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Author Topic: Angry at the high fees? That's what everyone predicted the future will be like!  (Read 1057 times)
Dr.Bitcoin_Strange
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November 10, 2023, 01:07:27 AM
 #21

Remember? We had 21 million topics about this!
So when this is going happens it will be pretty much like a security company, if the fees it gets from transactions are 5$ it will act just like a police officer who is paid the minimum wage on his retirement day, if the fees are in the millions, then you can afford one full battalion of bodyguards. Grin

Fee is definitely not going to be friendly then.

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November 10, 2023, 02:19:16 AM
 #22

Bitcoin ordinal should have system like Zksync roll up or something like that so basically like other EVM layer 2 they should contain all the transaction in one block so the ordinal should have verificator but I dont know if this gonna possible on Bitcoin Network and I dont know if NFT still popular nowadays.

Yes high fee is a shit  Grin I really dont like it and LN maybe the solution for now since big exchange like binance also start accepting it

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November 10, 2023, 03:34:29 AM
Merited by philipma1957 (2)
 #23

Although still too high for my tastes, fees have already come down about 50% since this topic was opened, so that's good at least.

I do blame Binance for listing $ORDI and basically being the first major exchange to implement Ordinals support. They benefit from fees being high for several reasons, not just because of their BTC mining pool:

- they can pass the costs off to their customers in the form of a bigger withdrawal fee
- this makes people not want to withdrawal their coins from the exchange (more liquidity for them), and
- they can point to BNB as a "cheaper alternative" than Bitcoin.

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November 10, 2023, 03:45:43 AM
Merited by philipma1957 (2)
 #24

Although still too high for my tastes, fees have already come down about 50% since this topic was opened, so that's good at least.

I do blame Binance for listing $ORDI and basically being the first major exchange to implement Ordinals support. They benefit from fees being high for several reasons, not just because of their BTC mining pool:

- they can pass the costs off to their customers in the form of a bigger withdrawal fee
- this makes people not want to withdrawal their coins from the exchange (more liquidity for them), and
- they can point to BNB as a "cheaper alternative" than Bitcoin.

Binance is smart as fuck since that is really happening now. They want people to think that they don't have any choice but to deal with their own coin as they offer more cheaper fees than dealing with directly to BTC or any other alts listed on their exchange.  The only thing we can do now is to deal with current situation since if we push to transact with high fees for sure we will get hurt with that.

For now let see if some may find a solution regarding to these issue so hopefully we can deal with bitcoin in future with more lesser fees.

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November 10, 2023, 03:48:43 AM
 #25

Although still too high for my tastes, fees have already come down about 50% since this topic was opened, so that's good at least.

I do blame Binance for listing $ORDI and basically being the first major exchange to implement Ordinals support. They benefit from fees being high for several reasons, not just because of their BTC mining pool:

- they can pass the costs off to their customers in the form of a bigger withdrawal fee
- this makes people not want to withdrawal their coins from the exchange (more liquidity for them), and
- they can point to BNB as a "cheaper alternative" than Bitcoin.

I have figure 10 or more cases that a company spending 10-25 btc can generate 200 btc fee costs.

They all involve major players and in every case they can profit by doing it.  Ordinals are but 1 method.

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November 10, 2023, 04:39:07 AM
 #26

So when this is going happens it will be pretty much like a security company, if the fees it gets from transactions are 5$ it will act just like a police officer who is paid the minimum wage on his retirement day, if the fees are in the millions, then you can afford one full battalion of bodyguards. Grin
Is it going to be like that though?

I see it in a different way.  By the time all Blocks are mined, there should be SO many more people involved in Bitcoin.  SO many more users.  This will increase number of Txs but probably on another Layer because I doubt the majority of Txs will happen on chain.

With more Bitcoin users come more Txs and with more Txs comes more Fees.  I keep seeing the price of Bitcoin as some sort of 'Bitcoin price has to be high enough for Miners to continue mining', which to me seems logical.  Bitcoin price by then should be unimaginably high.  Fees can not be too high because who in the world would pay a lot of money for one Tx then.

This means price has to grow enough every time for Fees to be worth collecting by Miners.  Am I wrong?

On the other hand there will be more Miners too I guess.  I do not know.  Just dispatching my theory over here in the wild.  Maybe has some sense.

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November 10, 2023, 04:58:14 AM
 #27

These fees are high due to a combination of bitcoin hitting new yearly highs and people sending BTC to exchanges to sell and take profit. Another reason is that Binance added ORDI and some other exchanges added SATS and it’s whats causing the mempool to be full.

If you really have an important transaction to make, then try and time your transaction time on the weekend. Usually late Saturday early Sunday there is little activity. If you wait until NY time especially on Monday the fees will most likely spike again. Same with Ethereum.

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November 10, 2023, 04:58:24 AM
 #28

Yeah well, such fees will be stopping new people from getting into/using BTC as well, who want to pay $10 fees for a transaction? Lightning isn't widely adopted yet and not all exchanges support it, some like Binance recently added it's support but they require kyc.

High fees help with security and help miners feed their families is not worthy argument, imo.

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November 10, 2023, 05:11:04 AM
 #29

Bitcoin's high transaction fees frustrate me after a few days. I haven't seen any permanent solution to Bitcoin's extra transaction fees so far. If I have to pay 10 to 15 dollar transaction fee to trade the amount of BTC that I need to trade, it is a big loss for me because I am not that big of an investor. I have stopped doing Bitcoin transactions now because of the extra transaction fees. A few days ago Bitcoin transaction fees were somewhat normal but now Bitcoin transaction fees have become abnormal again. Even if I need to now, I have to wait to trade bitcoins because it is not possible for me to trade bitcoins with 10 to 15 dollars.
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November 10, 2023, 09:04:27 AM
 #30

Yeah well, such fees will be stopping new people from getting into/using BTC as well, who want to pay $10 fees for a transaction? Lightning isn't widely adopted yet and not all exchanges support it, some like Binance recently added it's support but they require kyc.

High fees help with security and help miners feed their families is not worthy argument, imo.
That's only temporary as the fees will eventually subside and get to a point that you can easily move your transactions without worrying too much about the fees. In my opinion, this is actually a good thing for newbies because when they experience something like this that's totally defying their expectations on bitcoin, it might actually condition to not be easily brought down or panic when bear season starts. Finally someone said something about all of this fuzz about the high fees, people are getting the wrong idea that it's a bad thing for bitcoin and that this is like some kind of permanent thing.



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November 10, 2023, 10:13:26 AM
 #31

Yes I have the same though about Bitcoin yesterday, the only way that Bitcoin miners can be happy about mining Bitcoin is if it keeps coming with surprise gains when they don't expect it, I feel like the miners are a big part of Bitcoin, they need to feel at home at times, it's good that they are In more profit while mining since few days now, and somehow I am starting to appreciate the existence of Ordinals.

Let's think about it, the existence of Ordinals on Bitcoin will surely make the transaction fee to fluctuates at times and in a bull market it's going to get more constant, but this will encourage the miners to keep doing their things, if Bitcoin mining isn't profitable anymore it makes no sense and it can affect things more than we could imagine, what do you guys think?.

I will like to know if anyone is having this same thought as mine, I made a transaction yesterday and I paid $1.8 to send my Bitcoin to another address I think it's still fair enough but when the market goes way higher let's not forget that miners also need to reap the benefits too, not just the investors.

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PrivacyG
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November 10, 2023, 10:17:32 AM
 #32

Lightning isn't widely adopted yet and not all exchanges support it, some like Binance recently added it's support but they require kyc.
Expect Centralized Exchanges to have more harsh user requirements.  It is useless to bring Lightning and all the other features in the world if Know Your Customer is almost everywhere no matter the country or service now.  There is barely any well known and trusted Centralized Exchange with no Know Your Customer requirement.  So instead of looking for that.  Just start using Decentralized Exchanges instead or Peer to Peer trading.

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November 10, 2023, 03:42:31 PM
 #33

- if in the future we will pay 1 cent per tx we would have one cent worth of bodyguard
- if in the future we want to have the same level of security as now, we have to pay twice the fees we're paying in the last few blocks!

Again, nobody will be forcing you to do so, but....the are consequences if not! Grin
Good points, but you are talking about the future fee, while people who ask why the fee is rocketing are asking for the present time. Because in the future the block reward will decrease, ok, we got that, but now the reward is still 6.25 and the price of BTC in the future will be high enough in comparison to now that people might not hesitate to pay huge fees because inflation will be high also (as back then paying $10 for bread must be expensive, but now paying $10 is cheap). I hope you get my point.

Let's summarize it, in the future, everything will be way more expensive than now. The BTC price would be around $500k (maybe), and the fee for one transaction can reach around $10 to $300 (maybe, but let's assume). People will not hesitate to pay a huge fee, but now the price of BTC is around $37k, and the transaction fee is increasing w.r.t. the price tag while the block reward still holds the same. That's why people are asking the reason of high TX fee.

All this skyrocketing fee is due to the original shit, especially when the ORDI token based on the BTC blockchain causes the price to shoot up. Anyway, you make your points clear, and we all should keep them in mind, but my theory is that we should not panic to see the fee and should follow the tip of using LN you have developed, or maybe in the future we won't mind paying a huge fee as time passes.

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November 10, 2023, 03:51:29 PM
 #34

Remember? We had 21 million topics about this!
So when this is going happens it will be pretty much like a security company, if the fees it gets from transactions are 5$ it will act just like a police officer who is paid the minimum wage on his retirement day, if the fees are in the millions, then you can afford one full battalion of bodyguards. Grin

Fee is definitely not going to be friendly then.

Or maybe should we expect the community to develop a long lasting solution to this bitcoin transaction fee being inflated on seasonal occassions, do we even think that the developers will all agree to erase the inscriptions or bring a perfect solution to settle the high fees, because i know we can't be left helpless with this in such kind of situations, even if the fees comes down now, how are we sure nothing is coming again in the near future to get things worst than before when the whole network is clogged by ordinals.

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November 10, 2023, 03:53:32 PM
 #35

~snip
Considering the incredible opportunities that the bitcoin provides, then high fees are not so high against this background. Well, for example, sending bitcoin (in any quantity) to anywhere in the world for $15.31 - isn’t that funny? Any other way would have cost much more, and not at all faster. We need to learn to appreciate what we have.

If the fees directly affects the security of the bitcoin network, then it is not at all a pity to pay double the price. This can be regarded as a contribution to support the network.

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November 10, 2023, 03:56:15 PM
 #36

Instead of complaining, we must look at its positive view and the opportunity it created for us to secure our assets because, without the help of bitcoins, we could still be prisoners to the banks and do everything as they say. Those transaction fees are nothing compared to what we have right now and the price of bitcoins is increasing and that's understandable to many investors because they already know this could happen every time the price of bitcoins increases due to the congested networks.

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November 10, 2023, 08:38:16 PM
 #37

To make it as short as possible, for the network to have the same security as now without a block reward we would need each block to have twice as big fees in the future, that's how things work!
So, are you angry with high fees? Yes, we all are, but, wasn't this the design?

Before anyone comes up with some myths about this, let's clear some things

1) More efficient gear isn't making the network more secure alone, what's making the network secure is the amount of $ to invest to generate that hashrate, so if you think more efficient gear will mean the network will be just as secure but cheaper, it's delusional.
Right now the network is guarded by 400Exahash, which alone doesn't mean a thing, you must translate those into 4 million $2000 a piece machines to understand the security right now, as it takes 8 billion to launch a 51% attack. This also doesn't mean that because the hashrate in 2013 was one million lower you could attack it at that time with just 8000$  Wink

2) Cheaper energy or solar or renewable or anything else, again won't solve a thing, even if we run our gear on 0.1 cents per kWh if the reward per day is just $1000 you will only be able to afford 1Gkwh, so anyone willing to spend more than $1000 on energy will have the upper hand!

So, as a conclusion or encouragement or whatever, don't be angry at the fees, they help secure the network, and this is how it was designed to be in the first place, otherwise, we would end up like Bitcoin Gold or Ethereum classic, shitcoins getting 51% attacked 3 times in a row.

And of course, for now, we could actually start using LN rather than complaining, but that would be a solution that involves doing something!

Wrong. It was expected for the success of Bitcoin, higher fees due to everyone transacting more bitcoins, not spam meme trash or outright parasite nfts, etc. Even before the spam attack, people were complaining that Bitcoin couldn't transact as many transactions as other systems. Well for sure with the spam it would transact less now, good for you?.

The spam sustains mining? No, it is the bitcoin market price. Mining will shrink no matter what, that is why there is a halving, there will be less and less bitcoins minted. The only reason this gets delayed, is because the market price of bitcoin rises. And this too, is slowing down, it will increase less and less, a repeat of the historical price of gold, as intended.

The security is not affected because the miners that are leaving, they do so because its so much more expensive to mine, and so is the 51% attack. This is something you don't see because you are looking at it linearly, and its not. THE reason mining diminishes, is because its too expensive to achieve, and that also makes the attack more expensive, with enough people leaving the diff goes back down attracting back some mining balancing itself. No, everyone won't simply disappear, there will be enough miners just less of them but still enough to make the attack cost more than the possible return. The last miners will be home miners who don't care to operate at a loss or from renewable energy, the opposite of what you claim. Investing now in renewable energy with the profits you made from mining, will ensure you will be there mining when all the others are gone, and gone they will be, maybe next halving or the one after it, it depends a lot in the market price of bitcoin.

The spam only halts normal transactions. The excuse that this makes mining profitable is a lie. Right now you can see it, it barely adds an extra bitcoin to the blocks. And yet, it makes the user experience awful for everybody else. Some pools are pushing the spam for cheap, so the spam is getting in while legit transactions are getting kicked out of the mempool.

The fact that you mention lightning network, means you have not tried to open a LN node when this mess is going on, you should try it and suffer. Oh, but what about using someone else's node? Sure, trust some stranger won't steal your coins or sell your info, just he opposite of what Bitcoin is all about...

Who benefits from this? Why, of course, those that claim that Bitcoin sucks, And THEIR "solution" is "better"... They are laughing while they see Bitcoin getting worse, and hey, they even get a few extra months of mining out of it, win/win!

Everyone here knows who are the losers from this charade. What do companies who mine to sell for fiat care, or those playing trading with futures pool capital, etc. The humble miner that kept all the coins will have the last word in the future when its not profitable to mine anymore. Look at Dogecoin, why are there people still mining an infinite supply coin? Do you think nobody will mine Bitcoin just because it becomes unprofitable to do so? And yes, it WILL become unprofitable, there is nothing you can do about it, the spam will not be enough to sustain it, all you gain from it may be days but the result is the same. Therefore your justification is invalid.

Spam cannot be justified, it doesn't bring anything, its actually taking away from a project with a goal which is to give the world a currency not made by the State. Make it worse, make it centralized and prone to abuse, while making some cash while laughing at the misery of others. No it won't destroy Bitcoin, eventually the spam will probably leave for elsewhere, but the path to abuse remains open and demonstrated plenty, so repeated occurrences can only harm Bitcoin reputation as a project whole and perhaps harm adoption for what it was intended (not a cloud data base, that's for sure, many better projects for that).

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November 10, 2023, 09:29:00 PM
 #38

~
Fee is definitely not going to be friendly then.

One thing!
Probably I should have mentioned and bolded it in the first post!
I am telling people that we are going to have to pay those fees if we want the same level of security, not that we are required!

Is it going to be like that though?

I see it in a different way.  By the time all Blocks are mined, there should be SO many more people involved in Bitcoin.  SO many more users.  This will increase number of Txs but probably on another Layer because I doubt the majority of Txs will happen on chain.
With more Bitcoin users come more Txs and with more Txs comes more Fees.
~
This means price has to grow enough every time for Fees to be worth collecting by Miners.  Am I wrong?

You can't have more tx in the blockchain without increasing the block space!
Fees paid on the second layer, like LN don't go to miners they go to LN node owners.
So, no!  Grin


Good points, but you are talking about the future fee, while people who ask why the fee is rocketing are asking for the present time. Because in the future the block reward will decrease, ok, we got that, but now the reward is still 6.25 and the price of BTC in the future will be high enough in comparison to now that people might not hesitate to pay huge fees because inflation will be high also (as back then paying $10 for bread must be expensive, but now paying $10 is cheap). I hope you get my point.

Doesn't work like that because paying for a product is not the product.
If you had the choice of paying 10$ of bread but it would cost you 0 with a vis card, 10 cents with Doge and 10$ with BTC, what ar you going to do?
Furthermore, this is what happens when the block reward is gone, I highlighted that in the first post.

Considering the incredible opportunities that the bitcoin provides, then high fees are not so high against this background. Well, for example, sending bitcoin (in any quantity) to anywhere in the world for $15.31 - isn’t that funny? Any other way would have cost much more, and not at all faster.

How many people do sent money outside their country every day? Like 0.01% of the population?
How many people pay under 100$ for their daily shopping? 90%?
You will need to pay $15 for a 3$ lipstick for the pig you're advertising  Grin

The security is not affected because the miners that are leaving, they do so because its so much more expensive to mine, and so is the 51% attack.

Wrong, a 51% attack will become far easier
- an attacker doesn't have to be profitable and doesn't need to sustain this for months
- if miners drop from mining it means cheaper gear available at scrap price
- if miners stop mining it means more places with cheaper than normal electricity
- if miners go bankrupt it means somebody can get 5$ of the hashrate for a few pennies

The last miners will be home miners who don't care to operate at a loss or from renewable energy, the opposite of what you claim. Investing now in renewable energy with the profits you made from mining,

Yeah, BS!
People are arguing about making blocks bigger because nodes can't afford a 100$ drive and you think people in their home will run 3000W miners!
And pay for the battery to keep it running, cause what's $12 000 when $100 is too much?

The fact that you mention lightning network, means you have not tried to open a LN node when this mess is going on,  

You don't get hit by a car by crossing when it's a green light, not by praying it turns green when you're under its wheels.
If people had used LN normally till now most would have already had enough funds running in it to avoid complaining of not being able to send $30 without paying 10$, we had one month of 1 sat/b, and after 6 months of high fees, how many started using LN since then...crickets!

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franky1
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November 10, 2023, 09:46:42 PM
Last edit: November 10, 2023, 10:03:02 PM by franky1
 #39

To make it as short as possible, for the network to have the same security as now without a block reward we would need each block to have twice as big fees in the future, that's how things work!
So, are you angry with high fees? Yes, we all are, but, wasn't this the design?

two things you are ignoring

1. fee's per transaction dont need to be twice as big.. instead number of transactions could be 4x as big meaning fees become HALF as much per transaction, whilst still offering 2x for the pool  .. see how math works

2. you also did not figure into it that if 2million asics costs $Xbillion amount of electric per year the PRICE IN DOLLARS per sat can increase without needing the sat per byte to increase.
infact with the prices per dollar increasing, the sat per byte should be dropping

the solution is not to get people to pay more per tx.. but instead make tx leaner, allow more tx per block so people can pay less individually but it accumilates to a worthy total

bitcoin was not designed to pay asic farms millions of dollars per block. asics farms were not even a thing when bitcoin was invented.. instead it was for a payment system for the unbanked to use to be better then the fiat banks fee's and methods .. where the monetary price value of the coin increased to cover costs..
CPU mining solo 1btc 10c
GPU pool mining 1btc $6
single asic owner pool mining 1BTC $300
asic farm pool mining recent gen asics 1btc 1btc $17k+
 simple economics

satoshi also mentioned about increasing blocksize, and efficient tx size for better tx count per block.. and yet 14 years later even when satoshi was talking about expecting 4200tx per block.. bitcoin is not averaging that amount it VERY RARELY peaks near it
https://api.blockchain.info/charts/preview/n-transactions-per-block.png?timespan=3years&h=405&w=720

and that 4200 number was based on 1mb blocksize. let alone 4mb so we should be averaging 16800tx per block average after 14 years

the first 13 years we didnt even get above 2600tx average..
recent year 4k on and off(mostly off)
but yes based on IF we actually cared about efficient use we should be well over 10k closer to 15k .. but we are not. so we are paying 4x more then we should due to lack of efficiency design tweaks


I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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November 10, 2023, 10:34:13 PM
 #40

I agree with the @OP stand but one thing is lacking here, and that is the development of Bitcoin.  I believe Bitcoin will continuously evolve and be upgraded to be suited to the needs of users and miners.  If there is no changes in the structure of the Bitcoin system scalability, with larger adoption up ahead, we might see a larger transaction fee than this.  So I am not surprised if one day only a few individuals can afford an on-chain transaction and many probably will be using lightning-network-like implementation.

So I think to avoid this kind of scenario, Bitcoin must scale.

~
Fee is definitely not going to be friendly then.

One thing!
Probably I should have mentioned and bolded it in the first post!
I am telling people that we are going to have to pay those fees if we want the same level of security, not that we are required!

Not necessarily need to pay, if only the Bitcoin scalability issue is solved, then we won't be paying the transaction fee that much.

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