Mixers to be banned

[alani123]

You DO NOT NEED a trusted third party to make your Bitcoin private.  You can coinjoin non custodially without ever giving up any data.

If there's a third party reviewing all transactions and filtering them in coordination with the coinjoin provider, does that still allow transactions to be private? Asking for a friend.

Oh and how about if this party's filtering is in compliance with state authorities demands? Does that mean CoinJoin is actually NOT a replacement to mixers? Also asking for a friend.

[1714314015]

1714314015

[1714314015]

1714314015

[1714314015]

1714314015

[1714314015]

1714314015

[1714314015]

1714314015

[savetheFORUM]

In short, we can talk about its existence, we cannot mention names. Or can names be said without there being a direct recommendation?
For example: "Yesterday mixxptoabcd was closed by the US authorities, follow the news..."

Yes, that's what I understood from this:

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

Theymos, are we able to mention mixer companies? Can I say: Bitmixer was the first bitcoin mixer in history, chipmixer was the most profitable company, Guys, does anyone remember the time when mixers were legal?
Will we be able to mention company names without suggesting them to other people?

Please go here:

Of those three examples, the first and second would be OK because they don't direct people to a specific mixer.

[Igebotz]

Government 1:0 Bitcoin community

theymos what next? Non-KYC casinos and DEX Exchanges getting the hammer soon? Because the government do not have control over them?

If we start giving in to every government request and start opposing Decentralisation and privacy on a Bitcoin forum, everything Satoshi established and ideology would be for naught.

[dkbit98]

3. The service does not collect KYC-type info from all users.

So what's next?
Are you going to ask all members to perform KYC on bitcointalk?  
There are plenty of legit websites you can use without kyc, virtual cards, vpn services, casinos, etc.

I have a feeling it's going to be easier to discuss about making a bomb than how to mix some coins.

I can understand decision to not allow mixers to advertise in forum, but not allowing any members to speak about them, and banning them... this that I really don't understand.
With this loos rules I think we are going to see much more bans and ban appeals for stupid things, especially if AI or bots are doing this ''job''.
I would not like to be in skin of moderators from 2024, unless they really like to do this.

The one thing I'm not quite sure I understand is the KYC part. There are several exchanges that still do not require KYC, even if they aren't allowed to service U.S.-based customers.

Same here.
It's so silly that I can't believe theymos wrote this, unless he was 5$ wrenched by ''someone''.

[Hamza2424]

Hmm, Whatever Theymos did according to the circumstances is not wrong still there exists a but.

I also see things heading the way of KYC-mixes as the government is okay with privacy that's under their supervision.

Under their supervision? what kind of favor to the users where they are getting the so-called privacy, I won't get involved in any illegal activity with my funds, but I want my funds to be secure and private and they want to provide us the services directly being controlled and monitored by them, Why? What's the purpose? Seems like the next target can be the self-Custodial wallet under their supervision.

[alani123]

Government 1:0 Bitcoin community

theymos what next? Non-KYC casinos and DEX Exchanges getting the hammer soon? Because the government do not have control over them?

If we start giving in to every government request and start opposing Decentralisation and privacy on a Bitcoin forum, everything Satoshi established and ideology would be for naught.

Sadly or not, Theymos is non an anonymous entity.
He's known running this forum with a real identity attached to his name. He can't run this website like a rogue, completely disregarding government instructions and laws.

Luckily the U.S. jurisdiction that he is in is pretty permissive about freedom of speech laws, but financial transactions are heavily sanctioned by the current governance system that the U.S. has.
This is a step to protect the forum as a whole. Mixers were advertised on here for long enough but the negative attention becomes too much of a risk at a certain point.

[dkbit98]

I am currently not advertising or managing any advertising for mixers so I welcome this change! Well done to all involved.

I understand why you say that, because it reminds you a bit on WW incident   but did you read the rules carefully in OP with definition of mixers?
You will be surprised what services can be interpreted as mixers, and I don't think even moderators will know what to do next year with updated forum rules.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I am currently not advertising or managing any advertising for mixers so I welcome this change! Well done to all involved.

To be honest with you, and with all due respect, I don't know why you are just happy because you don't advertise any mixers now. The only things left to advertise are the exchanges that don't advertise much on the forum and the casinos, which have been operating in a kind of legal limbo for many years now and are going to be next in line, even if it takes a while.

Having said that, I also think theymos' decision is reasonable in order to prevent greater evils.

[BitDiscussion]

If governments are too concerned about our privacy, I wonder how no-log VPN services are existing for decades. Probably, they are not practically against what they claim actually.

[dkbit98]

WW was never seized, so I'm not worried. I also don't see theymos as some power hungry dictator for the ~8 years I've been here so if you are afraid of what might happen next - don't be.

I am not afraid at all, but new rules sucks big time, you can't say they are good in any way Hhampuz.
We could speak about almost anything so far in forum, now I have be careful about every word and use some censorship filter whenever I write in forum.
You can check our local board and you will see that I actually expected big change from 2024, and by 2030 it's going to be even worse.
You will own nothing and be ''happy''. 

[Kruw]

If there's a third party reviewing all transactions and filtering them in coordination with the coinjoin provider, does that still allow transactions to be private? Asking for a friend.

Oh and how about if this party's filtering is in compliance with state authorities demands? Does that mean CoinJoin is actually NOT a replacement to mixers? Also asking for a friend.

Yes, the coinjoin coordinator code is all open source, so there is never any reason to forfeit your privacy to a "mixing site".

[Latviand]

Strategic mistake. But we are not law enforcement to say having them here could be better to keep an eye on them all in one place instead of having them go elsewhere scattered.

Maybe @theymos just wants what's best for the forum in the long run, I do agree that still allowing mixers so authorities can monitor them in one place which will make their job easier is definitely strategic but for me, that can only work so long because if authorities are lurking in this forum, there's bound to be some consequences to that with having the forum being scrutinized and possibly be investigated for other nonsensical stuff as one of the possibility that I can think of, and shouldn't this forum be free of those potential threats to our freedom to express our opinions right?

Government 1:0 Bitcoin community

theymos what next? Non-KYC casinos and DEX Exchanges getting the hammer soon? Because the government do not have control over them?

If we start giving in to every government request and start opposing Decentralisation and privacy on a Bitcoin forum, everything Satoshi established and ideology would be for naught.

It's a sad thing but I guess this is the best way to move forward for now, I hope that the day that they'll come after those services that you've mentioned will never arrive, that's probably an awful day for everyone here in the forum. Also, even if we want to fight for our right to be independent with our respective governments, there's not a lot of people that's going to back up our plight.

[Murat]

It was a threat to the forum and its users. As always theymos did well. It might be hurting for some users but in long term it's beneficial for everyone.

[famososMuertos]

Today marks Black Friday for privacy.

I hope to return to edit this post, for the right to be able to decide how to manage my privacy, without this meaning skipping the legal bases, but it is sad that for the "disorder" of a few, a right of many is sacrificed.

[Rruchi man]

Government 1:0 Bitcoin community

Not a good feeling to be on the loosing side currently, but I think it is better to loose this battle and win the war. It would not have been an easy decision to be taken by Theymos, but it is better we let this go than this forum that has been a great community hub.

Seeing how we have bulged under this pressure from the government, I am forced to now wonder if bitcoins can really win the government in this wr for privacy?

[dkbit98]

How often do you genuinely discuss mixers with direct links and names being named? I'm actually curious. Without it being related to Signature Campaigns, it's surely not that widely discussed since a majority of "normal" users on bitcointalk barely know about self custody.

Do a search in ninjastic and you will see general statistics for that.
Again, I will repeat this, according to new rules any service without kyc verification can be considered as a mixer, so better think about that.
Anything that increases Privacy can also be considered as a mixer, now that can easily be considered when using coinjoin, joinmarket, maybe even Lightning Network in some cases or exchnages that supports it.
In general we should not mention anything about privacy anymore, that is how it looks to me.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I believe this is a wise decision, as governments could shut down the forum because of such services.

That would be a fucking travesty if the US government did that (and I think the forum is hosted in the US, so they'd be the ones shutting it down), and I wouldn't put it past them to at least make threats to do so if all mentions of mixers weren't scrubbed per their request.  They're being bullies with regard to crypto in general and mixers in particular lately, and to your point it is quite disheartening to see a change like this being made that strays so far from the spirit of what bitcoin stands for....but try to fight the government, and you're basically guaranteed to go bankrupt or lose anyway.

On the other hand, at least we've got some decision being made instead of a bunch of wild speculation and fear about what might happen with mixers and our beloved forum.

theymos what next? Non-KYC casinos and DEX Exchanges getting the hammer soon? Because the government do not have control over them?

Part of me wants to say "Fuck yeah, stick it to the man!", but the world-weary, beaten-down part of me knows that this forum could easily be shut down or hammered into the ground by government agencies much more powerful than the administrator of a website, especially when that government is putting on a show about crypto and money laundering and all sorts of other illegal activities that bitcoin has been associated with since its inception (like the USD, but what government is going to understand that argument?).

[DooMAD]

It's unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world.  These services will still exist and I'm sure most of the people who want to use such services will still be able to find them.  The reasons provided make sense in terms of protecting the forum.  "Deplatforming" is a serious concern in this current climate.

Also, things built at protocol level are more resilient to shutdown, so hopefully we'll start to see improvements in privacy built into Bitcoin soon.  It's also worth noting that such improvements don't necessarily need to be built into the base protocol.  Interoperable layers can be used for this purpose.  I'm confident this community will always be at least one step ahead in this regard.

XMR's days are also numbered imo

I'm not convinced.  Where's the central point of failure?  I don't own any yet, but I'm seriously reconsidering if this is how the world is going to be.

I hope to return to edit this post, for the right to be able to decide how to manage my privacy, without this meaning skipping the legal bases, but it is sad that for the "disorder" of a few, a right of many is sacrificed.

You absolutely still have the right to decide how to manage your own privacy.  You're just losing the ability to use this forum to tell others specifically which service you used to do it.  

Mixers aren't going away, we're just sweeping them under the rug.

[LoyceV]

Government 1:0 Bitcoin community

You're quite a pessimist We have "magic internet money", and can send funds without anyone's permission to anyone we want. I wouldn't say the Bitcoin community has score "0" at the moment. It's much higher.

I can understand decision to not allow mixers to advertise in forum, but not allowing any members to speak about them, and banning them... this that I really don't understand.

Isn't that similar to being allowed to discuss the effects of drugs, but not where to buy them?

[Lucius]

~snip~
So, just to clear things out. In a month from now, anyone wearing a mixer signature is officially a terrorist!  

In the eyes of those for whom Bitcoin is a thorn in the side, anyone who promotes or uses a mixer today is in some way a terrorist, and after January 1, 2024, they will find another reason to call us terrorists. When I see that the admin mentions the possible shutdown of the forum, the banning of Bitcoin in the US and the possible criminal prosecution of all those who would promote mixers in their signature, then it is more than clear why this is happening.

I am currently not advertising or managing any advertising for mixers so I welcome this change! Well done to all involved.

Who knows, maybe promoting gambling that uses Bitcoin deposits is next in line to be banned? As things turned out, maybe we will have discussions in codes, so we will have to come up with code words for mixers, Bitcoin, transactions, mining...