Mixers to be banned

[Medusah]

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster mixers, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor Monero seem to be holding their own.

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[mindrust]

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster mixers, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor Monero seem to be holding their own.

When they ban XMR-like coins from every FIAT gate in existence, XMR will go back to where btc was at in 2009.

Irwin Allen Schiff, John McAffee, Al Capone all went against the government and they all ended up in jail. You don't fuck with the government.

[BoXXoB]

Initially I thought this change wasn't so controversial and found myself even agreeing with the decision but I changed my mind after reading some discussion here.

This changes Bitcointalk and how we can view it as a whole. It goes beyond just mixers. An important remark made by people in this thread already is that Bitcointalk does not moderate scams. That goes to say, Bitcointalk is still a place where questionable services can exist and promote themselves.

Are mixers so different because they provide privacy or because they can be used for illegal purposes? In the latter case, there should be a massive crackdown on other illegal activity on the forum. Moreso because not every mixer in itself is a scam as people have already concluded in this thread. Otherwise this decision is very questionable. On the other hand, if mixers are being banned because of pressure from the government against services that provide privacy, it is also a questionable action. In that case Bitcointalk is an indirect adversary of privacy.

Must we start to worry in what other ways pressure may be applied on Bitcointalk and its operators?

[Medusah]

When they ban XMR-like coins from every FIAT gate in existence, XMR will go back to where btc was at in 2009.

When they ban XMR from every CEX, you will notice we have built DEX.

Allen Schiff, John McAffee, Al Capone all went against the government and they all ended up in jail. You don't fuck with the government.

People shouldn't be afraid of their government.  Governments should be afraid of their people.  Even small minorities can bring change. 

[arabspaceship123]

Monero's going to be a casualty in American regulators centralising crypto. If fiat exchanges use blockchain analysis companies like Wasabi hires they'll reject coins which can't be traced to good sources.

XMR's going to be available on decentralised exchanges but it's going to take a strike on price. It won't go back to 2009 bitcoin price because ppl won't stop using XMR.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster mixers, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor Monero seem to be holding their own.

When they ban XMR-like coins from every FIAT gate in existence, XMR will go back to where btc was at in 2009.

Irwin Allen Schiff, John McAffee, Al Capone all went against the government and they all ended up in jail. You don't fuck with the government.

[mrust_mobile]

Monero's going to be a casualty in American regulators centralising crypto. If fiat exchanges use blockchain analysis companies like Wasabi hires they'll reject coins which can't be traced to good sources.

XMR's going to be available on decentralised exchanges but it's going to take a strike on price. It won't go back to 2009 bitcoin price beause ppl won't stop using XMR.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster mixers, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor Monero seem to be holding their own.

When they ban XMR-like coins from every FIAT gate in existence, XMR will go back to where btc was at in 2009.

Irwin Allen Schiff, John McAffee, Al Capone all went against the government and they all ended up in jail. You don't fuck with the government.

Some people won't stop, of course, just like how it was in 2010 with silk road...

People ain't gonna be doin their groceries with monero though. Every bit of legitimacy will be gone.

[Upgrade00]

If Monero's going to be a casualty in American regulators centralising crypto it's going to be available on decentralised exchanges. If fiat exchanges use blockchain analysis companies like Wasabi they'll reject coins which can't be traced to good source. It's going to take a strike on price but ppl won't stop using XMR.

Considering the crypto ecosystem now, exchanges and trades majorly flow through centralized exchanges and it's not a close call either. If centralized exchanges restrict XMR it will take a very heay strike on the price and only true privacy users will use them on DEX.
With majority of the liquidity gone the value will further dip.
This will only be avoided if we have more people using DEXes now.

[Solosanz]

Silk Road: anonymous marketplace. Feedback requested

I wonder why this forum wasn't been seized during Silk Road's case, I guess that case was big on that moment because sometimes few people still discuss about that.

This is not very surprising/interesting, but I thought I'd mention that I received a subpoena for information related to Ross Ulbricht's alleged forum account altoid. I mostly just compiled some publicly-available information. The only non-public data I had to include were some deleted posts in the heroin store topic that were not written by DPR and probably won't be useful in the case.

You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum.

I'm not really know about legal and laws, if there will be a time where the government doesn't like this forum, will they directly seized the forum and include theymos as a criminal/wanted or they will give a warning first?

If theymos censors Mixers, this is ONLY the beginning of further Censorship.

Why did you not close Bitcoin Talk every time China or any other country of the World has banned Bitcoin?

Below was the first censorship, it seems both theymos and Sirius are agree to not taking a big risk. Centralized mixer is always become a hot topic unlike Monero, CoinJoin etc, that's why I guess theymos still allow that.

It was removed.

Eliminating all bad PR and legal risks is a good idea - drug people can always go elsewhere. I'll remove the Silk Road thread if that's the consensus.

This forum follows US laws, so those countries e.g. China, Bangladesh etc that ban Bitcoin doesn't have any relation to US laws.

[KTChampions]

~
People shouldn't be afraid of their government.  Governments should be afraid of their people.  Even small minorities can bring change. 

The boundary between the pressure of the state and the individual (as in the case of any two opposing entities) lies where there is a balance between pressure and resistance of the one being pressured.
If we believe Theymos, he shifted the border not in favor of users without any attempt at resistance - since according to his words there was not even any pressure and he tried just prevent future problems.
I’m probably naive (and of course I don’t know all the circumstances... although why should I invent excuses for him), but I assess this as a betrayal of the ideals that this forum originally had.

[stompix]

So I can now move from the wildly criminal Mixing Service advertisement to the very healthy advertisement of MUCH better Services such as gambling or Shit Coins that end up most of the time scamming out every body.

Thanks for reminding me I had a gambling thread laying somewhere, but I wasn't been able to get any addicts into it last time so let's try again proselytize a few into horse races gambling, after all, it's just newbies losing their money, a prefect legit business.
But is this forum hosted in Georgia or Delaware, just to know before I get myself banned ?!  

Now seriously, joking aside I wish theymos to add one more clear exception to this:

Several people seem to be concerned that the current policy will be too disruptive. How about I make this modification to loosen it a bit: you can direct people to mixers by name (even in something like a "top 10 mixers" topic), as long as:
 - You don't directly post their URLs.
 - It's not a paid ad, and you're not representing a mixer.

Would this be sufficient to address the concerns?

We should be allowed to mention the name and url a of a scamming mixer in the scam accusation topic!
I'm fine without being allowed to mention the original name as this of course would lead to people making fake topics just to promote it but we should be allowed to mentioned scamming and fake ones!

[philipma1957]

Silk Road: anonymous marketplace. Feedback requested

I wonder why this forum wasn't been seized during Silk Road's case, I guess that case was big on that moment because sometimes few people still discuss about that.

This is not very surprising/interesting, but I thought I'd mention that I received a subpoena for information related to Ross Ulbricht's alleged forum account altoid. I mostly just compiled some publicly-available information. The only non-public data I had to include were some deleted posts in the heroin store topic that were not written by DPR and probably won't be useful in the case.

You might be surprised to learn that this is the first subpoena I've received for the forum.

I'm not really know about legal and laws, if there will be a time where the government doesn't like this forum, will they directly seized the forum and include theymos as a criminal/wanted or they will give a warning first?

If theymos censors Mixers, this is ONLY the beginning of further Censorship.

Why did you not close Bitcoin Talk every time China or any other country of the World has banned Bitcoin?

Below was the first censorship, it seems both theymos and Sirius are agree to not taking a big risk. Centralized mixer is always become a hot topic unlike Monero, CoinJoin etc, that's why I guess theymos still allow that.

It was removed.

Eliminating all bad PR and legal risks is a good idea - drug people can always go elsewhere. I'll remove the Silk Road thread if that's the consensus.

This forum follows US laws, so those countries e.g. China, Bangladesh etc that ban Bitcoin doesn't have any relation to US laws.

But if Bangladesh became best buddies with the USA 🇺🇸 and asked for enforcement aid it would happen.

Basically zero privacy is the governments of the world goal.

The reason for this is so called terrism and hacking theft.

The world is going in a weird space. Too bad this happened.

[WhyFhy]

The world is going in a weird space. Too bad this happened.

I feel like this quote for the last 5 years.

[Bitcoin SV]

So many users there have lost their jobs because of mixers. And these idiots laughed at me and BSV project

Thank God I have a stable job that no one will take away.

How good it is to be a bsvcian. The authorities will never declare a hunt of our BSV coin.

BSV. Stable. Compliant. Scalable

[DooMAD]

So many uses there have lost their jobs because of mixers. And these idiots laughed at me and BSV trash project

Thank God I have a stable job that no one will take away.

When your dirtbag criminal bosses end up in jail, you might find the money stops flowing.  Now stop trying to promote your worthless shitcoin in an inappropriate part of the forum.

[pooya87]

The authorities will never declare a hunt of our BSV coin.

That's true. Their time and resources are too limited to go after shitcoins that nobody uses. The same reason why they never go after tens of thousands of other similar shitcoins that nobody really uses.

[decodx]

Thank God I have a stable job that no one will take away.

How good it is to be a bsvcian. 

So you admit that Craig Wrong is paying you to troll here? 

BSV. Stable. Compliant. Scalable

Centralized, Unsupported, Scam, Pump and dump, Controversial, Patent troll, Malicious ...  Should we continue?

[Lucius]

~snip~
If it comes to that I don't think they'd stop at shutting down the forum. There'd be arrests too... It wouldn't be the first time they do something like that either!

I am quite convinced that "they" have the real IP addresses and all the data of those who advertised (and are still advertising what will be banned on the forum) and that it is quite realistic that such an operation could be launched at any time in the future. Forget VPN, Tor, proxy and everything that supposedly provides privacy, there are back doors for everything, even for the servers where this forum is located.

It's not about mixers at all because they are basically not illegal and only a small part of the transactions that pass through them come from illegal sources, but "they" are actually looking for weak points in the system through which they will then "satanize" all those who have anything to do with what we can call "Satoshi Bitcoin".

For those who have read what BlackRock wrote in their request for a spot ETF, it may be a little clearer in which direction they are trying to steer Bitcoin. If someone publicly declares that he leaves himself free to not support the chain behind which the majority stands in the event of a BTC fork, and at the same time he will probably have huge amounts of BTC in the custodial service (Coinbase), some things become a little clearer.

In addition, we see how the US authorities throw out unsuitable players from the game and secure the ground for the privatization of BTC, and in addition, they slowly start preparing miners to filter transactions. Maybe a few years ago, BTC was a small baby, as Congressman Sherman said, but obviously that has come to an end and the rules of the game will change drastically.

[Shishir99]

I thought we were supposed to be the community that stands up.  The community that reads the bad news and moves on finding a way to conquer the Evil.  Let them ban Bitcoin Talk.  Fuck it, I rather have no Bitcoin Talk than a Censored version of it.  Because what is the point then if I have to shut my mouth.

What if the admin does not care what are you talking about? Surely he is scared about it. He could have better reason like he got threats from somewhere or any kind of legal notice. But, nothing happened. I see bitcoin talk as a public forum just like other forums on the internet. If the forum does not moderate scams, then why moderate mixers when it's not illegal?

Would any country will ban guns because terrorists use them? At the same time, a country uses guns to protect itself as well. I see this censorship the same as Bitcoin ban in my country. One of our ministers said you cannot ban a currency just because it was used for crime. The currency has nothing to do. It's just a currency. Still, the government banned Bitcoin because they believe Bitcoin users are criminals.

Now, I am talking about the Bitcoin ban in my country in this forum. But where should I write about censorship of Bitcointalk?

[PrivacyG]

It's not about mixers at all because they are basically not illegal and only a small part of the transactions that pass through them come from illegal sources, but "they" are actually looking for weak points in the system through which they will then "satanize" all those who have anything to do with what we can call "Satoshi Bitcoin".

But then they can attack any body who is using Bitcoin.  They could in fact start with the Core developers and theymos himself.  Maybe then also some of the more prevalent members of Bitcoin Talk.

At which point I ask again, of what help is it to ban Mixers on Bitcoin Talk?  If they want to crack down, they will.  At any point in the future with any kind of excuse or reason.  Ban Mixers today and get arrested for conspiracy to Money Laundering tomorrow.  They do not need to FIND something.  It is enough to ruin the reputation badly enough.  How hard is it to make articles and documentaries about the 'suspicious side of Bitcoin', the side being Bitcoin Talk Signature Campaigns and such?

It is clear they are increasingly forcing more hate into Bitcoin.  But we need to stand up and fight, not accept and obey.

By banning Mixers we can also ban Monero and Coin Joins.  They are doing about the same thing.  What is the difference?  The main idea is to use them to cover your prints.  So then Authorities can easily say we should ban every thing related to Privacy too.

Next up is what?  Trezor deciding to remove Tor out of Trezor Suite?  Electrum being legally enforced to produce new versions with no more Tor or Miners being restricted from using Tor at all?  They are all methods to Privacy and if we give up one, we have to give them all up.

Otherwise it sounds even more suspicious to ban only the Services that can be seized or sanctioned.  Why ban only Mixers which can be legally seized but not ban Monero and Coin Join supporting Wallets?  Oh!  Do you happen to like these because they let you hide better, you suspect?

Any route you pick, the result is the same.  Bitcoin Talk either becomes censored which defeats the entire purpose Satoshi created this all or Bitcoin Talk decides to stand up against Censorship.

A better route would have been maybe requiring Mixers to advertise on Bitcoin Talk only if the links direct you first to a page where you are shown some sort of warning about using the Service for criminal purposes.  Or requiring such warning to be included in the Signature Campaign.  Some body who WANTS to use a Mixer will look for it anyway, whether the link is available on Bitcoin Talk directly or not.  After all, you can not oblige some body to not break the law.  But you can show a preventive warning.

But then I think it is even more important for such warnings or pages to be required for advertisement of CASINOS too.  They are in my opinion much more damaging than a Mixer.

Imagine also the impact on new users.  Or on the Bitcoin Talk members who thought about using Mixers, Monero or Coin Join before but never did it.  They will tend more toward a resistance against them and fear using them.  The same effect negative 'Bitcoin is Dying' articles had on them.  For what reason?

-----

What if the admin does not care what are you talking about? Surely he is scared about it. He could have better reason like he got threats from somewhere or any kind of legal notice. But, nothing happened. I see bitcoin talk as a public forum just like other forums on the internet. If the forum does not moderate scams, then why moderate mixers when it's not illegal?

If theymos does not care about us who stand against Censorship, then the creation of Satoshi is doomed.  Bitcoin Talk is one of the VERY few remaining websites where you can still input your opinion no matter what.  Theymos himself standing against us is self destructive in my opinion.

As soon as Bitcoin Talk does Censorship I will start looking for an alternative and I am convinced I am not the only one.  This place would only become more of a hell hole than it already is.  And if to him a Bitcoin Talk with no more people like us but filled instead to the edge with Shit Coins and scammers is better just so 'they do not shut the Forum down' then so be it.  It will probably go down the route of all the other Forums where every body only posted to be paid and you were stuck in a loop of parrots speaking to walls.

[mv1986]

On bright hide, i hope mixer will make new innovation where they offer non-custodial privacy-enchanting service. Or maybe they should switch business where they fork Wasabi Wallet and run their own WabiSabi coordinator without any blacklist.

Spot on! Talk about killing two birds with one stone.

Why stop at Wasabi though? A Whirlpool coordinator would also be cool, assuming such a thing can be extensible.

But as PrivacyG said this is just the beginning. It has nothing to do with "mixers", it has to do with the government not being able to trace down transactions. And this is where the whole thing we are discussing here doesn't make sense, it doesn't add up. Leave aside the payments from signature campaigns, but if Monero is allowed and if some other form of exchange(s) that essentially enable(s) mixing without calling it that way is allowed, wouldn't it make much more sense to comply with the law by immediately banning any mixing service that has been caught or suspected for facilitating illegal transactions?

It is as if Bitcointalk would be the only place for the Lazarus Group to go and find a mixer because some of the people here wear the signature, but this is so nonsense. And if the idea was that the IRS has less work to do because people with plans to evade taxes now don't know what to do without mixers, how ridiculous would that be?

It would have made so much more sense that Bitcointalk warns mixers that want to advertise their services here, get immediately banned if some strong evidence emerges. Or what about the US glorifying their justice system for the "being innocent until proven guilty policy"? Why can't Bitcointalk also stick to "being innocent until proven guilty" policies and react immediately when a case has been concluded by prosecutors?

Someone drew a comparison between Silk Road I think and how someone was sentenced to life in prison, but come on. Nobody here is trading weapons, drugs, or contracting assassinations. Mixers are one of those things that some will use for good, and some will use it for evil.

I believe that casinos will be the next because everything else would make zero sense. Casinos can be launched with bad intent and relatively low funding, be operated with high risk, ran into the ground and then pull the rug. Advertise gambling with no KYC, and ultimately function like a mixing service.