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Author Topic: IRS proposes unprecedented data-collection on crypto users  (Read 249 times)
larry_vw_1955 (OP)
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October 26, 2023, 05:04:07 AM
 #21


The automated letter part I believe is possible, though I've never heard of it happening to crypto traders (who knows, it may happen).
They seem to have some type of computer system that calculates peoples' taxes and sends out letters if they made any arithmetic mistakes or didn't file a form they were supposed to. And then they'll say if we dont hear back from you then we'll assume you agree with our new assessment. So then you have to call them or write them. Or just pay the bill. I don't know if it happens to crypto traders either.

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The audit portion requires actual human intervention. This means resources need to be dedicated and people have to be paid for their work... everyone from the data analyst to the auditor to the collector to the manager. Not to mention travel expenses. Additionally, collectors are often entitled to a cut of whatever they are able to retrieve.
I have to wonder if that's really true that human intervention really plays such a huge role. maybe it used to but it would seem like they are going to start using AI to cut out alot of these data analysis and auditors jobs. they won't be needed anymore. The only thing that will be needed is a police officer to come take you to jail if you ignore their lawsuit.

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The letter part is easy. The "going after you" part costs a lot of money.
Imagine one day, AI does everything except rounding people up and throwing them in jail. it makes the decisions about who to audit and how much they owe and even files a lawsuit and presents its own case to a judge. How are you going to win a court case like that?

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So no, they won't go after you for a couple hundred bucks.
They might not come knocking at your door but the debt will incur interest and eventually they will either take it out of a tax refund you are due or if it gets big enough, they'll file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages or sieze your bank account.  Shocked
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October 29, 2023, 05:58:17 PM
Last edit: October 29, 2023, 06:12:18 PM by Saint-loup
 #22


Don't do KYC, use DEX as much as you can do.
you can say that but they have other things in mind. to put DEXs on the same footing as places like coinbase.

For this reason, the proposal states that the IRS expects some decentralized exchanges and selfhosted wallets may be forced to report their customers’ private information.

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enjoy those things while they last because there are people behind sites like Bisq and Localmonero. And if the IRS comes breathing down their neck they'll drop USA customers like a hot potato.

The premise seems to be partly based on “whether a person is in a position to know information about the identity of a customer, rather than whether a person ordinarily would know such information.” The proposal states that this distinction is made because some platforms “have a policy of not requesting customer information or requesting only limited information [but] have the ability to obtain information about their customers by updating their protocols.”
USA (and European Union) administration can do many things but they can't change sovereign countries laws, no-KYC exchanges exist in regulatory havens like Switzerland. There, it's legal to let customers exchanging 1000CHF(~$1100) by day without requiring KYC. It's their law. So I think some KYCless solutions will last for longtime, at least for small amounts, somewhere in the world, fortunately.
https://www.mtpelerin.com/faq/how-to-buy-bitcoin-in-switzerland
https://web.archive.org/web/20230528085507/https://www.mtpelerin.com/faq/how-to-buy-bitcoin-in-switzerland

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larry_vw_1955 (OP)
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October 30, 2023, 12:52:06 AM
 #23

USA (and European Union) administration can do many things but they can't change sovereign countries laws, no-KYC exchanges exist in regulatory havens like Switzerland. There, it's legal to let customers exchanging 1000CHF(~$1100) by day without requiring KYC. It's their law. So I think some KYCless solutions will last for longtime, at least for small amounts, somewhere in the world, fortunately.
https://www.mtpelerin.com/faq/how-to-buy-bitcoin-in-switzerland
https://web.archive.org/web/20230528085507/https://www.mtpelerin.com/faq/how-to-buy-bitcoin-in-switzerland

wait a minute so, a usa citizen can buy bitcoin online from switzerland and the irs can't know anything about that? i bet the irs doesn't like that, if that's the case. but better be careful. keep that ledger nano hidden so the irs agent doesn't notice it if they come knocking on your door for an audit.  Shocked

i thought the usa would surely try and make a military action to take over switzerland if switzerland refused to comply with a request to hand over information.

https://www.theblock.co/post/259757/kraken-irs-user-data-order
Kraken to share user data with IRS next month following June court order

if they can force kraken to spill the beans on people sending money through bitcoin then they can force anyone to. i would think.
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October 30, 2023, 04:24:04 AM
Merited by larry_vw_1955 (1)
 #24

wait a minute so, a usa citizen can buy bitcoin online from switzerland and the irs can't know anything about that?

Well, that's relative. There are a couple of sites that don't require KYC under 1000 CHF but if you're going to buy online it's going to be by card or bank transfer, so you leave a trail for the IRS. Your best bet would be to use a bridge account in a third country where the IRS does not have direct access and make purchases by bank transfer or card from there.

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October 30, 2023, 10:03:05 AM
 #25

I have to wonder if that's really true that human intervention really plays such a huge role. maybe it used to but it would seem like they are going to start using AI to cut out alot of these data analysis and auditors jobs. they won't be needed anymore. The only thing that will be needed is a police officer to come take you to jail if you ignore their lawsuit.

Of course its true. There is no machine that can reason with someone as to why they should pay back tax debt and then end up convincing them to do so. The human touch will always be vital to such types of negotiations. Another thing you have to consider is whether or not they have the funds or assets to make any kind of payback, whatsoever. Can't squeeze blood from a stone.

Imagine one day, AI does everything except rounding people up and throwing them in jail. it makes the decisions about who to audit and how much they owe and even files a lawsuit and presents its own case to a judge. How are you going to win a court case like that?

I will just wait until that time comes.

They might not come knocking at your door but the debt will incur interest and eventually they will either take it out of a tax refund you are due or if it gets big enough, they'll file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages or sieze your bank account.  Shocked

I don't have any of those things.

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larry_vw_1955 (OP)
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October 31, 2023, 10:57:03 PM
 #26


They might not come knocking at your door but the debt will incur interest and eventually they will either take it out of a tax refund you are due or if it gets big enough, they'll file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages or sieze your bank account.  Shocked

I don't have any of those things.

none of them? then you're about as judgement proof as they come. congrats! Grin
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November 01, 2023, 04:45:13 AM
Merited by nutildah (1)
 #27


They might not come knocking at your door but the debt will incur interest and eventually they will either take it out of a tax refund you are due or if it gets big enough, they'll file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages or sieze your bank account.  Shocked

I don't have any of those things.

none of them? then you're about as judgement proof as they come. congrats! Grin

I kept thinking about that too, and I don't know if it's a joke or something. No tax refund, no wages and no bank account? If he lived in Somalia it would make more sense to me but it sounds to me like he lives in the USA. If true, he must be living Satoshi's P2P dream at its best.

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November 01, 2023, 05:53:38 PM
 #28

USA (and European Union) administration can do many things but they can't change sovereign countries laws, no-KYC exchanges exist in regulatory havens like Switzerland. There, it's legal to let customers exchanging 1000CHF(~$1100) by day without requiring KYC. It's their law. So I think some KYCless solutions will last for longtime, at least for small amounts, somewhere in the world, fortunately.
https://www.mtpelerin.com/faq/how-to-buy-bitcoin-in-switzerland
https://web.archive.org/web/20230528085507/https://www.mtpelerin.com/faq/how-to-buy-bitcoin-in-switzerland

wait a minute so, a usa citizen can buy bitcoin online from switzerland and the irs can't know anything about that? i bet the irs doesn't like that, if that's the case. but better be careful. keep that ledger nano hidden so the irs agent doesn't notice it if they come knocking on your door for an audit.  Shocked

i thought the usa would surely try and make a military action to take over switzerland if switzerland refused to comply with a request to hand over information.

https://www.theblock.co/post/259757/kraken-irs-user-data-order
Kraken to share user data with IRS next month following June court order

if they can force kraken to spill the beans on people sending money through bitcoin then they can force anyone to. i would think.
I have long wanted to ask you about shadow cryptocurrency exchange services in the USA?
Several Russian guys who live in the USA found similar services within a few days in telegram chats of expats. I haven’t talked to them since then, but I don’t think everyone in the US follows cryptocurrency laws.

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larry_vw_1955 (OP)
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November 02, 2023, 12:55:46 AM
 #29


I have long wanted to ask you about shadow cryptocurrency exchange services in the USA?
Several Russian guys who live in the USA found similar services within a few days in telegram chats of expats. I haven’t talked to them since then, but I don’t think everyone in the US follows cryptocurrency laws.

there's alot worse things on telegram than just people using bitcoin to avoid paying taxes. way worse things.  Shocked but yeah, it wouldn't suprise me that people use telegram to launder money through bitcoin somehow.
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