will always be pros and cons to the minimum wage that employees receive. If an employee feels he is being treated as a cash cow at his workplace, he can immediately resign from that place. Logically, before a work agreement is entered into, the wages that the employee will receive are always discussed. If he feels that his wages are insufficient or below standard, he can immediately refuse to work there.

[benalexis12]

I'm not really sure how's your life in your country if you get paid $20800 pretax per year, but in third world countries you're a millionaire and most of people want to become you.

People who live in third world countries will do anything in order to work, if you think he should get paid extra for 1.5 hours per day he spent, here it's really normal and it's more than 1.5 hours. It could be 2 hours, 3 hours etc and the company will said it's a proof if you're loyal with the company.

If you don't agree with that they can fired you or do something to make you not happy. The company has nothing to lose because there are many unemployment out there that can replace their current employees.

Many employees even willing to have a sex with the employer in order to get promoted.

20800$ in a year's income is a big income here in our country because the regular or ordinary employee here who works in the company usually earns only 2500$–3000$ in a year. Now, if you are a supervisor or manager, it ranges around $5,000–$7,000 a year.

This is the situation here in our country, so it means you can be considered a rich person with that kind of income every year, or, let's say, a middle-class type person in this world.

[Casdinyard]

I am very curious about the facts you just told me, many assumptions and speculations have arisen after reading everything you wrote in Op.
He (the person you mean) works there based on a personal agreement or with an employment contract attached.?
If he works based on a collective agreement without a written agreement in the employment contract which is supported by labor law, he cannot dispute working hours that exceed the limit because he must follow the rules set at his workplace.

There will always be pros and cons to the minimum wage that employees receive. If an employee feels he is being treated as a cash cow at his workplace, he can immediately resign from that place. Logically, before a work agreement is entered into, the wages that the employee will receive are always discussed. If he feels that his wages are insufficient or below standard, he can immediately refuse to work there.

It's not about the "rules" or whatever really. it's whatever bs these businesses and companies are putting up under the guise of "workplace rules" just to one up on the average employee. They're always doing this since the industrial revolution and just because everyone's abiding by it doesn't make it any less inhumane. The point of the discussion is how smart these businesses are at hiding their immoral practices against employees, the fact that you're asking for the specifics of OP's friend's contractual agreement is already a good sign that you're pretty much down with this situation cause "it's what the contract says lol so you can't argue about it anymore". It's a little sad that you're thinking that way really.

[BIT-BENDER]

i say to him in those unpaid breaks does he have enough FREE time to exit the business and do some personal chores unrestricted. he says no, he has to be in the vicinity of the workplace because he will get penalised if late back from lunch and the 15min breaks are not enough time to go anywhere personally without guaranteed penalty

This here is not a personal break it's just a break for the individual to benefit from but rather the company benefits from this because the person takes time away to rest and get more energy and nothing else just to come back to work. It's more like when you let your working machines cool off after consistently using it for long hours .

I think at the end of the day and as years goes by the employee would see that he or she has been played in life because you wasted long time working for someone without really finding a way to work for yourself, it's a slave mentality.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

With the rate of how inflation had affected so many part of the economy, we cannot concluded that minimum wages is the best offer to help lives dependencies on the economy considering those that are not self employed, it has been an hacculian task for one to earn enough through the effect of inflation when the minimum wage on each job offered is not increasing, some are not even paying the required minimum wage on their employees right before the inflation got to this far, employees are the ones suffering the cause while business owners aren't doing anything about it.

[tjtonmoy]

Imagine someone not getting paid after all his works and it is not based on hourly rate instead it's a fixed amount that you get every month. £$20.8k? Imagine a guy from a Third World country getting this job. It will be life-changing for him. But I don't think the comparison should be logical. You are getting paid higher also you are paying higher for everything. On the other hand, in a Third World country you are getting paid less but you are also paying less compared to first world country.
If I get paid $200 a month I would hesitate to pay $50 for bills. But in a country where I am getting paid thousands of dollars $100 bill won't matter that much. So the problem varies from country to country and their economic situation.

Coming to the main point of the OP. If he is okay with what he is getting and living a decent life then that 1.5 hour won't matter that much. He's happy with his life, so why make it complicated? If you start to think that every hour of your life counts, or it is valuable and you should get paid for that, then that's not right. Be happy with what you are getting right now. You may not have it in the future.

[kryptqnick]

I agree with the op's reasoning, but I'd also add the time of going to work and going home to the big picture. After all, a person must waste that time on the road, and it's done precisely for the purpose of working there.
It's also interesting to me that you count the wage pre-tax. I guess it's because the taxation differs in many countries based on circumstances. In my country the wage is always discussed post-tax because the employer collects the tax on behalf of the employees, and the taxes are not flexible, so it's usually the same rate for everyone.
That being said, £10 or even the adjusted £8.2 per hour is considered a very decent payment per hour in my country, well above the minimum wage of around £1 per hour post-tax. So yeah, I do believe that should be accounted for as well. And, needless to say, everything is not 10 times less expensive here. The difference overall is around 2.5 times.

[bittraffic]

That 1.5 hours is like an employee doing the extra mile to make sure the business still runs after a month and if not, boath the employee and the employer will capsize. Consider it a mutual sacrifice for the employer so that they are both going to make it.

People today are just happy to have a job than evicted from their apartment because of the overdue. They are not going to mind that extra hour and half this time. Unless it means losing a meal if it's not paid.

[Faisal2202]

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

This a good and productive topic, but what about tips and bonuses, are there any, I mean if your friend is being rewarded with tips or bonuses then after recalculating the earnings, we might reach to $10 per hour or maybe exceed it. Overall, I used to have this thought back in the previous month of September, I am a tuition teacher, and I got another batch of students to teach outside of the city and my expenses to go there were around 2k pkr (in local currency).

They were paying me around 14k pkr and after deducting the fuel and other expenses, I left with around 11k Pkr. Which was also enough for the 2-hour job of teaching 4 students only. But still, I was getting less paid in comparison to the market, the rates should be around 20k pkr but the middleman who found me that job fixed the deal at 14k pkr. Well, I left it, as I can do more productive work in those 2 hours so I think I should leave it.

Well, if your friend thinks, he is still getting paid less and he can not meet his expenses then he should ask for an increment but to do that, he should have a good approach to his boss.

[franky1]

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

This a good and productive topic, but what about tips and bonuses, are there any,
..
Well, if your friend thinks, he is still getting paid less and he can not meet his expenses then he should ask for an increment but to do that, he should have a good approach to his boss.

no tips
and no .. tips should not substitute minimum wage. tips are suppose to be a gratuity ontop of wages.. i understand some countries have a different minimum wage for cafe waitresses, but again if a business cannot support its longevity by even paying the minimum/living wage. it should not be operating

[ZAINmalik75]

That 1.5 hours is like an employee doing the extra mile to make sure the business still runs after a month and if not, boath the employee and the employer will capsize. Consider it a mutual sacrifice for the employer so that they are both going to make it.

You might be not fully right because, in this scenario, the the store owner will be the one making more money. And the employees are the ones who have to sacrifice more, they have to bear more, even if they have more burden of work on themselves. Sacrifice is mutual but not equal, good employers make mutual and equal sacrifices while bad ones don't.

We should avoid bad employers and should take action against them too, but for an ordinary person, that's not even an option, because they are not aware of their rights, they should know how to talk to them and how to make them agree on their requirements or specific salary. But you are right that, both employer and employee have to spend the amount that OP has mentioned, on their daily life expenses and they both have to use that money from the earnings they both are making.

People today are just happy to have a job than evicted from their apartment because of the overdue. They are not going to mind that extra hour and half this time. Unless it means losing a meal if it's not paid.

That's so accurate, but in my thought, they should now be happy, and they are not happy, they just don't have any option to ignore a job, even if it is paying less. In our country, many youngsters are leaving the country to earn $500 a month which they cannot earn in this country and of course they have no other choice but to leave the country.