Mixers to be banned

[NotATether]

I'm curious myself if there were any formal requests or warnings received

We've received no warnings or requests to change policy from law enforcement regarding mixers.

That's reassuring to know. Thank you.

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[Mpamaegbu]

If we start giving in to every government request and start opposing Decentralisation and privacy on a Bitcoin forum, everything Satoshi established and ideology would be for naught.

That's the worrisome part of it for me, beyond closing all discussions, links and businesses associated with mixers here. What next? Is the forum going to start freezing up each time the government sneezes? Are we going to jettison the decentralisation and anonymity that Bitcoin enlists just to yield to the aspirations of politicians? Trust me, more grounds will be asked for as compromise (directly or indirectly) in the nearest future here if this is achieved now.

BTW, why aren't these authorities harassing banks for money laundering too if their claim of seizing mixers is to prevent money laundering? I know what theymos is trying to do here is taking a preventive measure to save the forum but I also know that this isn't likely going to be the last of government wanting more grounds to be shifted.

This is, indeed, sad.

[mv1986]

There is a high chance that account FIODNederland is legit because: The account was created 2.5 hours before fiod.nl published this article, and posted about it 6 minutes after publication. [Quote from archived post, posted by LoyceV]

and theymos cashed their copper membership fee 

Just came across this post and now I wonder who would put up that post. I mean the timing that Synchronice mentioned is very interesting, the account being set up as a Copper Member is very interesting, and the likelihood that countless of accounts here work on behalf government agencies is quite high, isn't it?

[Igebotz]

Part of me wants to say "Fuck yeah, stick it to the man!", but the world-weary, beaten-down part of me knows that this forum could easily be shut down or hammered into the ground by government agencies much more powerful than the administrator of a website, especially when that government is putting on a show about crypto and money laundering and all sorts of other illegal activities that bitcoin has been associated with since its inception (like the USD, but what government is going to understand that argument?).

Hosting the forum on a US jurisdiction was a wrong move after all. Move the danm thing to NK where the government don't give a fuck!!

Government 1:0 Bitcoin community

You're quite a pessimist We have "magic internet money", and can send funds without anyone's permission to anyone we want. I wouldn't say the Bitcoin community has score "0" at the moment. It's much higher.

If we start counting H2H scores, we'll see that the government has never lost to the Bitcoin community.

Making Satoshi a ghost, KYC, DEX, developing a Blockchain analysis to mirror all Blockchain transactions, and now cutting off the only method of privacy.

What wins has the Bitcoin community had over the government?

The game isn't over yet. The first goal by the government does not mean that they have won the match. We have plenty of time to come back and beat the Government

The biggest Bitcoin forum has already shot us in the head what's left?

[NotATether]

What wins has the Bitcoin community had over the government?

Well for starters, I think that the Bitcoin network Satoshi bootstrapped is massive F You to the government(s).

[mindrust]

This is how a government attack looks like and all that time we thought that bitcoin would survive any gov attacks bla bla bla well... they didn't even put any effort. Imagine what would happen when they ban anything crypto related. Mega fireworks

[mv1986]

The biggest Bitcoin forum has already shot us in the head what's left?

We can't even downgrade this forum to a platform for cooking recipes as now everybody here will be under suspicion for using code language:

[suchmoon]

It's a sad day when outright scams (e.g. most of the shitcoining stuff or HYIPs), uber-sketchy (e.g. centralized no-name exchanges), or possibly illegal (e.g. gambling) services can still be advertised but services with actual utility can't, because they could be "gray". Yes, I understand it's more complicated than that.

Well, it is what it is. What strikes me as very odd is the severity of the ban. It sounds like we can't mention any mixer names even in casual/news/discussion context. Like if next year I wanted to say that some xyzmixer is sketchy AF and should be avoided, looks like I can be banned under the new rules.

Edit: theymos posted a revision of the new rules that allows mentioning a mixer (without a url) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5476162.msg63255213#msg63255213

[acroman08]

Guys, I had a small confusion. Can anyone give some clarity to it.

As theymos stated mixers and mixing related things will be banned after December. And if anyone try to advertise or talk about it might also be banned (as far as I understood).

So suppose if I say specifically, "I was part of mixtum signature campaign, but after the ban of sinbad I had to move on to different campaign".

Will it get me banned? (Since I indirectly, mentioned a mixer service)

from what I see it's fine, I mean you did not direct people to a mixer, you just mentioned that you used to advertise one and left the campaign when advertising mixers became illegal in the forum. check the quoted part of theymos's post for more clarification.

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

[criptoevangelista]

It's a sad day when outright scams (e.g. most of the shitcoining stuff or HYIPs), uber-sketchy (e.g. centralized no-name exchanges), or possibly illegal (e.g. gambling) services can still be advertised but services with actual utility can't, because they could be "gray". Yes, I understand it's more complicated than that.

Well, it is what it is. What strikes me as very odd is the severity of the ban. It sounds like we can't mention any mixer names even in casual/news/discussion context. Like if next year I wanted to say that some xyzmixer is sketchy AF and should be avoided, looks like I can be banned under the new rules.

It's really quite complicated, but maybe one day things will calm down and the new rules will be repealed. I believe that he considered all possible scenarios in this decision, it was really a very difficult decision.

[KTChampions]

It’s so good that on a crypto forum where you can praise war, dictators, the murder of civilians, now you won’t be able to pronounce the name of services that perform one of the functions of cryptocurrencies.

Now I feel protected, thank you.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

It sounds like we can't mention any mixer names even in casual/news/discussion context. Like if next year I wanted to say that some xyzmixer is sketchy AF and should be avoided, looks like I can be banned under the new rules.

Yeah, it won't be long before it's going to be like present day Youtube around here, where posts are going to be like "Remember that m***r debacle?  Wasn't that insane??".  Unfortunately, I'm nearly certain even the big lobbyists for crypto--whoever they are--aren't going to be standing up for mixers, and I do understand Theymos's problem and why he took the action that he did. 

I'm not slamming him or the forum, just being a little salty that those all-powerful regulators have twisted their jackboot on the neck of the crypto space just a wee bit more.  Even if they didn't make the decision for Theymos directly, they definitely did it indirectly.

[NotATether]

Guys, I had a small confusion. Can anyone give some clarity to it.

As theymos stated mixers and mixing related things will be banned after December. And if anyone try to advertise or talk about it might also be banned (as far as I understood).

So suppose if I say specifically, "I was part of mixtum signature campaign, but after the ban of sinbad I had to move on to different campaign".

Will it get me banned? (Since I indirectly, mentioned a mixer service)

Jesus Christ, can someone ping @mprep to get the unofficial rules topic updated so we can get this sorted out?

The last thing we need is scores of people getting banned for typing the name of a mixer. Hell, even if a news article name-checks a mixer and you quote it, the rules are currently too ambiguous and easy to misinterpret for anyone to be able to follow them properly.

[apogio]

What I really don't get is why the problem is with mixers only. If so, this is literally the worst decision I have ever seen...

If you want to make sure the ads are of better quality in general, then you should ban every bullshit that is advertised, no matter what the advertised product is.

Banning only mixing services is absurd.

[Bitcoin SV]

So that is your decentralized forum?  

[Charles-Tim]

Hosting the forum on a US jurisdiction was a wrong move after all. Move the danm thing to NK where the government don't give a fuck!!

I do not think this is a wise idea, because later, theymos and those that are behind this forum will be the government target as they will be seen as the ones promoting mixers.

If you want to make sure the ads are of better quality in general, then you should ban every bullshit that is advertised, no matter what the advertised product is.

Never mind I asked this. Did you read the OP?

So that is your decentralized forum?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

No one says this forum is decentralized. It is actually centralized and we all know that.

[LTU_btc]

These news doesn't comes as big surprise, it looked like matter of time when this decision will be made. But it's still sad day in Bitcointalk history. Yeah, if I would be in place of theymos, probably I would do same. I don't even use mixers, but I concerned about this decision. You can say it's just mixers, but now we open precedent for further decisions. What if governments will start taking actions against decentralised exchanges, non-KYC casinos or something else? Will they get banned on Bitcointalk too? I hope that Bitcointalk won't turn into place like some social media when people constantly getting message that ''your post goes against community standards''...
And at the same time you can promote all kind of scams, illegal stuff and etc without any consequences.

[Bitcoin SV]

So that is your decentralized forum?

No one says this forum is decentralized. It is actually centralized and we all know that.

MUAHAHAHAHAHA. "No one says this forum is decentralized"  

It is actually centralized and we all know that.

When someone is kicked out of the DT - then the forum is decentralized  
When the forum is pressured from above by authorities - then the forum immediately becomes centralized  



Soon all your gamblings and casinos will be closed. All exchange transactions between users will be prohibited

[mikeywith]

Well, it is what it is. What strikes me as very odd is the severity of the ban. It sounds like we can't mention any mixer names even in casual/news/discussion context. Like if next year I wanted to say that some xyzmixer is sketchy AF and should be avoided, looks like I can be banned under the new rules.

I doubt it will be this much; warning about using x mixer isn't exactly the same as "pointing someone" to use it.

But I agree, this feels like it has gone too far, but at the same time, I understand that theymos wants the forum to be legally protected, and how is he going to show compliance without imposing such rules? This way he could just tell law enforcement, "See, I have done everything I can to ban the illegal services," anything short of that could be viewed by law enforcement as "lack of compliance," an excuse to attack the forum.

I think that the crypto community is near the start of a multi-year squeezing campaign against mixers

Well, I think we are already in such a campaign against everything "freedom": banning mixers on this forum, large pools imposing KYC, and some of them started practicing transaction censorship.

I can't blame theymos just as much as I can't blame some of those pools and exchanges who have no option but to comply with the governments. I think we as a community failed big time.

14 years have passed, and we have not built anything truly decentralized

- No decentralized forum/community platform
- No truly decentralized exchange
- No truly decentralized mining pool
- No truly decentralized mixer

Too much power/responsibility is put in the hands of a few, creating terrible single points of failure. It's only a matter of time before they start banning everything that contributes to users' privacy/anonymity on the blockchain. We need to start looking for alternatives to everything we use today, something truly decentralized by ownership.

[Bitcoin SV]

14 years have passed, and we have not built anything truly decentralized

- No decentralized forum/community platform
- No truly decentralized exchange
- No truly decentralized mining pool
- No truly decentralized mixer

Decentralized DT  

These idiots were so proud of their decentralized DT - and now they've disgraced themselves

It turned out that there is nothing decentralized on this forum