Raspi 4 for Bitcoin Node: Still Compatible?

[Bayesian Bitcoiner]

Hi everyone,

It's been several months since I started digging into the technical aspect of Bitcoin and finally, I decided to run a node myself.

And I heard this thing that Raspi isn't a sustainable option for the Bitcoin core node. And here's what he said.

Start9 no longer recommends the use of PI for Bitcoin. Even the 8 GB is beginning to have trouble with IBD due to the increase in the blockchain size when ordinals. Matt Hill addresses that here “The Raspberry Pi, even the 8GB, is rapidly becoming obsolete. The UTXO set has grown tremendously over the last year and is now around 8GB in size. The Pi has very slow disk speeds over USB, which causes disk cache to build up. Once the cache nears 8GB, all operations will be sent to disk and become extremely slow. This is made worse if you are trying to run other services as well. We no longer recommend the Pi for Bitcoin under any configuration”

I was actually looking into getting a Raspi on either StartOS or Umbrel OS to enhance my self-sovereign computing journey with many apps on top of it. Should I refrain from getting one? What are some best "starter packs" out there for node nubies?

[mocacinno]

You could always go for a refurbished mini pc... Amazon sells them pretty cheap, and usually with a 1 year warrantee... For example:
https://www.amazon.com/HP-EliteDesk-Quad-Core-Professional-Bit-Multi-Language-English/dp/B08KSGKHVS/ref=sr_1_2?c=ts&keywords=Mini%2BComputers&qid=1699531680&refinements=p_n_condition-type%3A16907720011&s=pc&sr=1-2&ts_id=13896591011&th=1

This one costs about double of an rPi, but it has an i5, 16G DDR4 ram... You'll need one with a bigger disk tough, but i've seen them being sold for about the same price in the past. I'm not affiliated with amazon, nor with the seller of this device... Always use your due diligence and only buy from sellers with a good trust rating that offer some form of reasonable guarantee.

If you don't mind spending in the ~$250 range, you could even go for a new one like this: https://www.amazon.com/KAMRUI-Desktop-Computers-Computer-Dual-Band/dp/B0CF21D846/ref=sr_1_3?crid=39L6B2YW22OEE&keywords=mini%2Bpc%2B1%2BTb&qid=1699531997&sprefix=mini%2Bpc%2B1%2Btb%2Caps%2C148&sr=8-3&th=1

1Tb Nvme ssd disk, 16Gb ram, a mobile cpu (which isn't all that great, but it should be sufficient)...

I realize the price difference between one of these mini pc's and an rpi is steep, but you do get more bang for your buck...

[seek3r]

The Pi has very slow disk speeds over USB, which causes disk cache to build up. Once the cache nears 8GB, all operations will be sent to disk and become extremely slow. This is made worse if you are trying to run other services as well. We no longer recommend the Pi for Bitcoin under any configuration”[/i]

Yea, slow disk speeds and limited RAM can lead to a bottleneck which would cause the whole system to slow down in future.

I was actually looking into getting a Raspi on either StartOS or Umbrel OS to enhance my self-sovereign computing journey with many apps on top of it. Should I refrain from getting one? What are some best "starter packs" out there for node nubies?

UmbrelOS looks fine for me if you still going with the Raspberry Pi. The interface is very user-friendly. Good side-effect: If you decide to use other hardware over time, you will most likely be able to continue using UmbrelOS because it is compatible with most hardware options.

If you asked me for a personal opinion, I would recommend an Intel NUC.
There are of course many versions of hardware there. I think with a good i5 and 16gb RAM you are on the safe side. As storage I would recommend 1TB SSD to ensure enough speed and storage for the blockchain data.

You are then also flexible whether you want to use umbrelOS or a full node via Bitcoin Core.

Of course there are also cheaper solutions as @mocacinno already mentioned. That's up to each individual, but the NUCs have proven themselves time and again to be the most powerful Mini-PCs over the years.
It's a shame that the production of new devices is now stopped.

[philipma1957]

I yell and scream and complain about anyone using a rasp pi to run a node.

I recently did a thread here about getting an older gen3 i7 laptop by asus. only 8 gb ram in it. and a 500gb spinner. the cost was zero.

I pulled the 500 gb put in a 2tb crucial ssd. loaded the entire blockchain in under 20 hours.

the gear works fine.  and you spend under 100 usd.

go on ebay look around you will find a decent piece of gear a laptop or a dell tiny. come to mind.

fast search on ebay


https://www.ebay.com/itm/334266133509?


80:dollars

yeah you need to buy an ssd and a second stick of ram

so add 100 bucks and you destroy any rasp pi

[examplens]

I yell and scream and complain about anyone using a rasp pi to run a node.

I recently did a thread here about getting an older gen3 i7 laptop by asus. only 8 gb ram in it. and a 500gb spinner. the cost was zero.

I think this is about the only advantage, which is the lower consumption of electricity to run the nodes on the Pi. Plus is much more discreet because it requires much less space than any personal computer.

btw. Speaking of this, based on personal experience, what is the recommended minimum hardware CPU/RAM? Does it make sense to start a node on a laptop with 1 core?

[philipma1957]

I yell and scream and complain about anyone using a rasp pi to run a node.

I recently did a thread here about getting an older gen3 i7 laptop by asus. only 8 gb ram in it. and a 500gb spinner. the cost was zero.

I think this is about the only advantage, which is the lower consumption of electricity to run the nodes on the Pi. Plus is much more discreet because it requires much less space than any personal computer.

btw. Speaking of this, based on personal experience, what is the recommended minimum hardware CPU/RAM? Does it make sense to start a node on a laptop with 1 core?

no.

An i5 6500t hp or dell or lenovo
an i5 4500t all at this level in the tiny are good.

an i7 3700t although my asus lap top an i7 3rd gen uses linux mint 8gb and a 2tb crucial sata ssd.

If you used the asus for your node and your bitcointalk laptop along with lite browsing like amazon and ebay shopping you would be happy. that is an 11 year or 10 year old laptop.

no gaming. I even think you could youtube,netflix and run the node.

I should did up my thread and run some netflix while it does the node.

using linux really helps it. and if I want I can add ram to it and go to 16gb vs 8gb

let me find the asus I got for free on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266476012232?

To be clear my buddy has a business and they got rid of old laptops grabbed new ones to upgrade.

So I got the model above for free.

My model has all parts working I pulled the windows ten 500gb spinner put in the 2tb sata ssd.
I loaded linux mint. I can up grade to 16gb but at this moment I do not need it.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5468600.0

my thread on the laptop with linux and 2tb ssd.

[LoyceV]

and you spend under 100 usd.

Including a free i7 laptop isn't really a fair comparison Availability of cheap older hardware will depend on where you live. I can't just order hardware in New York without high shipping cost and import taxes.

so add 100 bucks and you destroy any rasp pi

For continuous operation, I'd look at energy costs too. A Raspi is designed to use very little power. Since you're into mining, I assume you have very cheap electricity. Here, the Optiplex will cost more to run a few years than it's initial price.

That being said: I like cheap laptops too. They're much more versatile.

btw. Speaking of this, based on personal experience, what is the recommended minimum hardware CPU/RAM? Does it make sense to start a node on a laptop with 1 core?

I just checked: bitcoind currently uses 6-9% of one Xeon core, and 3% of the system's 32GB RAM. Except for the IBD, it really doesn't take much resources.
It's been a long time since laptops with only 1 core were sold, so it depends on which CPU you have. And if it's 15 years old, chances are it lacks RAM too.

[DaveF]

I use RPi and some old laptops and some old PCs to run my nodes. All have their good side and bad side.

RPi: Good: Small, cheap, a lot of support, very low power use. Bad: Can be slow for IBD, and even as cheap as they are, you can get used laptops / PCs for free.

Laptop (assuming used): Good: Built in screen, lower power then a desktop, can be had for very little. Bad: For the most part NOT designed for 24/7/365 operations, and you have no idea how the previous owner(s) treated it. Could have been dropped, left in a hot car cooking over the summer or freezing in the winter. And so on.

Desktop: Good: Cheap (or free) and everywhere. Going to faster then the laptop / RPi for the most part. Bad: Pulls the most power, although not as bad as a laptop you don't know how the previous owner(s) treated it, would need a screen to do a lot of the initial setup.

There is no one size fits all. Something like this that I am selling still works well ( I have a couple still running) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5471664
BUT, you have to then hunt down a m.2 sata and deal with the fan issue........

-Dave

[LoyceV]

Laptop (assuming used): ~ Bad: For the most part NOT designed for 24/7/365 operations

It may not be designed for it, but after years af running laptops for 24/7/365, I can tell you it works just fine in most cases Just keep the fan clean, and stay away from the ones with power hungry CPUs.

[philipma1957]

I have done rasp pi
I have done mac mini
I have done hp lenovo dell tinys
I have done laptops

The 8 inch by 8 inch by 1.5 inch tinys use under 30 watts daily if they have an intel i5 6500t cpu.

that is 1 kwatt a month. who cares about power costs at that level

to me they are my favorite for nodes

you can attach it and your normal pc to a monitor that have two inputs.

This asus laptop is the first unit I used for a node. so far it is stable.

I use two other laptops for my remote access to the mines two rooms in clifton.

so far so good. over 1 year up 🆙 time in very hot rooms. running 24/7/365

[DaveF]

Laptop (assuming used): ~ Bad: For the most part NOT designed for 24/7/365 operations

It may not be designed for it, but after years af running laptops for 24/7/365, I can tell you it works just fine in most cases Just keep the fan clean, and stay away from the ones with power hungry CPUs.

Me too, I have a pair of them that have been up just about forever 24/7 but it's still something to consider.
Also, with laptops if you do have to change the fan out it is *usually* more of a project then a desktop.

On the flip side if the AC adapter dies on a laptop it's not a big deal vs. taking apart a PC to and getting a new power supply.

The mini PCs with the external power eliminate that issue.

-Dave

[seek3r]

I use RPi and some old laptops and some old PCs to run my nodes. All have their good side and bad side.

RPi: Good: Small, cheap, a lot of support, very low power use. Bad: Can be slow for IBD, and even as cheap as they are, you can get used laptops / PCs for free.

Laptop (assuming used): Good: Built in screen, lower power then a desktop, can be had for very little. Bad: For the most part NOT designed for 24/7/365 operations, and you have no idea how the previous owner(s) treated it. Could have been dropped, left in a hot car cooking over the summer or freezing in the winter. And so on.

Desktop: Good: Cheap (or free) and everywhere. Going to faster then the laptop / RPi for the most part. Bad: Pulls the most power, although not as bad as a laptop you don't know how the previous owner(s) treated it, would need a screen to do a lot of the initial setup.

There is no one size fits all. Something like this that I am selling still works well ( I have a couple still running) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5471664
BUT, you have to then hunt down a m.2 sata and deal with the fan issue........

-Dave

I miss the Mini-PCs in your list. I know, technically you could count them under desktops.

Ofc you shouldn't ignore the purchase of the device when considering the following points, but a NUC, for example, has lower power consumption than laptops or classic desktop PCs.
They also score with their compact shape and take up significantly less space. Some Mini PCs also offer a low noise level due to their passive cooling and are therefore almost inaudible. 

Compared to the Raspberry Pi it simply offers more powerful hardware and is not dependent on ARM architectures.

I would say that they are perfect for running a full node.

[LoyceV]

The 8 inch by 8 inch by 1.5 inch tinys use under 30 watts daily if they have an intel i5 6500t cpu.

that is 1 kwatt a month. who cares about power costs at that level

30W is 21 kWh/month, or 263 kWh/year. That's €100 per year (at €0.38/kWh). Assuming I create a setup for 5 years, that's €500. If a Raspi could bring it down to 6W including disk, that saves €400.

Also, with laptops if you do have to change the fan out it is *usually* more of a project then a desktop.

I'm on my third fan The first one broke, the second fan had less blades than the original and didn't work as well. Most of the time it's just 8-12 screws.

On the flip side if the AC adapter dies on a laptop it's not a big deal vs. taking apart a PC to and getting a new power supply.

Don't get me started on adapters....... I've seen original adapters blow up the mainboard (twice). Most of the time the cable breaks internally, but that doesn't happen if you use it as a server.

[philipma1957]

I use RPi and some old laptops and some old PCs to run my nodes. All have their good side and bad side.

RPi: Good: Small, cheap, a lot of support, very low power use. Bad: Can be slow for IBD, and even as cheap as they are, you can get used laptops / PCs for free.

Laptop (assuming used): Good: Built in screen, lower power then a desktop, can be had for very little. Bad: For the most part NOT designed for 24/7/365 operations, and you have no idea how the previous owner(s) treated it. Could have been dropped, left in a hot car cooking over the summer or freezing in the winter. And so on.

Desktop: Good: Cheap (or free) and everywhere. Going to faster then the laptop / RPi for the most part. Bad: Pulls the most power, although not as bad as a laptop you don't know how the previous owner(s) treated it, would need a screen to do a lot of the initial setup.

There is no one size fits all. Something like this that I am selling still works well ( I have a couple still running) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5471664
BUT, you have to then hunt down a m.2 sata and deal with the fan issue........

-Dave

I miss the Mini-PCs in your list. I know, technically you could count them under desktops.

Ofc you shouldn't ignore the purchase of the device when considering the following points, but a NUC, for example, has lower power consumption than laptops or classic desktop PCs.
They also score with their compact shape and take up significantly less space. Some Mini PCs also offer a low noise level due to their passive cooling and are therefore almost inaudible. 

Compared to the Raspberry Pi it simply offers more powerful hardware and is not dependent on ARM architectures.

I would say that they are perfect for running a full node.

never had an intel nuc. always seemed a bit pricy.

[examplens]

If you used the asus for your node and your bitcointalk laptop along with lite browsing like amazon and ebay shopping you would be happy. that is an 11 year or 10 year old laptop.

no gaming. I even think you could youtube,netflix and run the node.

I should did up my thread and run some netflix while it does the node.

No, he would only use that laptop for that one purpose to run nodes. No internet browsing, Netflix or whatever.

The problem here is the lack of RAM, I don't think it's even possible to upgrade to more than 4Gb, I'm not even sure about that much. It's about some old Dell XPS machines, tiny and in solid condition.

I just checked: bitcoind currently uses 6-9% of one Xeon core, and 3% of the system's 32GB RAM. Except for the IBD, it really doesn't take much resources.
It's been a long time since laptops with only 1 core were sold, so it depends on which CPU you have. And if it's 15 years old, chances are it lacks RAM too.

[philipma1957]

The 8 inch by 8 inch by 1.5 inch tinys use under 30 watts daily if they have an intel i5 6500t cpu.

that is 1 kwatt a month. who cares about power costs at that level

30W is 21 kWh/month, or 263 kWh/year. That's €100 per year (at €0.38/kWh). Assuming I create a setup for 5 years, that's €500. If a Raspi could bring it down to 6W including disk, that saves €400.

Also, with laptops if you do have to change the fan out it is *usually* more of a project then a desktop.

I'm on my third fan The first one broke, the second fan had less blades than the original and didn't work as well. Most of the time it's just 8-12 screws.

On the flip side if the AC adapter dies on a laptop it's not a big deal vs. taking apart a PC to and getting a new power supply.

Don't get me started on adapters....... I've seen original adapters blow up the mainboard (twice). Most of the time the cable breaks internally, but that doesn't happen if you use it as a server.

my bad 30 x 30 x 24 is 21600 watts a month or 21.6 kwatts

I pay 14 cents in house so it is 3 bucks a month

I pay under five cents in the mine so it is 63 cents a month.

so if a rasp pi knocks 36 dollars a year down to 6 dollars the savings is 30 usd a year.

and if its 8 a year at the mine I drop to 1.50 and save 6.50 a year.

I don’t really mind that extra money to run a node

If you pay 50 cents a kwatt its  10 bucks a month or 120 a year vs 100 a year which does add up

[DaveF]

never had an intel nuc. always seemed a bit pricy.

Which was why I didn't include them. The NUC both intel branded and other makes always tended to be a lot more money then an equivalent mini PC.
This even follows down to the used market.
Not sure why, it just is one of those things, at least around here.

-Dave

[philipma1957]

never had an intel nuc. always seemed a bit pricy.

Which was why I didn't include them. The NUC both intel branded and other makes always tended to be a lot more money then an equivalent mini PC.
This even follows down to the used market.
Not sure why, it just is one of those things, at least around here.

-Dave

yeah.  I have found i5 6500t and 16gb with a 2tb ssd is more than enough and pretty cheap.

I tend to forget that my 14 cent at home and 4.7 cent mining power is way cheaper than most people.

so burning 21 kwatts a month for this pc.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/115963393472?

is not a factor for me.

but at 40 or 50 cents a kwatt it would be a factor.

[dkbit98]

I was actually looking into getting a Raspi on either StartOS or Umbrel OS to enhance my self-sovereign computing journey with many apps on top of it. Should I refrain from getting one? What are some best "starter packs" out there for node nubies?

Big advantage using Rpi4 for me is that it spends little electricity and it can work silently (in same cases), but I am not if it still works fine for Bitcoin node.
There is new Raspberry Pi 5 released recently and it is 2-3 times faster than previous generation, and I think this won't have any issues for bitcoin in next few years.
This is going to be more expensive, so if you already have old laptop that you don't use you can just use that instead.

[philipma1957]

I was actually looking into getting a Raspi on either StartOS or Umbrel OS to enhance my self-sovereign computing journey with many apps on top of it. Should I refrain from getting one? What are some best "starter packs" out there for node nubies?

Big advantage using Rpi4 for me is that it spends little electricity and it can work silently (in same cases), but I am not if it still works fine for Bitcoin node.
There is new Raspberry Pi 5 released recently and it is 2-3 times faster than previous generation, and I think this won't have any issues for bitcoin in next few years.
This is going to be more expensive, so if you already have old laptop that you don't use you can just use that instead.

found a link

https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-5/



"Does Raspberry Pi 5 need active cooling?
Raspberry Pi 5 is faster and more powerful than prior-generation Raspberry Pis, and like most general-purpose computers, it will perform best with active cooling. The Raspberry Pi Case for Raspberry Pi 5, with its integrated fan, is one way to provide this."

wants a fan so it is not silent
maxes at 8gb ram



more specs from website

"Features:

VideoCore VII GPU, supporting OpenGL ES 3.1, Vulkan 1.2
Dual 4Kp60 HDMI® display output with HDR support
4Kp60 HEVC decoder
LPDDR4X-4267 SDRAM (4GB or 8GB)
Dual-band 802.11ac Wi-Fi®
Bluetooth 5.0 / Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)
microSD card slot, with support for high-speed SDR104 mode
2 × USB 3.0 ports, supporting simultaneous 5Gbps operation
2 × USB 2.0 ports
Gigabit Ethernet, with PoE+ support
(requires separate PoE+ HAT)
2 × 4-lane MIPI camera/display transceivers
PCIe 2.0 x1 interface for fast peripherals
(requires separate M.2 HAT or other adapter)
5V/5A DC power via USB-C, with Power Delivery support
Raspberry Pi standard 40-pin header
Real-time clock (RTC), powered from external battery (battery sold separately)"


I have purchased from them .

https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-5-8gb.html?cid=USD&src=raspberrypi


but $159  and you need a bigger sd stick

https://www.amazon.com/PNY-Elite-Class-Flash-Memory/dp/B08NCBVTJS/ref=sr_1_7_sspa?


so 159 + 119 = 278

 or go external ssd for 89. which is 159+79= 238

https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-Portable-Photographers-MU-PE1T0S-AM/dp/B09VLK9W3S/ref=sr_1_6?


I have run rasp pi's and do not like them for this task but my power cost is less so getting a laptop on eBay and adding parts keeps me under 200 and it is better for me than a rasp pi.