OFAC-Sanctioned Transactions Being Censored

[alani123]

A smart client is not that smart if it endorses censorship that might turn up against them in the future.

Besides that. "Information is easy to spread but hard to stifle"-- Someone someone. You cannot prevent information from spreading across a peer-to-peer network. If a few pro-censorship nodes decide to blacklist addresses, the owners of the blacklisted coins can simply select to broadcast them elsewhere.

Yes, transaction data can be broadcasted to hell and back, perhaps even stored on a full node literally on the moon.
But if a miner doesn't include it in his blocks, what's the point?
That's the issue here. No matter how you broadcast transactions, miners wield more power over users.

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[BlackHatCoiner]

But if a miner doesn't include it in his blocks, what's the point?

The point is that some other miner can do it, and take their profit. That's where censorship resistance originates from. A miner dislikes a transaction? Another will mine it. A mining pool operator dislikes a transaction? Another will mine it. All big mining pools' operators dislike a transaction? Then maybe miners have to migrate elsewhere, where they get to decide these crucial policies. If they don't, then the entire game theory starts falling apart, and that is nobody's benefit but the governments'.

[Poker Player]

You really think people will be so enthusiastic to abandon cash in favor of CBDC, social credit score, carbon credits, 15-min cities?

Only a gullible person would believe that... I think Bitcoiners can do better than that.

So I have dismantled the garbage argument that was a pure conspiracy and you come back to me with the adjective "gullible". Read again and see to whom you have to apply the adjective.

I doubt anyone here is entertaining that notion, but it's the kind of thing the bureaucrats obsess over.  

Yes, well, the concern for privacy that I see on the forum I don't see on the street in my day to day life where almost nobody pays with cash anymore. From there to enthusiastically using CBDCs is a step.

Another curious thing is that CBDCs indeed eliminate the need for conventional banks in the same way that a combine harvester eliminates the need for human hand harvesters. But it seems the bureaucrats don't want that part of progress, or at least they don't want it to happen too fast.

The masses have a distinct knack for acting against their own self-interests when given the opportunity, so it won't be as easy as it might sound to convince them that CBDCs are very bad for them.  You'd be surprised at how quickly some might embrace this mass-surveillance foolishness.

I am starting to see some resistance to CBDCs from non-Bitcoin environments, but minimal. I'm pessimistic on the subject. There have been countries like Venezuela and Nigeria where the launch of CBDCs has been a failure but I think in other parts of the world is going to be different.

[pooya87]

The government are not going to stop kicking down doors until they achieve their goal, unless we do something to stop them. Shaking our fists and hoping for the best is insufficient.

It is a never ending war that we should continue fighting and defending Bitcoin. The Stratum V2 shows that there is still hope and we are on the correct path.

Yes, well, the concern for privacy that I see on the forum I don't see on the street in my day to day life where almost nobody pays with cash anymore. From there to enthusiastically using CBDCs is a step.

People usually don't become aware of something they've lost until it hits them in the face. And the way the governments invade privacy is slow and unnoticed so people don't panic! For example they knew NSA was monitoring their every move but they didn't go nuts until the intelligence leak went viral. Then again they forgot about it shortly after.

It's the same with banks and also CBDCs. Until it doesn't go down like 2008 and blow up in their faces, they won't realize what they don't already have.

[o_e_l_e_o]

It's the same with banks and also CBDCs. Until it doesn't go down like 2008 and blow up in their faces, they won't realize what they don't already have.

By which point it will be too late to change anything. We will never be able to go back to before mass surveillance. Once CBDCs are launched, we will never be able to go back to before they existed. And once the government have control of the bitcoin network and can censor at will, we will never be able to go back to it being free. Which is why we need to be discussing solutions now.

[cryptosize]

So I have dismantled the garbage argument that was a pure conspiracy and you come back to me with the adjective "gullible". Read again and see to whom you have to apply the adjective.

I'm sorry, but you're the one who has garbage counterarguments here. You insult my intelligence when you insinuate that people will be happy to accept CBDC (along with its consequences).

There is no conspiracy theory regarding CBDC (Digital ID, carbon credits, social credit score, 15-min cities).

It's already a reality in China and they're preparing to bring it in the West, only because there are gullible people like you who know nothing about WEF, Great Reset, Klaus Schwab.

ps: I know many non-BTC people (no-coiners) who resist against CBDC and want to retain cash at all costs.

Eventually they will be forced to shallow the orange pill, but at least they resist against this sci-fi dystopia...

[cryptosize]

People usually don't become aware of something they've lost until it hits them in the face. And the way the governments invade privacy is slow and unnoticed so people don't panic! For example they knew NSA was monitoring their every move but they didn't go nuts until the intelligence leak went viral. Then again they forgot about it shortly after.

It's the same with banks and also CBDCs. Until it doesn't go down like 2008 and blow up in their faces, they won't realize what they don't already have.

It's the same with banks and also CBDCs. Until it doesn't go down like 2008 and blow up in their faces, they won't realize what they don't already have.

By which point it will be too late to change anything. We will never be able to go back to before mass surveillance. Once CBDCs are launched, we will never be able to go back to before they existed. And once the government have control of the bitcoin network and can censor at will, we will never be able to go back to it being free. Which is why we need to be discussing solutions now.

Judging by this thread, there is some denial that CBDCs aren't necessarily a bad thing, in fact it's such a "good" thing that people will be "enthusiastic" to abandon physical cash in favor of CBDC!

My disappointment arises from the fact that I have high expectations from Bitcoiners (unless they pretend to be Bitcoiners and in reality they're undercover feds)... they should not be so gullible.

CBDC is like a digital jail. Once you enter it, there is no going back to normal (as Klaus Schwab has said).

[stompix]

I don't believe that the masses control the world. Maybe they did once, but not anymore. Democracy is a failure. It's just the least worse regime comparably to the rest. Or as someone had once put it, "Democracy is the worst regime, except all the others". For it to function properly, it requires strong citizen maturity and character, and that is almost never the case. Granted. It is the closest thing we have to harmoniously live alongside and, by compromises, to maintain a healthy community. But it's self-destructive, just as humans. It is inevitable at some point that social institutions will corrupt, and the people will not just turn against the corrupted institution, but to the democratic system itself.

And that is why I like Bitcoin. It is not a democracy. It requires little effort to work; and works good. It is not controlled by the masses, but by neither a tyrant. It inherits the good virtues of democracy without incorporating the extensive effort and conditions it entails. You need Internet connection and a computer. Boom, money sent overseas secured by a mechanism which converts human greed to collective benefit. The bet is that this beautiful combo can overcome human corruption, or at the very least, navigate around it.

Hihihi, you forgot one thing, the one that makes the world spin, MONEY!

Every system will work, even democracy or communism will do perfectly until you hit the money thing, and that's when the problems come, based on the scale of money involved, the ability of an individual to seize it all and the price everyone puts on their beliefs, so if they sell that for 10 cents a day, there you go NK failure.

And that will come to Bitcoin, Bitcoin itself is just a  protocol, it can't become corrupted on his own, but as any protocol it relies on humans, humans update its features, humans host nodes, humans host miners, humans make transactions, and so on, but most importantly!!!
Humans make MONEY out of this, and this feature is the point of failure if it's impossible to find a mechanism to prevent is, which is not that easy.

But you know what's the currents stop? Also money!
So miners won't do something stupid because they will lose money on it, now offer them twice as much and you'll see how frail the protocol is against greed, but right now it's money that's guarding the network.

With how expensive PoW mining is becoming each day, things are going to get worse in the long run (more centralization). BTC needs to switch to an ASIC-resistant algorithm to strip away big mining companies and centralized mining pools from power.

There is no such thing!
No matter what protocol you choose you can design an ASIC that will outperform your average Joe computer by an order of magnitude.
What's preventing some coins for being mined by ASICs is their daily reward, if that is worth a few thousand dollars a day nobody will invest in building an ASIC for that, but with BTC we talk about 30-40 million a day.

You really think people will be so enthusiastic to abandon cash in favor of CBDC, social credit score, carbon credits, 15-min cities?
Only a gullible person would believe that... I think Bitcoiners can do better than that.

You really think people would abandon cash for credit cards, hard cash in hand for 401k, your free spending for FICO ? Oh wait...
We're talking about 8 billion people, and 14 years in which way less than 40 million (and these are addresses not wallets) have chosen to be their own bank, probably the right numbers being lower than even 5 million.

[cryptosize]

With how expensive PoW mining is becoming each day, things are going to get worse in the long run (more centralization). BTC needs to switch to an ASIC-resistant algorithm to strip away big mining companies and centralized mining pools from power.

There is no such thing!
No matter what protocol you choose you can design an ASIC that will outperform your average Joe computer by an order of magnitude.
What's preventing some coins for being mined by ASICs is their daily reward, if that is worth a few thousand dollars a day nobody will invest in building an ASIC for that, but with BTC we talk about 30-40 million a day.

Not true.

Have you studied Monero's RandomX algorithm?

It's designed in a specific way that favors CPUs (especially Ryzen ones), so that if someone wanted to design an equivalent ASIC chip, it would be as complex/expensive as a Ryzen processor.

So why not buy Ryzen in the first place?

SHA-256 is a very simple algorithm compared to RandomX, that's why it's possible to outperform regular PCs. Apples to oranges comparison.

Btw, I'm not saying that BTC should do a hard fork (like XMR does from time to time). The SHA-256 ASIC investment is too high to ignore/abandon it.

You really think people will be so enthusiastic to abandon cash in favor of CBDC, social credit score, carbon credits, 15-min cities?
Only a gullible person would believe that... I think Bitcoiners can do better than that.

You really think people would abandon cash for credit cards, hard cash in hand for 401k, your free spending for FICO ? Oh wait...
We're talking about 8 billion people, and 14 years in which way less than 40 million (and these are addresses not wallets) have chosen to be their own bank, probably the right numbers being lower than even 5 million.

Care to explain why the "uneducated" Nigerians didn't accept CBDC?

What makes you think that Americans/Europeans are "inferior"? Even though they started famous revolutions in the past?

Give me some compelling arguments.

The only way they can possibly lure people into CBDC is by providing a generous UBI (Varoufakis had proposed €2000/month during the COVID plandemic). Andrew Yang had proposed $1000/month in 2013 (more like $2000 with today's inflation taken into account).

Sure, that's a way, but you risk crazy high inflation (although there are ways to mitigate it, such as smart contracts limiting the amount of products you can buy -> i.e. less red meat, more insects).

Still though, people are not that dumb to ditch red meat in favor of insects. China has a different culture, they also have overpopulation, which means they're forced to eat literally everything that walks and flies.

Do you guys seriously envision the West becoming like China? Is that what you want for your children?

[BlackHatCoiner]

And that will come to Bitcoin, Bitcoin itself is just a  protocol, it can't become corrupted on his own, but as any protocol it rilies on humans

But not in the same sense as with democracy. Sure, it is a human fabrication, but with as much little human presence required as possible. The reliance on the people in charge is minimum. There is an absence of bribery, lobbying, and bailouts, not because those in charge adhere to absolute moral standards; no one does. Everyone has their weaknesses. The chemical reactions occurring in your brain when you wield significant power are simply too powerful to overlook.

The reason there is absence of these things, is because there is nothing to be bribed. There is nothing to be lobbied. Nothing to be bailed out. There is virtually nothing corruptible in this ecosystem as long as the incentive to secure the network surpasses the potential incentive to overthrow it -- that's the entire gamble. If we fail in that gamble, we're fucked. I cannot fathom designing a system more insusceptible to corruption than this.

[stompix]

Have you studied Monero's RandomX algorithm?

It's designed in a specific way that favors CPUs (especially Ryzen ones), so that if someone wanted to design an equivalent ASIC chip, it would be as complex/expensive as a Ryzen processor.

https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020231023114009392Wa6C3QuD0658
Ryzen 7 7800X3D, 12 kh/s, 120 W, $350 you get 1kh/s for 10W and 1 kh/s for $20
X5, 212 kh/S, 1350W, at $3000, you get 1 kh/s for 6W and 1kh/s for $14
And in one scenario you got a ready to mine machine in the other you don't even get a fan....

Care to explain why the "uneducated" Nigerians didn't accept CBDC?
What makes you think that Americans/Europeans are "inferior"? Even though they started famous revolutions in the past?
Give me some compelling arguments.

The same way they haven't embraced credit cards either, it's not a matter of choice it's a matter of using what available and more convenient. Just because a CDBC failed in country that struggles to keep power on it doesn't mean it will fail in others.
Most will not care, CDBC or a credit/debit card, what would be the difference for your average Joe consumer? None!Some of you really need to understand that things you talk on this forum are just gibberish boring thing for the majority of the world who doesn't really care.

The reason there is absence of these things, is because there is nothing to be bribed. There is nothing to be lobbied. Nothing to be bailed out. There is virtually nothing corruptible in this ecosystem as long as the incentive to secure the network surpasses the potential incentive to overthrow it -- that's the entire gamble. If we fail in that gamble, we're fucked. I cannot fathom designing a system more insusceptible to corruption than this.

Still it's all about the money, money is also guarding it but it's also the root of the problem, if Bitcoin would be worth a few thousands nobody would spend billions on attacking it and nobody would spend billions to protect it, there is no difference between Bitcoin and another structure as long as they both follow the rules.

Politicians weren't supposed to take bribes, they weren't supposed to change laws, they were supposed to only change the constitution on a 51% majority or 2/3, guess what, so do miners, they could act lawfully or they could say screw that if they are PAID more.
A politician paid $5000 will fall for a 2million bribe, Mara will sell everything for 1 billion, it's just a matter of percentages.

As for lobby, cough cough...big blo..ikes!

[cryptosize]

Have you studied Monero's RandomX algorithm?

It's designed in a specific way that favors CPUs (especially Ryzen ones), so that if someone wanted to design an equivalent ASIC chip, it would be as complex/expensive as a Ryzen processor.

https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020231023114009392Wa6C3QuD0658
Ryzen 7 7800X3D, 12 kh/s, 120 W, $350 you get 1kh/s for 10W and 1 kh/s for $20
X5, 212 kh/S, 1350W, at $3000, you get 1 kh/s for 6W and 1kh/s for $14
And in one scenario you got a ready to mine machine in the other you don't even get a fan....

1) Sold out (unlike Ryzen CPUs, even 7950X is readily available)
2) This doesn't use ASIC chips (unlike BTC or LTC), it uses RISC-V CPUs. Look it up.

RISC might be more efficient than CISC (x86), but it's still not an ASIC. You won't find a single RandomX ASIC.

You also won't see anyone using RISC-V CPUs for BTC or LTC mining.

[cryptosize]

Care to explain why the "uneducated" Nigerians didn't accept CBDC?
What makes you think that Americans/Europeans are "inferior"? Even though they started famous revolutions in the past?
Give me some compelling arguments.

The same way they haven't embraced credit cards either, it's not a matter of choice it's a matter of using what available and more convenient. Just because a CDBC failed in country that struggles to keep power on it doesn't mean it will fail in others.
Most will not care, CDBC or a credit/debit card, what would be the difference for your average Joe consumer? None!Some of you really need to understand that things you talk on this forum are just gibberish boring thing for the majority of the world who doesn't really care.

The difference is called social credit score and carbon credits.

The average Joe can buy as much red meat/gasoline as he likes with his credit/debit card.

Will he be able to do the same with CBDC?

Do you know anything about WEF's agenda?

[coolcoinz]

IMO people aren't the sheep some posters here think they are. Yes, they chose credit cards over cash, but that's because most of them were certain that the money on their card is real cash converted to ones and zeros. The risk of using a card over cash wasn't really that big for your average joe, but the convenience was greatly increased.

When it comes to CBDCs most people don't care because they don't have to deal with it right now, nobody forces them to use it, there's a chance it will not go live in their lifetimes, they don't know the details because governments sell it to them as a new, more digital fiat money, that can be assigned to a face ID. This doesn't sound bad if that's all you know.
Joe thinks about it and comes to a conclusion that if he loses his wallet abroad, he'll still be able to buy a ticket home by simply getting scanned at the airport. Pretty convenient if you ask me.
If they start blocking people for their social media activity, fining them for what they write online, there's going to be riots, unless they choose to deal with it like China  did and roll out the tanks.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Joe thinks about it and comes to a conclusion that if he loses his wallet abroad, he'll still be able to buy a ticket home by simply getting scanned at the airport. Pretty convenient if you ask me.

It has always been about convenience. Cash is more difficult to carry around, split in multiple amounts, there's no history of transactions recorded if you need it, easier to lose and get stolen, change discomforts etc. It appears to be the case that these inconveniences justify the spending of billions of dollars and euros in transaction fees annually.

If they start blocking people for their social media activity, fining them for what they write online, there's going to be riots, unless they choose to deal with it like China  did and roll out the tanks.

The West is not China. There may be similar treatment as to Chinese, but we fundamentally differ in culture.

CBDC is without doubt coming to Europe, though. This is not a conspiracy theory. A conspiracy theory is that it'll be used to pause the economic activity of people based on their social media, or political preferences, which again might be attempted to happen, but I struggle to imagine the Chinese model enforced to Europeans.

[cryptosize]

IMO people aren't the sheep some posters here think they are. Yes, they chose credit cards over cash, but that's because most of them were certain that the money on their card is real cash converted to ones and zeros. The risk of using a card over cash wasn't really that big for your average joe, but the convenience was greatly increased.

When it comes to CBDCs most people don't care because they don't have to deal with it right now, nobody forces them to use it, there's a chance it will not go live in their lifetimes, they don't know the details because governments sell it to them as a new, more digital fiat money, that can be assigned to a face ID. This doesn't sound bad if that's all you know.
Joe thinks about it and comes to a conclusion that if he loses his wallet abroad, he'll still be able to buy a ticket home by simply getting scanned at the airport. Pretty convenient if you ask me.
If they start blocking people for their social media activity, fining them for what they write online, there's going to be riots, unless they choose to deal with it like China  did and roll out the tanks.

I have no idea why people think carbon credits (which will restrict your red meat/gasoline consumption etc.) is a "conspiracy theory":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djpRUafjx7c

Yet again, most people don't even know what WEF is... or perhaps they think it's some "innocent" global forum.

And no, this won't be optional, it will be mandatory. Why? Because most people buy the "human-made" climate change BS. They've dug their own (Net Zero) grave.

Trust me, I would be very happy if I were Klaus Schwab or Bill Gates and you believed my pseudo-religious BS (repent your climate sins ), but I'm not!

I'm just a regular middle class person. Bill Gates will keep flying his private jet and eating juicy steaks, while we will be forced to eat ze bugs.

The more people think this is a conspiracy theory, the more happy papa Klaus and uncle Gates become. Because if the majority of people truly believed it and didn't dismiss it as a "conspiracy theory", they would revolt against their sinister techno-communism plans.

[Poker Player]

I'm sorry, but you're the one who has garbage counterarguments here. You insult my intelligence when you insinuate that people will be happy to accept CBDC (along with its consequences).

The bonobo intelligence you have, welcome to my ignore list you retard.

IMO people aren't the sheep some posters here think they are. Yes, they chose credit cards over cash, but that's because most of them were certain that the money on their card is real cash converted to ones and zeros. The risk of using a card over cash wasn't really that big for your average joe, but the convenience was greatly increased.

Another one who doesn't get something basic. The money shown as balance on the (debit) cards is not real money, they are accounting entries based on a ponzi scheme, and in the case of credit cards it is even worse, because they are accounting entries passed on as money that are created as debt with every payment you make. But if you don't understand this very basic thing don't expect me to waste much time arguing with you, eh?

 

[philipma1957]

But if a miner doesn't include it in his blocks, what's the point?

The point is that some other miner can do it, and take their profit. That's where censorship resistance originates from. A miner dislikes a transaction? Another will mine it. A mining pool operator dislikes a transaction? Another will mine it. All big mining pools' operators dislike a transaction? Then maybe miners have to migrate elsewhere, where they get to decide these crucial policies. If they don't, then the entire game theory starts falling apart, and that is nobody's benefit but the governments'.

Could become a good thing may mean more pools on the 1-5% size and less pools over 10% size.

[cryptosize]

I'm sorry, but you're the one who has garbage counterarguments here. You insult my intelligence when you insinuate that people will be happy to accept CBDC (along with its consequences).

The bonobo intelligence you have, welcome to my ignore list you retard.

IMO people aren't the sheep some posters here think they are. Yes, they chose credit cards over cash, but that's because most of them were certain that the money on their card is real cash converted to ones and zeros. The risk of using a card over cash wasn't really that big for your average joe, but the convenience was greatly increased.

Another one who doesn't get something basic. The money shown as balance on the (debit) cards is not real money, they are accounting entries based on a ponzi scheme, and in the case of credit cards it is even worse, because they are accounting entries passed on as money that are created as debt with every payment you make. But if you don't understand this very basic thing don't expect me to waste much time arguing with you, eh?

You are the one who has bonobo intelligence here, because you don't understand that even physical cash is not real money (backed by gold), it's debt issued by the Central Bank. That's how fiat money works.

Oh well, some Bitcoiners are gullible retards... I'll have to settle with that!

Good riddance

[stompix]

1) Sold out (unlike Ryzen CPUs, even 7950X is readily available)
2) This doesn't use ASIC chips (unlike BTC or LTC), it uses RISC-V CPUs. Look it up.

RISC might be more efficient than CISC (x86), but it's still not an ASIC. You won't find a single RandomX ASIC.

You also won't see anyone using RISC-V CPUs for BTC or LTC mining.

You're burying yourself in details overlooking the economical aspect.
There is a machine that mines randomx cheaper and with less power than a CPU excluding the later one additional demand for components and electricity cost, that's what matters.

You're ignoring the randomx daily reward that makes little sense in spending too much on gear, $73k last day, or 0.23% that of BTC. Do you see anyone pouring money in stuff that has than 0.1% of market share?
You're ignoring the security aspect, that thing does 212kh/s Monero hashrate is 2.5 gh/s, how much is that in $? 6 million! Six million in gear to reach half of the hashrate! The prefect chain to secure billions, right?

IMO people aren't the sheep some posters here think they are. Yes, they chose credit cards over cash, but that's because most of them were certain that the money on their card is real cash converted to ones and zeros. The risk of using a card over cash wasn't really that big for your average joe, but the convenience was greatly increased.

Sweden would love to have a word with you!