how businesses swindle the minimum wage employee

[Fortify]

i was having a discussion with someone who was talking about the pro's and cons of his minimum wage job

he told me he works for 40hours a week at ~£$10 an hour for 52 weeks. =£$20800 pretax
he then says how in some countries they do not do paid time off. and how he gets 4weeks off fully paid. and he gets into detail that if he takes his £$20.8k and divides it by 48 and then 40, he is actually earning £$10.83 an hour

and this is where i then ask him
what hours does he leave home to go to work and then get home
he tells me the store opens at 9am and closes at 6pm but he has to be there at 8:45 to brief the days needs and exits at 6:15pm once all customers have left and doors are shut officially and securely

so this is not 8 hours obviously, but instead 9 hours 30 minutes
he says the hour extra is an unpaid breaks of 1x30min and 2x 15 minutes

i say to him in those unpaid breaks does he have enough FREE time to exit the business and do some personal chores unrestricted. he says no, he has to be in the vicinity of the workplace because he will get penalised if late back from lunch and the 15min breaks are not enough time to go anywhere personally without guaranteed penalty

so i get into detail with him.
for those 48 weeks of working of 5 days of 9.5hours for $20.8k pretax = 2280 hours / £$20.8k =£$9.12 an hour

i then inform him that this amount should be for his time. where i then enquire about his other costs just to be able to work.
so he tells me he spends about £$2 in fuel per day. and the £$6 on laundry and lunch(buys instore sandwich, drink,snack deal)
so out of the £$80 a day income for 9.5 hours he is only actually paid £$72 for his time

and now he works it out. he only gets £$8.20 per hour of his time of being in the vicinity of his workplace and not at home leisurely

.. we then started to debate the details, EG saving £$4 buy prepping meals at home for £$1 instead of £$4 and doing home batched clothes washing once a week instead of £$2 a day laundry

but even with all this, the number was far far below the $10 on contract and £$10.83 he thought he was getting if he deducted vacation time from his labour time

it just goes to show how little things like a restrictive activity unpaid lunch and extra start and end unpaid time before the business opens can take money way from your real life time

imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour where they will compensate you for taking time out of your life to do things for them, under their policy.. but then not even getting £$10 an hour for your actual time spent out of your life

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

Are you talking about pounds or dollars, are you seem to keep mixing the currency signs up. Your calculation also ignores, rather foolishly I might add, that the person is getting PAID holiday - it's not four weeks off without pay like the conclusion you have ended up at. The laws around break times are partly defined to protect workers from being forced to work 8 hours straight and give them a break, although many businesses also add an extra half an hour to their benefit. Then you start coming up with hypotheticals about how much people are spending on different activities including cooking and laundry, which can be completely off track as people budget and shop differently. The minimum wage is a great thing to have, as the alternative would be even LESS money in peoples pocket if businesses forced employees to accept any wage. It's not meant to be the perfect solution and the top paying job, it is entry level wages which can just about sustain people in most parts of the UK - which you can tell is where you're really aiming this due to the amount of holiday and the pay rates. All round very poor arguments from your side.

[alani123]

Some might say that the details in the OP are pedantic. But honestly every little excuse just helps corporate interests.
If someone needs to work to survive then they're working class and there's no reason to adopt excuses that corporate interests make up.

Worker's rights are a very serious matter and we should be doing more to defend them collectively. In my country there are crazy labor rights violations everywhere.
For instance the law says that above 8hrs a worker should be paid overtime. But employers in Greece just EXPECT you to do 10 to 12 hour shifts in the tourist season as an employee without any extra money... And the law is ofc never enforced. In fact, our neoliberal government last year even fired the independent authority responsible for labor rights violations. If you're a worker, please organize. Don't let your country's working rights slip away like we did.

[icalical]

Getting $8/hours is already 4 times of minimum wage in here but set aside the currency conversion, from where I live, getting minimum wage meaning we could afford enough good meals and once a week entertainment, so $2 minimum wage in here is not that bad because the the cost of living is not that high either. But in here, for a permanent employee (non-freelance) most company also give allowance like for fuel, internet, and once a day meal, and other stuff. So the the salary we received is a net salary. But the extra hours for pre and post work hour briefing is the same, we need to give extra hour to the employers.

[franky1]

Are you talking about pounds or dollars, are you seem to keep mixing the currency signs up. Your calculation also ignores, rather foolishly I might add, that the person is getting PAID holiday - it's not four weeks off without pay like the conclusion you have ended up at. The laws around break times are partly defined to protect workers from being forced to work 8 hours straight and give them a break, although many businesses also add an extra half an hour to their benefit. Then you start coming up with hypotheticals about how much people are spending on different activities including cooking and laundry, which can be completely off track as people budget and shop differently. The minimum wage is a great thing to have, as the alternative would be even LESS money in peoples pocket if businesses forced employees to accept any wage. It's not meant to be the perfect solution and the top paying job, it is entry level wages which can just about sustain people in most parts of the UK - which you can tell is where you're really aiming this due to the amount of holiday and the pay rates. All round very poor arguments from your side.

try and read it again
i put both £$ in to articulate that the currency is not important. the scenario can apply if you are US or UK.. the actual £$# amount is not important nor needs to be exact as its just a rounded number for people to easily calculated..
the concept and context of the message was not the monetary numbers. it was the example of if # is the contract rate, but the other person thinks he is getting # * 1.083 due to vacations.. but then realises due to time spent within the business and not leisurely at home he is actually getting # * 0.82 it shows how even on the minimum people should get, they are not even getting that for their time.

the minimum wage is not a great thing when the legal amounts even by government standard are below poverty line amounts. the 'living wage' is a more higher rate that basic/unskilled work should begin at. but also people should be paid for the time taken out of their life to make a business money

when i see people THINK they are in a job offering great rewards, where they dont realise those "rewards" are the basic legal requirements. its not really rewarding, its suckers pay.. and when those same people then dont even get paid the full amount of suckers pay for their time at that basic poverty rate. its a double faceslap to them.

i do find it amusing how even people scammed out of a fair pay of even poverty amount still think its a bonus, reward that should dont be questioned. when people are doing hard work for poverty amounts and not even getting fair pay for their time. its not the business doing the employee a favour where the employee should be happy. its the business swindling its employees for the businesses benefit

[franky1]

Getting $8/hours is already 4 times of minimum wage in here but set aside the currency conversion, from where I live, getting minimum wage meaning we could afford enough good meals and once a week entertainment, so $2 minimum wage in here is not that bad because the the cost of living is not that high either. But in here, for a permanent employee (non-freelance) most company also give allowance like for fuel, internet, and once a day meal, and other stuff. So the the salary we received is a net salary. But the extra hours for pre and post work hour briefing is the same, we need to give extra hour to the employers.

dont get hooked up on the number specifics of the first post.. put it in your own prospective
you admit your minimum wage is $2...

well imagine your contracted for 8 hours a day ($16 a day income in contract)... but physically you are away from home doing things within a business policy, where they stipulate that you have to be at the place of work by 8:45 and cannot leave until 6:15  (9.5 hours of business needs)
where the business policy/schedule does not allow you to do your own personal time chores/lifestyle for those 9.5 hours a day. meaning you are suppose to get more the $16 a day because its not actually 8 hours but 9.5 hours thus should be $19 for your time taken away from your home life

[Plaguedeath]

@OP you're correct, but do you think your opinion can change the system?

Most of employees are hopeless and they're not dare to report the businesss to the authority, since most of the businesses like that, it's already become a new normal. Reporting one business means you're going to fight with every businesses and it's nothing new for people willing to destroy someone if they give a threat for their business.

[davis196]

imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour where they will compensate you for taking time out of your life to do things for them, under their policy.. but then not even getting £$10 an hour for your actual time spent out of your life

First and foremost, the employer doesn't pay for your TIME. He pays for your PRODUCTIVITY in that certain time frame.
Your life isn't worth 10 USD an hour. Your SKILLS are worth 10 USD on hour, or 20, or 30, or 50 USD an hour. It depends of how valued your skills are at the labor market.
Second, I agree that the employer must cover the transport costs of the employee for going from home to the job place.
Third, the problem is that many employers don't pay extra for working additional hours. Sometimes the employee works 10 hours for a day and the employer pays for 8 hours. This is where the syndicates and the government must step in and force the employers to pay for the full work, that is being done by the employees.

[bhadz]

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

That's the discussion that most of the employees have about how their employers are also invading their privacy and even their personal lives. You work based on the agreement and if it's outside the working hours, I agree that it should be paid as well but I'll choose not to get paid and I'll just ignore any inquiry that's beyond my working hours. That's better, looking for a work-life balance type of job is harder these days when most of the companies want to buy your life and family time with the minimum wage they pay you. Well, here in the Philippines minimum wage is much lower than the given on the OP since we're still a developing country but the situation is just the same on how these companies exploits employees.

[inthelongrun]

You have a good point OP. But it won't be easy in all parts of the world, especially in this time of crisis where employment is not even easy to find in many parts of the world. In my country, private companies are even starting to put into contract the minimum number of years the employee should work otherwise there will be penalties.

It's one of the reasons why I left my first job because I got a promotion but I need to sign a 5-year minimum service where I cannot dictate the location. There were also job offers that I declined even if some of them were higher because I prefer to work on my own time and place.

It is funny some people always criticize the West yet they also hope to live in the West and get a job in order to have a better life. it's not perfect but way better than most countries.

[CarnagexD]

This is common business practice, people already know how much they are getting fucked over by companies and all that shit, it's all a matter of choosing which master feeds you well and ties you on a longer leash, for the most part, since most of us here are minimum wage earners let's be real here, we don't get to choose who to serve, heck if that's not the case we wouldn't be out here scrambling for job interviews. In any case, systems sucks, all that shit, but we don't get to really do anything about it cause every single one of us have mouths to feed.

I say if you're not comfortable working on site, look into freelancing, but you'll be surprised to find how messed up the entry system to that world is as well.

This is very common in our country but this does not mean that this should be treated as if it is okay. People dont just have much options. Its like theyre caught in this endless loop of trying to find the best way to survive and they were stuck in these jobs that barely pay enough. No one legally complains because people got bills to pay and families to take care of. So they go job hunting, hoping for something better, but it's not like there are fantastic options out there waiting for them.

People like us who are privileged enough to even have the resources in this forum are fortunate but not everyone gets the resources. So youre right, we are constantly trying to find a way to escape the struggle, but the system just keeps throwing obstacles in our path. Everyone has to keep going so kudos to us for even trying!

@OP you're correct, but do you think your opinion can change the system?

I am certain that being silent or not having an opinion is worse. Bad things shouldnt be treated as normal.

[DrBeer]

I honestly didn't quite get the gist of the problem
The man made a choice, tried to prove to himself that it is so profitable for him.... So what ? Where is the problem ? Who cheated him ?  

By the way, the example of personnel "tied" to man-hours of presence at the workplace, this is one part of the labor market. There are a lot of specialties where the logic of the hourly rate loses its meaning. No, I understand that Europe has long adopted a scheme with payment based on the rate per hour. This scheme is really well suited to jobs where the workflow is exactly like that. For example, store clerk, construction worker, etc.
But there are a lot of other approaches, especially in times when a lot of people work remotely, or are hired for a project, or generally as outstaff. Here the model with an hourly wage is not very effective.
I can show by the example of my employees how we work - IT specialists, system administrators, developers for specific customers for the development of their systems. The scheme is extremely simple - a fixed amount of remuneration per month, plus profile KPIs. I don't care how much time a system administrator/programmer/... sits in the office, or rather I don't even want him to sit in the office Why not ? Because working from home with quality control and or/deadlines is more efficient:
- I, as an employer, do not incur additional costs for the maintenance and upkeep of workplaces
- the employee saves about 2 hours every day for traveling/ saves money for logistics/lunch/....
- working from home where you can manage your time is a great additional motivation for employees. I do not care whether he did the work from 9 to 18, or from 13 to 23 hours. I am interested in time and quality. And the employee is motivated to provide it (in time with a given quality), because he is comfortable working conditions, and he does not want to lose his job and go to "sit for 9 hours in the office".
And most importantly, I am a supporter of the concept - work should be evaluated by the result and not by the fatigue of the performer

[Natsuu]

You have a good point OP. But it won't be easy in all parts of the world, especially in this time of crisis where employment is not even easy to find in many parts of the world. In my country, private companies are even starting to put into contract the minimum number of years the employee should work otherwise there will be penalties.

It's one of the reasons why I left my first job because I got a promotion but I need to sign a 5-year minimum service where I cannot dictate the location. There were also job offers that I declined even if some of them were higher because I prefer to work on my own time and place.

It is funny some people always criticize the West yet they also hope to live in the West and get a job in order to have a better life. it's not perfect but way better than most countries.

I get it too. People everywhere in the world face this challenge of balancing job security and personal freedom. We all want stable employment but once we accept the contract from an employer, we have to comply with their rules, given that those do not compromise the rights of the employees. This is the first time tht Ive heard a five year commitment, usually in our country, it only takes 6 months to one year that you cannot leave the job upoj employment or else you will have to pay the company back. But yeah that’s it. Who wouldn't want a better life? The West might seem appealing but I guess youre right that it has its flaws too, still, it is a good country to live in.

[spectre71]

Min wage is an entry point job like when your in high school. It's not intended to support a lifestyle.

So get better skills and a better job. Learn how to weld, plumber, electrician and such those guys make BANK.

Nobody is swindling you, you are swindeling you expecting something for menial task. Get a skill.

[kingvirtus09]

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

This a good and productive topic, but what about tips and bonuses, are there any,
..
Well, if your friend thinks, he is still getting paid less and he can not meet his expenses then he should ask for an increment but to do that, he should have a good approach to his boss.

no tips
and no .. tips should not substitute minimum wage. tips are suppose to be a gratuity ontop of wages.. i understand some countries have a different minimum wage for cafe waitresses, but again if a business cannot support its longevity by even paying the minimum/living wage. it should not be operating

It is true that not all countries around the world have the same minimum wage for each applicant. Just like here in our country, the minimum wage for an ordinary employee is too low. Then, with the number of applicants who are looking for a job, even degree holders who have completed it are still trying to apply even if their income is below the minimum wage.

As long as the pursuit and what is important to them is that they have a job and they will be paid every 2 weeks and at the end of the month, that's the mindset of others. Others who are capable of applying abroad are made to work outside their country because the minimum wage is higher.

[philipma1957]

imagining being told your life was only worth £$10 an hour

And here is where you lost the crowd franky!!!

I'm really curious about the percentage of people who would start taking navigation courses and sail over 7 seas for that! Oh, screw that, look at the millions flooding Europe for even less than that, risking their life and leaving their families behind all for far less than that.
Redo the math for someone in the garment industry in Bangladesh or Vietnam, and then, when you ask if your entire life is worth $1000 you will realize the full meaning of "First World problem".

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

Grabbing popcorn and waiting for how this will turn for most of the users here, immediately after they hear they were supposed to have more than a 5-minute break during their 12-hour shift.

he tells me he spends about £$2 in fuel per day

Hmm, some of the largest communities here, Pakistan   29 motor vehicles/1000 people,  India 59, Nigeria 61.....United Kingdom 600.
First World problem!!!!  

Okay I make pretty good money, but it is all relative.  Where I live you can not walk to stores and carry the food home. So you have to have an e-bike with a cart or like most of us a car.

I have a car not two. I leased it as the one I owned was wrecked in summer of 2021.

My lease is 420 a month my fuel is 250 a month my car insurance is 200 a month. So the car alone costs 870 x 12 = 10400 a year.

Just the car . Next house insurance 1600 a year. next property tax 8700 a year.
then gas for stove and furnace 3000 a year.

and electric 8000 a year. So I am at 31700.

Phones and internet 3300 now I am at 35000.  

Sewer and water is 2000 so 37000 for a house and a car yearly cost.

No clothes or food.

If I go super cheap on food and clothes 12000 so now I am at 49000 a year.

Health insurance is 3000 so 52000 a year. That is with no vacations and very little restaurants.

So yea you can say first world issues. The biggest first world issue it things are costly.

Never mind if you want to eat healthy.

Third world is different a lot of it is fuck you starve stay poor no opportunities.
I lived in Philippines when I was in the US Navy so I saw lots of hard difficulty poor people have.

They had poor options and little money or ability to get good quality  items

[uswa56]

so folks. the gist is.. if a business requires you to be away from home and performing activities that benefit them from 8:45-6:15 make sure they pay you for all of that time ESPECIALLY if its minimum wage

This a good and productive topic, but what about tips and bonuses, are there any,
..
Well, if your friend thinks, he is still getting paid less and he can not meet his expenses then he should ask for an increment but to do that, he should have a good approach to his boss.

no tips
and no .. tips should not substitute minimum wage. tips are suppose to be a gratuity ontop of wages.. i understand some countries have a different minimum wage for cafe waitresses, but again if a business cannot support its longevity by even paying the minimum/living wage. it should not be operating

It is true that not all countries around the world have the same minimum wage for each applicant. Just like here in our country, the minimum wage for an ordinary employee is too low. Then, with the number of applicants who are looking for a job, even degree holders who have completed it are still trying to apply even if their income is below the minimum wage.

As long as the pursuit and what is important to them is that they have a job and they will be paid every 2 weeks and at the end of the month, that's the mindset of others. Others who are capable of applying abroad are made to work outside their country because the minimum wage is higher.

Yes, sometimes there are situations that cannot be controlled, requiring us to work for whatever we are paid as long as we can continue living, so a person's idealism cannot always be used and it must be in its proper place.
Realistically, we want whatever work we do to be worth it for the pay we receive, but I have been in a bad situation where I had to do whatever it took to continue living, so I know how it feels.
Maybe one way we have to go is to get up slowly and look for a place where we can find what we want.

[Oasisman]

if a business cannot operate by paying even the most basic legal requirement. that business should not operate. and people should not slave themselves just to keep a business in operation

Well, this could easily prevent employers from abusing such power, however, a lot of people are still looking to fill that job due to the tight career competition in the professional industry and most of these people doesn't have a degree in the first place so that leaves them with a little to no option at all. The inflation rate also adds to the burden.
This is a true story though and it happens most of the time in the restaurants. I have never worked in a restaurants before but a lot of my friends does. Theirs' were even worse because they should be at least 45 mins to 1 hr early to prepare things out from small peptalk to cleaning the kitchen and dining area. Though there are 2 shifts, but both shifts were actually doing 10 hrs minimum being in the work place the whole time and were receiving of 8 hrs as well, no overtimes. There were a free launch, but it's for limited amount only, anything in excess will be an automatic deduction to the payroll.
They are used to it already so it feels normal for them, It's not against the labor code as well but I know there could be something to be done with it to fix the kind of system. The reality here is that a lot of employees are actually underpaid, but only a few have dared to fix this system up, because everyone thinks it's normal.

[Vispilio]

Health insurance is 3000 so 52000 a year. That is with no vacations and very little restaurants.

So yea you can say first world issues. The biggest first world issue it things are costly.

...

Third world is different a lot of it is fuck you starve stay poor no opportunities.
I lived in Philippines when I was in the US Navy so I saw lots of hard difficulty poor people have.

They had poor options and little money or ability to get good quality  items

Agreed on the high cost of fundamental living expenses, probably most pronounced in the USA, where taxation and some laws are also very problematic and can immediately get one in trouble... It puts pressure on people to work very hard and with impeccable consistency, as it can all fall apart and one might find himself on the streets even if he slacks off just a little...


Philippines might not be the best example from a third world perspective as it's a pretty corrupt dictatorship, and most imported goods are very heavily taxed to make it prohibitive for the local population (or at least that was my experience when I was working briefly around Cebu there) ...

In more libertarian places, digital nomads have been really arbitraging the higher wages of the developed countries by doing remote work, and enjoying a luxury lifestyle at a far cheaper price tag, like Thailand, Portugal, parts of Eastern Europe and similar...

[Razmirraz]

My assumption is that the person you are talking about works in a supermarket or something similar that serves the needs of the people around them. It is worth exploring what the agreement was with the supermarket owner when he first accepted the job. If he feels that the salary he receives is too small or below the minimum salary applied in the area where he works, he can submit a request for a salary increase. He can also leave the job if he feels he is not being treated well, in terms of working more hours than usual and never being paid for overtime.
The decision is in his hands, choose to continue working there or look for work elsewhere.

[franky1]

My assumption is that the person you are talking about works in a supermarket or something similar that serves the needs of the people around them. It is worth exploring what the agreement was with the supermarket owner when he first accepted the job.

yes to all points
supermarkets that interview employees are the local instore supervisor(untrained in HR).. so trying to make salary demands at the interview stage falls flat against a supervisor who does not have any discretionary control over salary adjustments. they are there just to evaluate the applicant and get them to sign a template strict contract they printed from HR. a standard contract with set details the supervisor cannot touch or alter

usually if a supervisor has 20 applicants and a interviewee  is questioning even the 15 min start and end addon of time unpaid. the supervisor will just not get the interviewee to sign a contract and instead give the opportunity to someone that doesnt question the math

you would be surprised how little discretion/decision making ability a local instore manager/supervisor has over their employees/applicants.

its for the HR department of the HQ of the company that can handle salary discrepancies. and usually with any industry, its a headache to negotiate a pay rise or adjust an employee contract(customise it) compared to the standard template that all employees are locked into

usually it ends up with employees having to form a group action such as a strike or a union to push the HR to adjust all contracts. for the HR to even consider changing their template.

the problem is that there needs to be a legal push to the HQ to meet its legal obligations of labour time