Is the irreversibility of Bitcoin transactions a downside for an average person?

[hatshepsut93]

So I saw this topic about succesfully returned accidental transaction and it provoked some thoughts.

Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted. Those that receive money want transactions be irreversible to not get scammed by chargebacks.

In our world a lot more people are senders rather than receivers. An average person receives money once or typically a few times per month and then does dozens or hundreds of payments. And since they receive money from an employer, it's unlikely they will get scammed.

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?


P. S. - this is not a topic about whether Bitcoin's irreversibility is objectively good or bad; it's about the perspective of average person today and what they need from their payment system in their life.

[1714511286]

1714511286

[1714511286]

1714511286

[paid2]

I think that the average user must be happy to know that once in his wallet, his BTC has no chance of disappearing because of a potentially reversible transaction. Nope?

Especially long term HODLers

[Ale88]

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?

They praise irreversibility because is one of bitcoin's characteristic, if you're not ok with that it means that you are criticizing bitcoin and not everybody likes to do that. At the same time I don't see another choice, if we want bitcoin to be completely independent and decentralized no one should decide if and when reverse a transaction. Of course for the average person it could be a big problem and I know people who don't feel confortable with that and they prefer not to use bitcoin.

[BlackBoss_]

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?

They want irreversibility because it makes their trades safer. Reverse is like chargeback that benefits scammers more than solid users. We can not make reversibility to benefit minority of users because of their carelessness. The majority are carefully with their transaction broadcast, double check and more so they don't actually need to have reversibility.

[vv181]

~it's about the perspective of average person today and what they need from their payment system in their life.

Judging based on my experience in my own country, they need fast transaction. Easy and convenient way of payment. Feeless transaction.

The digital payment system that heavily enforced here is that it’s a qr-based address where the payer just scan it to receive the address and the amounts need to be payed, enter a pin to confirm the transaction, and voila they receive the goods. While of course a payment system like that requires fee in one way or another, and in this case it is the payee who pays it or hiddenly included the bill to the payer.

Beside, that options is widely available across many merchants. I do not know the systemic fraud rate, but the most common fraud is happening beyond the reach of the systemic problem. For example, displayed a fraudulent qr or the cashier using their own qr, bypassing the store payment system.

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it?

There’s a saying that tells someone praises irreversibility, but hoping it would be non existent when themselves is the one who need to get their money back.

[o48o]

So I saw this topic about succesfully returned accidental transaction and it provoked some thoughts.

Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted. Those that receive money want transactions be irreversible to not get scammed by chargebacks.

In our world a lot more people are senders rather than receivers. An average person receives money once or typically a few times per month and then does dozens or hundreds of payments. And since they receive money from an employer, it's unlikely they will get scammed.

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?


P. S. - this is not a topic about whether Bitcoin's irreversibility is objectively good or bad; it's about the perspective of average person today and what they need from their payment system in their life.

It obviously can be a downside for some people just as well it's an upside to some. But that could be said about any tech. But why would that even matter?
It's not like we can, or should do anything about that feature, as permissionless & immutable transactions is one of the main reasons that makes the bitcoin valuable and is needed in the first place.

Ability to reverse transactions would make it highly centralized. In fact it wouldn't be bitcoin at all after that.

[Iron Fist]

I think it's an interesting point of view.  My guess is they're coming from the bigger picture of how decentralized systems without a middleman are useful.  Since Bitcoin cuts out the middleman, theres no one to go ask for your money back - which also means you don't have to pay fees for chargeback protection like with credit cards and stuff.  Even if you don't get an advantage all the time, having a system that's predictable can be valuable in itself.  It simplifies everything when users know upfront that transactions cant be changed later and 

overall I'd say the pros of Bitcoin being irreversible are 1) no fees for chargebacks 2) fits with the decentralized model and 3) makes the system straightforward because you always know where you stand.  But I'm just speculating based on what I know about crypto and payments.  Definitely an interesting perspective from certain users.

[digaran]

@OP, you really think people are actually using Bitcoin widespread in market places to buy stuff? Most of the transactions you see is to and from exchanges/casinos, the volume for ordinary users is very low.
The only way to "reverse" the transaction is to double spend or cancel before confirmation. For anything other than that, use paypal etc. Where there exist another type of scamming by chargebacks.

[thecodebear]

Reversibility, and irreversibility, both have their pros and cons. Bitcoin is irreversible and that's that, so if you're cool with that then you're cool with Bitcoin, but if you feel reversibility is absolutely crucial you're not gonna like Bitcoin.

Personally I've never needed a transaction reversed that I can think of, so the way Bitcoin does it is fine with me. And I'm pretty sure you can build a merchant system that takes irreversibility into account.

I would say for the average person it doesn't matter because how many people regularly or even rarely need a transaction reversed? I would imagine not many.

[GreatArkansas]

I think it's an interesting point of view.  My guess is they're coming from the bigger picture of how decentralized systems without a middleman are useful.  Since Bitcoin cuts out the middleman, theres no one to go ask for your money back - which also means you don't have to pay fees for chargeback protection like with credit cards and stuff.  Even if you don't get an advantage all the time, having a system that's predictable can be valuable in itself.  It simplifies everything when users know upfront that transactions cant be changed later and 

overall I'd say the pros of Bitcoin being irreversible are 1) no fees for chargebacks 2) fits with the decentralized model and 3) makes the system straightforward because you always know where you stand.  But I'm just speculating based on what I know about crypto and payments.  Definitely an interesting perspective from certain users.

Yep, it's more likely when we are solving other problems, some part or feature will be sacrificed but if you take a look, it will not really matter, you can't solve decentralized and cutting the middleman if you reverse transactions.
So for me, I don't see irreversibility as a downside at all, it will be always a person's problem.

[franky1]

for centuries people used cash/coins. where it got physically handed over to a recipient and if you wanted it back you had to plead to the receiver with good reason

with digital bank accounts you still need to ask a bank.. *

no money has ever been independently retrievable without requesting a drawback/chargeback/clawback/refund from someone

*yes banks have got lazy and just accept any reason to clawback funds.. but thats banks problem

[joniboini]

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?

From the perspective of somebody who regularly pays for services with BTC, I don't really think about irreversibility that much in the sense that it gives me benefits. I think the flexibility and lower fees are probably the main reason why I use BTC instead. On the other hand, due to the nature of irreversible transactions, I'd make sure that my transaction is right before I publish it to the network.

That being said, from somebody who wants better privacy and doesn't want to rely on fiat too much, I don't mind the irreversibility of the network. It is not such a big deal and at most gives a bit of a headache if my transaction is pending. Not to mention most merchants allow users to send a ticket if something goes wrong with their purchases. If that is the problem, I'd suggest they use other platforms instead of removing BTC irreversibility.

[Darker45]

Irreversibility is generally neutral. The goodness or badness of this feature depends on a person's individual circumstances. To me, I don't think it's a downside. As a matter of fact, it's generally a good thing. Once a transaction is settled, I won't have to worry about it because what already happened can't be reversed.

But I can see how it is also a bad thing from the perspective of another. Erroneous transaction is just one reason. What I have in mind, however, is the giant yet still growing e-commerce industry. It's a common problem here in my country that the goods sold online aren't exactly the ones that are sent to the buyer. That a payment system is irreversible might make it all worse. Because it means transactions shall be processed manually and it will certainly take a lot of time.

[mk4]

There are upsides and downsides; but the upside heavily outweighs the downsides in my opinion. At the very least, having no chargebacks teaches people to not easily trust random people online and think twice when buying/paying for things.

Besides, you can still get chargebacks through escrows.

[yazher]

I think everyone has already adopted a traditional way of sending transactions when they are about to send it, they will check if everything is right because that's the basic thing you need to know of using bitcoins as payment. We only have a few cases where some person sent it to the wrong address but they were not paying attention while they sending it. That's why every exchange has some warning every time you are about to send some transactions in order to avoid such problems to happen on their users.

[Jawhead999]

I think you need to ask yourself too: how often you ask a refund when you sent money by mistake, to scammer etc?

I never make any mistake, but I ever send to a scammer few times, since the amount is small I'm not asking for a refund because the process is complicated and no guarantee I will get back my money.

Since I've deal with that and accept it as a lesson, I don't think irreversibility is the main problem for an average person, transaction fee is still the main problem.

[adaseb]

There are pros and cons for both.

Sure it would be great if your funds were stolen or you sent to the wrong address to reverse them since those are accidental and transactions you didn’t approve.

The issue is that if you allow transaction to be reversed then so will scams happen. People will buy stuff, pay with bitcoin and then try to reverse it, which is obviously not good.

In my opinion I think the way it is now is the perfect method since you know once it’s confirmed it’s yours forever and you don’t need to worry about it reversing.

[DapanasFruit]

To be frank about it, Bitcoin's irreversibility  can be not working for anyone who is not so careful when transacting with the platform he is used to. One must triple check the address to avoid any mistake because we know the bad consequences of taking chances...no return no exchange so one must make sure before hitting the button SEND. This is something that one must be educated with when dealing with Bitcoin or most cryptos for that matter...of course it would be a little different if you are transacting with people you know because you can just contact them in case of a mistake, otherwise this is not a child toy one can just play with.

[electronicash]

what the average person need is fiat and a platform serving as escrow. we won't worry about it after all the CBDC is coming.  the average person are not forced to using BTC for its transactions, merchants will always prefer the fiat even if they accept BTC.

the average person i think will not be convinced to used BTC anyway, unless they also accept this irreveribility as a positive feature.

[Zaguru12]

To be frank about it, Bitcoin's irreversibility  can be not working for anyone who is not so careful when transacting with the platform he is used to. One must triple check the address to avoid any mistake because we know the bad consequences of taking chances...no return no exchange so one must make sure before hitting the button SEND. This is something that one must be educated with when dealing with Bitcoin or most cryptos for that matter...of course it would be a little different if you are transacting with people you know because you can just contact them in case of a mistake, otherwise this is not a child toy one can just play with.

If we look at it, bitcoin itself according to satoshi us primarily a means of payment and then the other use of it is secondary. As a payment mechanism I go with the idea of it not been irreversible, because merchants will suffer more should the irreversibility not been there, than a random person that makes a costly mistake of sending to an address which is wrong. Reversing an already established transaction would make many merchants to be wary of using bitcoin for their payment purpose and will reduce its adoption and transparency. But If you’re the one sending and you it’s irreversible you would be extra cautious to make a mistake and should it happen then you take your cross which is fair enough.

The use of QR codes can be used by merchants ant it’s likes to avoid occasional errors by its customers from sending into wrong addresses. This way everything is fair enough for everyone. So for an average person the first security is for him not to get scam and this outweighs the risk of him making mistake which the irreversibility solves