Zero Knowledge Proof: How helpful can this be to Bitcoin?

[panganib999]

I've been ogling Zero Knowledge Proof ever since talks about it have been made since Ethereum's switch to Proof of Stake. And it does make sense for something like Zero Knowledge Proof to be implemented into networks like Ethereum as it vastly improves interoperability, transaction wait times and fees, as well as the overall experience while using their network. However, this got me thinking, would the same be possible for Bitcoin? Could zero-knowledge proofs be the answer to the ongoing scalability issues and all that shit we've been debating against each other about for years now?

What are your thoughts about this, what could I have mistaken for? Any crypto tech wiz here?

For those who only knew about ZK proof through this post, give this quick read a looksee: Zero-knowledge proofs, explained

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[btc78]

this is my first time hearing about this

and upon reading the link you provided it didn’t make sense to me at first what use could we have for this in the cryptocurrency scene as it seemed more of a psychological technique
but the explanation for how it can be used in cryptocurrency totally made sense!

i thought bitcoin already had a system like this? what could this be different for bitcoin?

[Kemarit]

There is also a discussion about it in the Development & Technical Discussion board by @OmegaStarScream, ZK-proof on Bitcoin.

[suzanne5223]

However, this got me thinking, would the same be possible for Bitcoin? Could zero-knowledge proofs be the answer to the ongoing scalability issues and all that shit we've been debating against each other about for years now?

Zero-knowledge proof may be considered in Bitcoin since it will solve scalability and privacy and it may not be considered but if it's considered then we're going to see another BTC fork coin. However, zero-knowledge proof also has its own drawbacks despite its benefits and it's just like the Tor browser you may not get the needed privacy if not used properly.

[Text]

This proof contradicts the nature of blockchain as a public ledger or records for transparency because it hides the basic information of a transaction. I doubt that it will enhance the scalability, ZKP is complex when integrating into an existing protocol, and it may cause vulnerabilities such as bugs and errors. And it will add additional computational work, which is difficult to scale.
When it comes to privacy, we don’t directly link our identity to a wallet public address unless you reveal and expose it, so we can remain anonymous if we want to and avoid using centralized platforms.

[jrrsparkles]

Bitcoin will not switch from PoW to PoS no matter what so the concept of zero-knowledge proof or whatever will be irrelevant to Bitcoin.

Scalability issues have been discussed multiple times and the answer that is there is no way the size of the block will be increased further by 1 MB. And if you think Bitcoin transactions are slower then try utilizing the L2 layer features.

[Yamane_Keto]

From what I understand, Zero Knowledge Proof does not require a collective consensus and can therefore be run by node managers to reduce the space well, which means ease and speed of synchronization. Its impact on Bitcoin will be apparent in off-chain calculations, and on-chain implementation is only required if there is a dispute, so it may contribute to the development of Sidechains and daily use of Bitcoin.

[348Judah]

I've been ogling Zero Knowledge Proof ever since talks about it have been made since Ethereum's switch to Proof of Stake. And it does make sense for something like Zero Knowledge Proof to be implemented into networks like Ethereum as it vastly improves interoperability, transaction wait times and fees, as well as the overall experience while using their network. However, this got me thinking, would the same be possible for Bitcoin? Could zero-knowledge proofs be the answer to the ongoing scalability issues and all that shit we've been debating against each other about for years now?

You cannot dtart making comparable analysis of bitcoin with altcoins, you know that yourself that that's impossible, bitcoin has it own network and works according to it protocols, if you think thie issues of increasing transaction fees is going to be the problem you can have with bitcoin then maybe you should also consider other benefits bitcoin has over the other cryptocurrencies as well, ay least there were times things were very high with bitcoin transaction before the introduction of lightning network, now ordinals comes up, but before this.

The transaction fee has always been high occasionally, let's wait to see the lasting solution to this, i believe it's not going to be hard like this forever, neither should we take this as a zero knowledge proof of whatsoever thing it may be, bitcoin network is still the most preferred over any form of centralized coins or network.

[Faisal2202]

i thought bitcoin already had a system like this? what could this be different for bitcoin?

Nah if after reading the article you still think BTC already had this system then I suggest reading it again, basically, ZKPs were meant for privacy concerns and still are, even many mixers like Tornado Cash is using ZKPs and as far as I remember it gets the useful information from the users but due to the zero-knowledge consensus it doesn't. It's a little confusing but you will get it. I prefer to read this thread suggested by Kemarit

However, zero-knowledge proof also has its own drawbacks despite its benefits and it's just like the Tor browser you may not get the needed privacy if not used properly.

You are right but OP's concerns are about scalability issues not about privacy issues, and yeah there is no doubt that the implementation of ZKPs will increase privacy because the information will remain hidden I think the implementation of Zk-Snarks might end Mixer's career.

Bitcoin will not switch from PoW to PoS no matter what so the concept of zero-knowledge proof or whatever will be irrelevant to Bitcoin...

I don't know how much you know about ZKPs but it definitely does not mean a technology using ZKPs has to shift into a POS mechanism, so ZKPs are not irrelevant to BTC but I like your suggestion of the L2 layer.

[jrrsparkles]

Bitcoin will not switch from PoW to PoS no matter what so the concept of zero-knowledge proof or whatever will be irrelevant to Bitcoin...

I don't know how much you know about ZKPs but it definitely does not mean a technology using ZKPs has to shift into a POS mechanism, so ZKPs are not irrelevant to BTC but I like your suggestion of the L2 layer.

Upon reading the article I understand that it can be implemented on PoW networks too but this is against the decentralization right, how can we rely on two parties and how can we be sure that they are not involved in dubious activities?

I don't know, how this will work but it will put the decentralization into question if I am not wrong.

[Faisal2202]

Upon reading the article I understand that it can be implemented on PoW networks too but this is against the decentralization right, how can we rely on two parties and how can we be sure that they are not involved in dubious activities?

I did not get what two parties are you talking about, because ZKPs are just a protocol that can increase the privacy of the system with a zero knowledge model we can call it a trustless system where we don't have to trust the other party so what's remain there to afraid of dubious activities.

By privacy incrementing factor of ZKPs, did you mean to say one would fraud other if yes then how it is related to decentralization, because for a seamless transaction one has to open a smart contract and the BTC blockchain is already capable of doing that, if you are making a deal then make a smart contract. If I still have not mentioned the real meaning of what you are saying then please elaborate more what you mean by a party scenario.

[mindrust]

I've been ogling Zero Knowledge Proof ever since talks about it have been made since Ethereum's switch to Proof of Stake. And it does make sense for something like Zero Knowledge Proof to be implemented into networks like Ethereum as it vastly improves interoperability, transaction wait times and fees, as well as the overall experience while using their network. However, this got me thinking, would the same be possible for Bitcoin? Could zero-knowledge proofs be the answer to the ongoing scalability issues and all that shit we've been debating against each other about for years now?

What are your thoughts about this, what could I have mistaken for? Any crypto tech wiz here?

For those who only knew about ZK proof through this post, give this quick read a looksee: Zero-knowledge proofs, explained

Developing and verifying ZK-proofs can be resource- and computationally intensive, particularly for more complicated proofs. This can result in longer processing times for transactions and more computational work, which might make blockchain systems more difficult to scale.

Furthermore, ZK-proofs might add a layer of complexity that might make the protocol more difficult to audit and verify, sparking worries about potential security flaws or bugs.

The article actually says the waiting times will be longer.

The second bold part is the biggest problem: Over-engineering.

The more complicated the solution is, the more potential attack vectors there will be. We should always follow the principle of simplicity unless we really have no other choice. There is no easy way out of this really, at least for now... Layer2 is still a good solution and we should adopt it instead of making everything more complicated.

[suzanne5223]

However, zero-knowledge proof also has its own drawbacks despite its benefits and it's just like the Tor browser you may not get the needed privacy if not used properly.

You are right but OP's concerns are about scalability issues not about privacy issues, and yeah there is no doubt that the implementation of ZKPs will increase privacy because the information will remain hidden I think the implementation of Zk-Snarks might end Mixer's career.

I was also talking about the privacy aspect provided by ZKP if it's not performed very well.
Yes, there's a chance that ZKPs may end the use of Bitcoin mixer but people are advised to use 2-3 anonymous services when privacy is a total priority in other not to leave some stone unturned. Therefore, ZKP will only limit the usage of the Crypto mixer and I hope to see the implementation of ZKP in the future for more competition in the tumbler space.

[franky1]

very simplified and very dumbed down

imagine 6 people wanted to private trade several times between each other in a taproot multisig

A BC1qUserA 0.01 -> bc1pZKReserve 0.01
B BC1qUserA 0.012 -> bc1pZKReserve 0.012
C BC1qUserA 0.011 -> bc1pZKReserve 0.011
D BC1qUserA 0.013 -> bc1pZKReserve 0.013
E BC1qUserA 0.012 -> bc1pZKReserve 0.012
F BC1qUserA 0.014 -> bc1pZKReserve 0.014
                         (total 0.072...  0.002 will be used to cover future fees)

bc1pZKReserve 0.01\               /bc1pZKReserve 0.00623521
bc1pZKReserve 0.012\\           //bc1pZKReserve 0.01425654
bc1pZKReserve 0.011\\\ ->    ///bc1pZKReserve 0.02834512
bc1pZKReserve 0.013///        \\\bc1pZKReserve 0.00356482
bc1pZKReserve 0.012//           \\bc1pZKReserve 0.01025485
bc1pZKReserve 0.014/              \bc1pZKReserve 0.00734346
                               (total 0.07... fee amount deducted for the 0.002)

the purple amounts do add upto 0.07 so still pass the bitcoin audit that no coins are generated or lost

however inside the multisig/contract/party.. the amounts each output shows publicly are not really what the participants are owed and the address doesnt reveal which participant is which
this is because the contract has maths of s secret formula to take the participants private owed totals and produce a new set of apparently random sat amounts unlike the owed amounts. but still total the input total.

that way the blockchain ledger shows good audit. doesnt create or lose coin.. but doesnt reveal REAL amounts owed to any participant nor reveal which participant is which output

[Faisal2202]

I was also talking about the privacy aspect provided by ZKP if it's not performed very well.
Yes, there's a chance that ZKPs may end the use of Bitcoin mixer but people are advised to use 2-3 anonymous services when privacy is a total priority in other not to leave some stone unturned. Therefore, ZKP will only limit the usage of the Crypto mixer and I hope to see the implementation of ZKP in the future for more competition in the tumbler space.

Ok now I got your point and yeah I have almost the same idea, ZKP is basically a tool to enhance privacy and yeah it can give Mixers solid competition but don't forget both combined will provide more privacy and many mixers are already using ZKP to provide this enhanced privacy. Actually, I was trying to say, that if BTC blockchain comes with this feature then the traffic on Mixer might reduce because now people are getting a built-in feature to remain anonymous so why would they select a third-party platform?

And yeah there is no doubt that to remain anonymous we have to follow more than 1 step to remain anonymous.

[bluebit25]

What are your thoughts about this, what could I have mistaken for? Any crypto tech wiz here?

Continue doing what they do best and maybe even make new changes, but I think the solution to the problem the OP needs could be Wrapped Bitcoin.

The core technology may be different but this is the product that I know about bitcoin that is quite similar to the need that Op is wondering about.
https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/rsk