Mixers to be banned

[BitcoinsGreat]

Theymos, I understand this decision had to be taken to save the forum from alot of accusations in aiding fraudulent activity in the future but what next are we going to ban? Will crypto non KYC casinos be next as they too can be used for mixing. The government are winning and there's nothing we can do about it. It's sad that one of the most rewarding service on the forum that pays their participants a decent amount of money is going away. I guess we'll return to the casinos talking over the forum. Mixers were associated with Bitcoin and it was nice seeing them around as it remembered us of privacy. I didn't use a mixer until I say an advert of one on the forum and currently promoting one because of their usefulness. It's just sad that we're killing privacy everyday.

Whatever you said is right but think for a moment that you are Theymos and you are the owner of the forum. Try to put yourself in the shoes of theymos and then rethink.

Why would you risk yourself for advertising something which may cause trouble in the future? Yeah, from the forum's users point of view, this may not be a popular decision, but from the forum admins, they have the right to save themselves and their forum first.

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[Bureau]

Well, it was coming and it happened after the Sinbad issue. I know this ban will affect a good amount of members associated with signature campaign but it is better to be safe than suffer. A practical and hard decision taking by Theymos at the right time. It is still not illegal but the possibility of declaring it illegal is becoming certain day by day.

Mixers are a source of getting complete privacy on Bitcoin network but with time they have become a way to encourage criminal activities. The forum needs to be protected first and the decision taken today proves it. Nothing is above the forum and today we might lose a good amount of revenue but in time we will gain more.

[JollyGood]

It is an interesting question and many of us are curious about it too. I know only theymos can answer but I think it would most probably have been a pre-emptive move by him in order to disassociate from mixers because negative publicity is not going to help with the longevity of the forum.

I'm curious myself if there were any formal requests or warnings received, regardless, it is the safest move for the forum and its members, so not a bad decision. IIWII.

~At most, I'd guess the forum could get some formal legal request to ban or remove certain things from the site and/or maybe banning any participants that continue to advertise for a particular service which has been deemed illegal by the country the forum is hosted at, but I wouldn't see the forum itself in any big risk, as theymos would probably comply if it is related to advertising. That said, I'm not a lawyer.~

[stompix]

It sounds weird now but maybe in future, it will happen and with KYC, mixers will be allowed by laws.

I have one great idea for a product, security cameras that don't film people's faces!  
Why would you use a mixing service that requires KYC when you could simply use an exchange?

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

I have a feeling it's going to be easier to discuss about making a bomb than how to mix some coins.
And speaking of that, just to know it in advance, since you banned mixers because of the US government stance on them and designating them as tools to help terrorists organizations, is the Politics and Society board going to be next to be censored?

Theymos, I understand this decision had to be taken to save the forum from alot of accusations in aiding fraudulent activity in the future but what next are we going to ban?  

Signatures!

[Dump3er]

So, to sum up. If a service:

- is taking property and returning roughly the same property,
- advertises itself as providing privacy,
- requires user to forfeit custody of coins,
- and does not collect KYC

is illegal in this forum.

Really sad turn of events for the Bitcoin forum.

Examples of things that are not banned mixers include exchangers (unless they have a mixing function), CoinJoin-supporting non-custodial wallets, and Monero.

If a non-KYC exchanger converts your BTC to XMR, is that considered legal or illegal in-forum? I'm confused.

I ask myself that question, too. What about services like changelly.com? You could essentially create privacy with going the BTC->XMR way. But maybe the plan is to ban XMR from being traded on any licensed exchange, which would make it more difficult for users seeking privacy to turn their XMR into cash in a simple way.

I have a feeling it's going to be easier to discuss about making a bomb than how to mix some coins.
And speaking of that, just to know it in advance, since you banned mixers because of the US government stance on them and designating them as tools to help terrorists organizations, is the Politics and Society board going to be next to be censored?

lol! It's not really funny because stompix is sadly right.

[Learn Bitcoin]

That's sad.

But it seems a massive FUD is around us. Sinbad claims they are not seized. This is what they posted in their telegram.

Hello
I will post the official announcement about the latest news soon
The service is not seized and will be restored after maintenance is finished

I have a reason to believe this story. No law enforcement has time to design announcement while maintaining the company colors. For example, this is the banner Sinbad used for their November Bitcoin price prediction contest;

And this is what was posted by someone else;

But the reason to believe the seizure is this; https://www.fiod.nl/fiod-takes-large-crypto-currency-mixer-off-the-air/

[Dunamisx]

Bitcointalk.org aims to allow about as much freedom as is reasonably possible. But this is not a darknet forum, and with mixers looking "grayer and grayer"

For clarity, are mixers "looking" grayer or is the government placing the spotlight on them highlighting the illegal transactions that went through them and then amplifying that using the media?

It will help to know if the stand of the forum is that mixers are injurious to the public like darknet and should not be promoted or that due to the intervention of authorities the forum cannot legally allow mixers to be promoted here.

Also if another privacy enhancing service gets the same spotlight is there a chance that will be blacklisted here too?

- Jay -

Before now, i know only that forum staffs were no allowed to participate in any mixer promotion, now it has escalated to all members of the forum being affected, the question is that, are mixers intended for the same purpose the government see them to be or they are only using this to threat the bitcoin network and user's privacy, because even without the use of mixers, fraudulent activities were still ongoing both in cryptocurrency and fiat, why the bitcoin being pronounce, what about the altcoins we often called shitcoins, aren't they worst than just an ordinary service that protect human financial privacy.

[mv1986]

~

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1933#:~:text=Sinbad%20is%20believed%20by%20some,from%20customers%20of%20Atomic%20Wallet.

I think this is quite insightful. It seems it has not yet been seized, but been put on a list for sanctions and everyone interacting with the sanctioned entity is facing massive trouble! Read the whole part about Sinbad.

[Samrean]

That's sad.

But it seems a massive FUD is around us. Sinbad claims they are not seized. This is what they posted in their telegram.

Hello
I will post the official announcement about the latest news soon
The service is not seized and will be restored after maintenance is finished

I have a reason to believe this story. No law enforcement has time to design announcement while maintaining the company colors. For example, this is the banner Sinbad used for their November Bitcoin price prediction contest;

And this is what was posted by someone else;

But the reason to believe the seizure is this; https://www.fiod.nl/fiod-takes-large-crypto-currency-mixer-off-the-air/

Law enforcement agencies start hiring graphics designers too  

[hugeblack]

I can suggest a compromise. Unless you receive a legal request, as of January 1, 2024:

1) All mixing services, ads, and links will be blocked and everything will be filtered.
2) Mixer links in signatures are allowed, but the announcement and deal agreement must be outside the forum (since links in signatures are an individual responsibility)
3) If you receive any official request to ban a mixing service or it becomes illegal, mixers will be banned from signatures.
4) If blenders become illegal in the United States, mixers ads in signatures will be banned.

This way, you will avoid any illegal liability on the forum and people will seriously start to stop advertising mixing services.

[digaran]

is the Politics and Society board going to be next to be censored?

That's been handled by a DT weasel already. 😂 you just haven't paid enough attention.

Bitcoin is the best tool to fight for financial freedom, and CEX is just a legal money washing machine, they are too stupid to figure it out.
When theymos realized people are plotting to overthrow him, he decided to take action and buy the favors of govs.😉

[Woodie]

it's a bitter pill 💊 to swallow and if the existence of the forum depends on this decision I guess we have been left with no choice but to take it .

That's sad.

But it seems a massive FUD is around us. Sinbad claims they are not seized. This is what they posted in their telegram.

Hello
I will post the official announcement about the latest news soon
The service is not seized and will be restored after maintenance is finished

I have a reason to believe this story. No law enforcement has time to design announcement while maintaining the company colors. For example, this is the banner Sinbad used for their November Bitcoin price prediction contest;

Good eye...
However history shows that whenever there is a seizure communication with the world/forum usually is halted almost immediately but with Sindad it was different..

TBH, It would be great to hear what is really going on from the horse's mouth considering they are still active and they wanted to give an update on this which might change the course of what's happening...

-snip-
4) If blenders become illegal in the United States, mixers ads in signatures will be banned.

This way, you will avoid any illegal liability on the forum and people will seriously start to stop advertising mixing services.

Nice work around on this  

The forum being a multinational platform, should everyone go with what works with the US or servers/domain are likely US registered hence this decision?

[Erumo]

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

What will be the punishment if there will be "use mixer" in the post where recipe is discussed? Forum algorithm will get triggered and post deleted?

Now serious question, using word a blender or any other veiled version of mixer will be punished?

[DaveF]

Side note, there is also a financial aspect that theymos has to consider.
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-and-justice-department-file-complaint-alleging-environmental-violations-ebay

Ebay may win, they may loose but the cost of fighting it is going to be crazy.
If they come here and attack the forum financially for advertising mixers they may win, they may loose but there will be a cost.

As I posted a couple of minutes ago, theymos's house his rules.

-Dave

[criptoevangelista]

I agree with him about banning mixers, it really is something super complicated... To manage in the best possible way an environment where there can be infinite variable variations, it is necessary to make decisions, decisions to always maintain coexistence between the most diverse people and ideologies.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I have a feeling it's going to be easier to discuss about making a bomb than how to mix some coins.

- Hey, how can I gain privacy in Bitcoin?
- Use mixers!
- Cool, which one?
- WTF, you want to get banned sir?

When theymos realized people are plotting to overthrow him, he decided to take action and buy the favors of govs.😉

I'm pretty sure theymos understands the situation. He was probably contacted by a fed, or better to say, blackmailed.

Would you rather have the entire forum shutdown?

[dzungmobile]

First Chipmixer then the other one (forgot the name) and now Sinbad is going down. I knew they weren't let that shit go. It is official now, you cannot stay anonymous on the internet or anywhere else.

Whirlwind, you mean.

Whirlwind was down but it was not seized. It is more like a scam exit with photographed seizure on their website.

Sadly, this will decrease the forum traffic except there are more other projects want to launch signature campaign.

It will not affect the forum too much. Before the Chipmixer seizure, there are some short-lasting mixer campaigns but no one can last like 6 months or longer. Chipmixer is the only campaign that lasts many years and after that seizure, we had many mixer campaigns and they have been lasting longer than usual.

So if they are all gone, I think the forum will be back to nearly normal status like days with ChipMixer, not much different.

Would you rather have the entire forum shutdown?

The forum is bigger than all mixers and the existence of forum is important than appearances of mixers in bitcointalk.

[digaran]

I'm pretty sure theymos understands the situation. He was probably contacted by a fed, or better to say, blackmailed.

Would you rather have the entire forum shutdown?

Well, when they kick the hornets nest, you either gotta run for the hills or chicken out. 😂

[albert0bsd]

- Hey, how can I gain privacy in Bitcoin?
- Use mixers!
- Cool, which one?
- WTF, you want to get banned sir?

What about?
-To gain privacy of your UTXOs use the Mix function SomeRandom wallet (Non-custodial wallet)?

what if you just point to those functions in our recomendations? That worth a ban?

[Gladitorcomeback]

Isn't Bitcointalk decentralized forum where everyone has freedom to talk on any subject even against any government?

If tomorrow Gov declare Bitcoin btc as a money laundering source then we will see Bitcoin word in blacklist and also we will change domain??

apologize  for over talked but I learned here that This forum is best place for embracing freedom.