Raspi 4 for Bitcoin Node: Still Compatible?

[ABCbits]

And I heard this thing that Raspi isn't a sustainable option for the Bitcoin core node. And here's what he said.

Start9 no longer recommends the use of PI for Bitcoin. Even the 8 GB is beginning to have trouble with IBD due to the increase in the blockchain size when ordinals. Matt Hill addresses that here “The Raspberry Pi, even the 8GB, is rapidly becoming obsolete. The UTXO set has grown tremendously over the last year and is now around 8GB in size. The Pi has very slow disk speeds over USB, which causes disk cache to build up. Once the cache nears 8GB, all operations will be sent to disk and become extremely slow. This is made worse if you are trying to run other services as well. We no longer recommend the Pi for Bitcoin under any configuration”

OP, was that statement comes from https://community.start9.com/t/raspberry-pi-no-longer-recommended-for-use-with-bitcoin-stack/779? Anyway, i mostly agree with what he said although,
1. He's not being clear whether it only applies when you HDD or any kind of storage over USB port.
2. Based on https://start9.com/, it looks like Start9 already include many running application by default.

What are some best "starter packs" out there for node nubies?

On OS/software-level, it depends what exactly you need. If you only want to run Bitcoin full node, install any OS (Linux is recommended) and Bitcoin Core is sufficient.

never had an intel nuc. always seemed a bit pricy.

Which was why I didn't include them. The NUC both intel branded and other makes always tended to be a lot more money then an equivalent mini PC.
This even follows down to the used market.
Not sure why, it just is one of those things, at least around here.

-Dave

In addition, Intel NUC has been discontinued anyway. See https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/11/23790956/intel-nuc-compact-pc-discontinued. So anyone who buy it will get leftover stock and probably limited support in future.

[NotATether]

no gaming. I even think you could youtube,netflix and run the node.

Yeah, it's possible. Well as long as you're not using Chrome, the memory gobbler. Firefox is better.

And also if the GPU is working because we should not be stressing the CPU for videos while there's a bitcoin node running. Particularly since its a laptop so battery life is important, if it has no battery then it might as well be a mini desktop.

[dkbit98]

wants a fan so it is not silent
maxes at 8gb ram

I know.
They will probably release Raspberry Pi500 with huge silent cooler, something similar exist already for RPi400.
Even with good silent fan it is probably going to be more silent than regular computer.

but $159  and you need a bigger sd stick

It's not cheap, but it's cool and small.
For people who want something stronger I would suggest used Thinkpad laptop T series, they are built like tanks, but they are not loud

In addition, Intel NUC has been discontinued anyway. See https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/11/23790956/intel-nuc-compact-pc-discontinued. So anyone who buy it will get leftover stock and probably limited support in future.

You can find a bunch of used NAC devices everywhere, and you don't need latest processors for Bitcoin node.
I tested one few years ago, but it was a bit more loud for my taste.

[LoyceV]

I tested one few years ago, but it was a bit more loud for my taste.

It's not really a budget option yet, but fanless laptops exist! It's kinda funny how it took 40 years to go back to what "home computers had in the 80's. To complete the reversal, there are now phones with fans too
From my experience, many low-power (in watts, not in processing speed) laptops are completely quiet nowadays, unless they're under heavy load and need forced cooling. So after the IDB, adding 6 blocks per hour on an SSD should be quiet.

[philipma1957]

wants a fan so it is not silent
maxes at 8gb ram

I know.
They will probably release Raspberry Pi500 with huge silent cooler, something similar exist already for RPi400.
Even with good silent fan it is probably going to be more silent than regular computer.

but $159  and you need a bigger sd stick

It's not cheap, but it's cool and small.
For people who want something stronger I would suggest used Thinkpad laptop T series, they are built like tanks, but they are not loud

In addition, Intel NUC has been discontinued anyway. See https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/11/23790956/intel-nuc-compact-pc-discontinued. So anyone who buy it will get leftover stock and probably limited support in future.

You can find a bunch of used NAC devices everywhere, and you don't need latest processors for Bitcoin node.
I tested one few years ago, but it was a bit more loud for my taste.

Simply not a fan of the rasp pi gear.  Not that I have not owned every model except the 5. I used them for nodes I used them with Avalon's back in the day. I used them for LN. I simply do not care for the product as I feel it's just not enough processor/ram/storage.

I do like the tiny models from dell hp and Lenovo. even Mac minis until they made their own chips design in 2020.

lastly I have been getting used laptops for the last few years which I think are the best choice.

[apogio]

I 've seen people mentioning RPi4 being loud using active cooling. That's true. I have bought this case, and the temperature is super stable at around 50 - 55 celcius. This case has no fan or active cooling, so if you combine it with an SSD, you will not even hear it working.

[Lakai01]

[...]
lastly I have been getting used laptops for the last few years which I think are the best choice.

In principle, this is actually a very good and, above all, cost-effective idea. But aren't the devices significantly higher in terms of power consumption than a Raspberry, for example? At least if the laptop has a dedicated graphics card, that's a few watts that the laptop needs ...

In my country, unfortunately, the energy costs actually play a (rather huge) role in the profitability calculation ...

[LoyceV]

But aren't the devices significantly higher in terms of power consumption than a Raspberry, for example? At least if the laptop has a dedicated graphics card, that's a few watts that the laptop needs ...

It really depends on the laptop. My old laptop takes >20W with the screen off (1 SSD, 1 HDD). I've also seen laptops (with SSD) that take less than 10W. Don't get one with a dedicated graphics card. I prefer a CPU with TDP no more than 15W.
It's going to be difficult to beat the Raspberry, but power consumption can get quite low.

[Lakai01]

~

Thanks for the feedback LoyceV, less than 10W is absolutely impressive and far lower that I'd have expected.
Shouldn't ARM-based laptops (Chromebooks, Windows 10 ARM, ...) even be able to undercut this value? Whereby this is of course a question of the software, especially for this purpose the software will probably not be executable for ARM.

In any case, it's an interesting thought experiment and is now making me reconsider my Raspberry purchase. The Thinkpads in particular should be quite suitable for a low-watt strategy due to their processors ... I will definitely have a closer look into this topic now.

[LoyceV]

Thanks for the feedback LoyceV, less than 10W is absolutely impressive and far lower that I'd have expected.

Note that this is without heavy load, but most of the time the CPU is (almost) idling anyway.

Shouldn't ARM-based laptops (Chromebooks, Windows 10 ARM, ...) even be able to undercut this value?

I have no experience with those, and especially software compatibility. I like "the standard" that just works.

Wikipedia has a list of low-power CPUs. The Atom stands out (but is slow), the Celeron is slow but sold in massive numbers, the i3 and up come with different power and speed ratings. There's more to it than just the CPU, my "normal" laptop gets much warmer than my spare laptop, while both have the same TDP (15W). The CPU itself doesn't use that power most of the time.
My rule of thumb: if the device doesn't get warm without using it's fan, it can't use a lot of power. But measuring is better

[DaveF]

~

Thanks for the feedback LoyceV, less than 10W is absolutely impressive and far lower that I'd have expected.
Shouldn't ARM-based laptops (Chromebooks, Windows 10 ARM, ...) even be able to undercut this value? Whereby this is of course a question of the software, especially for this purpose the software will probably not be executable for ARM.

In any case, it's an interesting thought experiment and is now making me reconsider my Raspberry purchase. The Thinkpads in particular should be quite suitable for a low-watt strategy due to their processors ... I will definitely have a closer look into this topic now.

No. The netbooks / laptops have a lot of other things that will cause them to use (nominally) more power.
Circuits to charge / maintain the battery.
Things involved in dealing with the keyboard & screen. Even if you remove the screen there is still more there then just the HDMI output like the RPi.
Not a lot individually but they do add up.

-Dave

[philipma1957]

[...]
lastly I have been getting used laptops for the last few years which I think are the best choice.

In principle, this is actually a very good and, above all, cost-effective idea. But aren't the devices significantly higher in terms of power consumption than a Raspberry, for example? At least if the laptop has a dedicated graphics card, that's a few watts that the laptop needs ...

In my country, unfortunately, the energy costs actually play a (rather huge) role in the profitability calculation ...

well if you are 50 cents a kwatt or more  and burn 10 watts an hour it is 240 in a day or a kwatt every 4 days. say 100 kwatts in a year.

round up. so that is a $50 a year cost.

my home is 14 cents not 50 cents  so I am about 14 a year cost for a rasp pi and maybe 2x that for a laptop or a dell tiny

so 14 vs 28 and the 28 cost unit allow me full pc use.

vs 50 against 100 if you are 50 cent power cost.

I am not sure how much over 50 cents a kwatt you could be.

found this via google

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-electricity-by-country

Top 10 Countries With the Highest Electricity Costs:*
Denmark — 0.538
Germany — 0.530
United Kingdom — 0.479
Austria — 0.471
Italy — 0.470
Belgium — 0.452
Bermuda — 0.395
Spain — 0.373
Cayman Islands — 0.366
Czech Republic — 0.367



So based on that above the laptop could be as much as 107 a year to run. based on a constant 20 watts

and the rasp pi could be as low as 53.80 based on a constant 10 watts.


I am going to hook my laptop to a meter and see what it burns.

[DaveF]

Also important is the quality of the AC adapter.
In theory they should all be about the same. In the real world some of the cheap knockoff ones are bizarrely inefficient. As in you have to work hard to make them that bad.

A real Dell 90 watt laptop adapter should pull no more then 2A
I have in the pile of e-waste to be recycled some knock off fakes from Amazon that when pulling the full 90W @ 19.5 DC are pulling OVER 3A @ 125 AC or to put it another way FIRE HAZARD.

How can you actually make something that poorly with that much resistance that it gets to 130F?

So that does bring in an entire other discussion.
If you are using a full PC that will be on 24/7/365. Is buying a more efficient power supply worth it.



-Dave

[LoyceV]

No. The netbooks / laptops have a lot of other things that will cause them to use (nominally) more power.
Circuits to charge / maintain the battery.
Things involved in dealing with the keyboard & screen. Even if you remove the screen there is still more there then just the HDMI output like the RPi.
Not a lot individually but they do add up.

This got me curious, so I measured the power consumption of my coldest laptop. With the battery charged, the display on the lowest brightness setting, Wifi on and the CPU and SSD idling on the (Linux) desktop, I unplugged it. The house's electricity meter dropped 4W. That's as accurate as I can measure it, it could be 10-20% off of course, but I'd say it's quite impressive.
Here's another rule of thumb: with laptops, divide the battery capacity (in Wh) by the number of hours it's said to run on battery. The first new Lenovo laptop I checked, has a 47 Wh battery and lasts up to 10 hours (MM18) or up to 15 hours playing video. With those specs, it should be able to run a Bitcoin node on less than 5W.

[DaveF]

No. The netbooks / laptops have a lot of other things that will cause them to use (nominally) more power.
Circuits to charge / maintain the battery.
Things involved in dealing with the keyboard & screen. Even if you remove the screen there is still more there then just the HDMI output like the RPi.
Not a lot individually but they do add up.

This got me curious, so I measured the power consumption of my coldest laptop. With the battery charged, the display on the lowest brightness setting, Wifi on and the CPU and SSD idling on the (Linux) desktop, I unplugged it. The house's electricity meter dropped 4W. That's as accurate as I can measure it, it could be 10-20% off of course, but I'd say it's quite impressive.
Here's another rule of thumb: with laptops, divide the battery capacity (in Wh) by the number of hours it's said to run on battery. The first new Lenovo laptop I checked, has a 47 Wh battery and lasts up to 10 hours (MM18) or up to 15 hours playing video. With those specs, it should be able to run a Bitcoin node on less than 5W.

Remember there is a loss when converting from AC to DC. And there are losses when the AC adapter is just sitting there plugged in not doing anything.

You would also have the same losses with having the adapter for the RPi plugged in.

At the pennies or nickles a day to run a node it's probably not worth worrying about.

-Dave

[philipma1957]

No. The netbooks / laptops have a lot of other things that will cause them to use (nominally) more power.
Circuits to charge / maintain the battery.
Things involved in dealing with the keyboard & screen. Even if you remove the screen there is still more there then just the HDMI output like the RPi.
Not a lot individually but they do add up.

This got me curious, so I measured the power consumption of my coldest laptop. With the battery charged, the display on the lowest brightness setting, Wifi on and the CPU and SSD idling on the (Linux) desktop, I unplugged it. The house's electricity meter dropped 4W. That's as accurate as I can measure it, it could be 10-20% off of course, but I'd say it's quite impressive.
Here's another rule of thumb: with laptops, divide the battery capacity (in Wh) by the number of hours it's said to run on battery. The first new Lenovo laptop I checked, has a 47 Wh battery and lasts up to 10 hours (MM18) or up to 15 hours playing video. With those specs, it should be able to run a Bitcoin node on less than 5W.

Remember there is a loss when converting from AC to DC. And there are losses when the AC adapter is just sitting there plugged in not doing anything.

You would also have the same losses with having the adapter for the RPi plugged in.

At the pennies or nickles a day to run a node it's probably not worth worrying about.

-Dave

All this is why I have been doing laptops recently  first choice.

[LoyceV]

Remember there is a loss when converting from AC to DC. And there are losses when the AC adapter is just sitting there plugged in not doing anything.

That's why I unplugged the adapter from the wall socket. It's all included in the 4W.

[LoyceV]

And i'd like to mention many chromebook have only 4GB RAM and eMMC storage which is rather slow which isn't much different with Raspberry Pi 4.

On phones, I see Android as a necessary evil. I see no point in using a Chromebook, I've never used it and I imagine they're loaded with ads and Google's spyware. I'm not sure if that's true though, but I have no reason to find out.

[Lakai01]

While i agree with you, unfortunately Chromebook gaining popularity on low-end/cheap laptop category. Although unlike Android, some chromebook currently let you install different OS with no or little hurdle.

I can (unfortunately) confirm this. Chromebooks are already being issued to our primary school pupils and used in lessons. The children learn to work with these systems right from the start and therefore don't even know how limited the devices actually are.

However, I have not noticed any (excessive) advertising on the Chromebooks, no. It was very different with a Windows 11 computer that I recently had to repair. These adverts come across very obtrusively as "tips" or "suggested apps" and tempt inexperienced users to click ... and to buy:


Source

[...]

Thanks for the clarification @philipma1957 (unfortunately, I am out of sMerits ), that's actually not as tragic as I would have expected - even though my country is among the top countries you mentioned - unfortunately.

[philipma1957]

While i agree with you, unfortunately Chromebook gaining popularity on low-end/cheap laptop category. Although unlike Android, some chromebook currently let you install different OS with no or little hurdle.

I can (unfortunately) confirm this. Chromebooks are already being issued to our primary school pupils and used in lessons. The children learn to work with these systems right from the start and therefore don't even know how limited the devices actually are.

However, I have not noticed any (excessive) advertising on the Chromebooks, no. It was very different with a Windows 11 computer that I recently had to repair. These adverts come across very obtrusively as "tips" or "suggested apps" and tempt inexperienced users to click ... and to buy:


Source

[...]

Thanks for the clarification @philipma1957 (unfortunately, I am out of sMerits ), that's actually not as tragic as I would have expected - even though my country is among the top countries you mentioned - unfortunately.

YEAH NO WORRIES I am spoiled with 14-17 cents in house and 4.7 cents at the mine.

I am a bit busy but I will get to some photos posted here. Showing the Asus running a node.