Mixers to be banned

[stwenhao]

I think banning mi*ers is a very good move. Why? Because now, if it will be forbidden, then people will double or triple their efforts, to mi* their coins properly. If it would be allowed, then nobody would care, and centralized mi*ers would raise and fall again, and again.

But now, the situation is different: if people will be punished for advertizing mi*ers, then they will post some pictures of kitchen robots, they will use Lightning Network, they will use Silent Payments, maybe cut-through or Full-RBF, and the whole situation will improve after all.

For that reason, I think even the word "mi*er" should be censored, that would drive more people mad, and maybe accelerate some ideas even further. Also, censoring that letter in the middle, makes it similar to the word "miner", so it will give an excuse, that "we are only talking about miners, not mi*ers".

And also, I need more kitchen robots, so keep posting them, maybe with some recipes for Christmas dishes.

[1714197540]

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[NotATether]

mi*ers

Please do not censor the word "mixer" like that because you are still allowed to talk about mixers, just linking to them is not allowed and besides, if there was a word filter, this would be caught very quickly. This is not Facebook so you don't have to worry about censorship.

You are right that is a bit annoying, but ultimately people are not going to create more mixers just because they saw someone on the internet spell it wrong.

[digaran]

[stompix]

mi*ers

Please do not censor the word "mixer" like that because you are still allowed to talk about mixers, just linking to them is not allowed and besides, if there was a word filter, this would be caught very quickly.

Well, this is the obvious outcome, we can't talk about m***s because they might be involved in c****l activities such a m***y l*****g, and other t*****t f*****g, so to not get banned we should obviously censor everything that might led to the forum being seized, that's why I won't mention g****g, d****s and w****s, and I will stay far from any w***r topics.
Of course it will become annoying to talk about services like M***m or m****t, one being a m***r the other being a company formerly lead by B**l G***s (insert GDPR law here) but it's way safer for everyone to do it like this, you never know, especially since M*****t was ordered to pay $25 million in a criminal charge investigation.

This is not Facebook so you don't have to worry about censorship.

Weird that I can find pages of m****s on F****k that still link to the now defunct m****s, but obviously I'm not going to link to them since this if now frowned upon.

[EarnOnVictor]

Many mixer URLs will be wordfiltered-out

Will you include the feedback system for filtering words? I just tested it, and (assuming I had the correct URL), it showed up. I'm asking because I've left some users neutral feedback confirming their real site (to help others avoid phishing sites).

This is called "freedom of speech" in America. Under these rules, you can add anything to the “black list”. How convenient, isn't it?

You have the freedom to express your opinion when you're in the US. That doesn't mean you get it on every privately owned server. Just like you won't get it inside anyone's house.

Until we know that there is Freedom of speech but Freedom after speech is not guaranteed we would stop believing in free speech.

So why ban exchanges here too?

FXT was an Exchange too and still pull one of the biggest crypto scam, sent many to the grave ... They ain't pure heaven.

Your example is pointless as I don't see how it relates to the subject matter. Even what you replied to from my early post is merely an excerpt that doesn't relate to anything justifiable in your reply. Exchanges are pure business models different from Mi**ers, why do you make them look like same?

Who owns Si***ad to make him accountable? But where is the former CEO of FTX now? Is he not being made accountable? Who is making the Si***ad owner accountable?

So, you don't expect the same punishment to be meted out to the two companies, don't relate what is not the same.

[nutildah]

Exchanges are pure business models different from Mi**ers, why do you make them look like same?

Who owns Si***ad to make him accountable? But where is the former CEO of FTX now? Is he not being made accountable? Who is making the Si***ad owner accountable?

The asterisks are wholly unnecessary. Theymos didn't say you're not allowed to use the word "mixer" or "Sinbad." You're just not allowed to advertise for them or post their links. If I want to talk about Sinbad, the 90s comedian, pretty sure that's also still OK.

Well, this is the obvious outcome, we can't talk about m***s because they might be involved in c****l activities such a m***y l*****g, and other t*****t f*****g, so to not get banned we should obviously censor everything that my led to the forum being seized, that's why I won't mention g****g, d****s and w****s, and I will stay far from any w***r topics.
Of course it will become annoying to talk about services like M***m or m****t, one being a m***r the other being a company formerly lead by B**l G***s (insert GDPR law here) but it's way safer for everyone to do it like this, you never know, especially since M*****t was ordered to pay $25 million in a criminal charge investigation.

For some reason this looks really angry and dirty.

[ertil]

And also, I need more kitchen robots, so keep posting them, maybe with some recipes for Christmas dishes.

Nice Newspeak! I think this is a good idea.

The new policy is to ban the advertising of a new kitchen robots, which means, if you want to link to them, you have a few options I can think about:

1. Change the color of your robot. Because the current ones are "looking grayer and grayer". Just paint it, so it will be less boring, and will attract the attention of your customers. For example, make it blue, instead of grey, many companies decided to use blue color in their products, that should work better.

2. The reason, why kitchen robots are banned, is because they are confiscated by the government. Which means, you should never own all ingredients, brought by your customers. You should just provide a place, where neighbors can meet, and rent their own robots, to cook their dishes by themselves. In that case, if anything will be confiscated, it will not be taken from you, but just from random strangers, and then, you can only be accused as a meeting organizer, but not as an owner of those robots, or any ingredients.

3. You cannot advertise your service as privacy-friendly. Which means, you should for example show the list of all ingredients, brought by each of your customer, and inform, that all of those information will never be deleted, because of KYC. You should show them: "See? You brought me five eggs, and one butter, this is very important information, and I will keep it forever!". Also, you can ask them for accepting cookies, because they are needed to decorate your dishes, and to make your food more tasty. However, don't forget about removing them from the case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzoW_GO45vk

4. The cooking is still allowed, only the usage of some kitchen utilities is forbidden. Which means, you can replace them with something else, that is not banned, or just make a room, where users can decide, what kind of machines they want to use in their kitchen. Just rent them some space to cook, don't do it for them! For example, writing a book: "How to build a kitchen utility", and linking to it, is still allowed, because then, you are not responsible for making those utilities.

5. You cannot make a discount coupon, that would allow buying "scrambled eggs" in your store. Which means, you should avoid doing so. Remember: owning something is bad, controlling it is much better. So, go on, and control the industry of scrambling eggs, instead of storing that product directly, and selling it. Be a proxy, not an owner. It is cheaper, and leads to less problems, if the government want to seize those eggs. And don't put all of them in one basket, because then all of them will be seized at once.

Edit: Also, you should check out market.h and market.cpp, from the first version, released by Santa Claus. You can learn a lot from that, and also check out similar projects, brought by other people.

[fillippone]

I am surely not happy about this move, but I think theymos has only one mission: preserve the forum's long-term success.

Sadly, at the current state of technology, a centralised forum cannot completely avoid protecting itself from violent actions from the regulators.
So, while not happy about this move, I saw it coming as a necessity to preserve this place and his mission of spreading bitcoin knowledge.

As it is for me, I will always be an advocate for privacy:

A Treatise on Bitcoin and Privacy

Once again, I recommend everyone to have a read.

[Igebotz]

I've not engaged any of your post prior to the last one so what exactly are you waffling about?

Your example is pointless as I don't see how it relates to the subject matter. Even what you replied to from my early post is merely an excerpt that doesn't relate to anything justifiable in your reply. Exchanges are pure business models different from Mi**ers, why do you make them look like same?

Who owns Si***ad to make him accountable? But where is the former CEO of FTX now? Is he not being made accountable? Who is making the Si***ad owner accountable?

So, you don't expect the same punishment to be meted out to the two companies, don't relate what is not the same.

At this point, Gentleman, you're just trolling! S!nbad did not defraud or rug pull; read the article to find out why they were sized.

Does holding FXT owner accountable bring back clients who have lost everything and committed suicide? Did any client  recover their losses in full?

[spectre71]

Look at all the happy bootlickers in here.....

[Shishir99]

If theymos does not care about us who stand against Censorship, then the creation of Satoshi is doomed.  Bitcoin Talk is one of the VERY few remaining websites where you can still input your opinion no matter what.  Theymos himself standing against us is self destructive in my opinion.

Bitcoin is supposed to be anonymity lovers and they should appreciate any service that increases anonymity. I have always heard that BitcoinTalk wants to be as free as possible and have freedom of speech for everyone. A Bitcoin user is supposed to get financial freedom and BitcoinTalk is supposed to give you freedom of speech . If you cannot talk about certain things because the admin is afraid of getting seized, that's something that is not appreciatable. People might think I am talking about it because I won't be able to join the mixer campaign in the future. That's not the case for me. You can verify it by checking my signature.

[philipma1957]

So even the providers of these services cooperate with the authorities and payments may not be processed if they are on the OFAC list, yet they are mixing services.

Yeap, I guess that probably that was mentioned in FIOD article under the point about KYT policy:

In the case of Sinbad.io, more than 50 percent of all mixed cryptocurrencies were found to have a criminal origin. In the case of Sinbad. io, there are no measures in place to implement and enforce a Know Your Customer (KYC) or Know Your Transaction (KYT) policy.

Of course we don't support criminal activity in Bitcoin or crypto, but according to the Chainalysis data just 0.12-0.24% of Bitcoin transactions is probably related with crime; and as for Bitcoin mixing, then more than 90% mixing is made by law-abiding people. So if mixers don't let to use their service for those who stole money by hacking different projects etc, most of mixer users will even not find that out ever.

Okay numbers are funny and can be played with.  But here goes.

sinbad.io handles 100 coins a day supposedly 50 are “hot” coins.


If true it is a real issue. Unfortunately we will never see the paperwork that proves it.

So theymos choose a safe path for now.

I lost $1111 a month as I just agreed to a deal with a new mixer.

I have to end the deal in a month vs 6 months.

I was donating around 150 a month to some forum members

via my diff prediction giveaway
and to talk img
and to a writer of bitcoin history from 2009 to 2024
lastly to johne mempool as it helps people avoid high tx fees.

all gone for now.

My issue is not with theymos. my problem is with the accusations that 50% of the coins in sinbad were bad.

I also know us law will not reveal the proof. until the trial.

[BabyBandit]

Did you read what theymos wrote? "If Bitcoin is banned in the United States, I'm closing down the forum," I quote, "no danm shit about other countries and Bitcoin." His dear country is what matters to him.  

Why would he do work for something that only gain other people? Nobody would still run a forum if the main character of the forum got banned in their home town.
Maybe it's time to see this from a bigger perspective then yours. Also if it's gonna be so bad you are free to create your own forum with your own rules, I would for sure support you in your journey.

If the oldest Bitcoin forum is shut down what do you think would happen to Bitcoin adoption?

Absolutely nothing. This forum and the users here have zero power to affect anything outside this forums doors.



Good luck!

[philipma1957]

Did you read what theymos wrote? "If Bitcoin is banned in the United States, I'm closing down the forum," I quote, "no danm shit about other countries and Bitcoin." His dear country is what matters to him.  

Why would he do work for something that only gain other people? Nobody would still run a forum if the main character of the forum got banned in their home town.
Maybe it's time to see this from a bigger perspective then yours. Also if it's gonna be so bad you are free to create your own forum with your own rules, I would for sure support you in your journey.

If the oldest Bitcoin forum is shut down what do you think would happen to Bitcoin adoption?

Absolutely nothing. This forum and the users here have zero power to affect anything outside this forums doors.



Good luck!

crypto has certainly grown way faster than bitcointalk.

to the point that closing this down would be sad but there are other places to do crypto.

People would lump theymos in with guys like SBF

which really would be wrong as theymos has generated lotsmof jobs and work for people all over the world.

Oh here is an analogy to why mixer attacks are a poor choice by the governement.

I buy us forever stamps when they come out in 2009. value 39 cents. on ebay they sell at 35 cents and i have a special bing coupon making them cost 25 cents.

I buy 10,000 at 2500 usd.

I stash them in a safety deposit box.

They now sell at 69 cents or  6900. the safety deposit box is not being misused even though the value is up

4400.  the bank is raided due to 10 bad people using the saftey boxes to stash stolen shit.

my box is raided. I did nothing wrong.

I will find links to this story and show that the US gov lost out on what they did.

https://news.yahoo.com/lawsuit-filed-fbi-agents-raided-201539623.html


there is an older case like this.


still trying to find it.

[jokers10]

Okay numbers are funny and can be played with.  But here goes.

sinbad.io handles 100 coins a day supposedly 50 are “hot” coins.


If true it is a real issue. Unfortunately we will never see the paperwork that proves it.

So theymos choose a safe path for now.

Yeap. And if rather big Sinbad had about 50% of transactions from criminals and if Chainalysis is correct in their market analysis, then small mixers should have nearly all transactions good. Of course it is not what can be an evidence in a court or have legally binding consequences, it is just some reflection. Legal advice in this case can be given only by a lawyer who is well acquainted with US legislation, and that's definitely not me.

I lost $1111 a month as I just agreed to a deal with a new mixer.
...
all gone for now.

No signature income is guaranteed, so it could happen and by many other reasons. Of course it is better to get some reward than not to get, but... well, I think I hadn't wear signature for more time here than I had. You said you too. We all should just pass it away.

My issue is not with theymos. my problem is with the accusations that 50% of the coins in sinbad were bad.

I also know us law will not reveal the proof. until the trial.

Some mixers are highly likely used by criminals. Despite criminals use bitcoin rarer and rarer because it is transparent, some are still using it, especially those who hack different projects which hold assets in BTC. But criminals use bank system much more often than Bitcoin and we still use bank system, criminals use knives and we still use knives... If all data from authorities and Chainalysis is correct, then this is about a specific mixer and not about mixers in general.

All this is not about theymos and his decision, because I'm not a lawyer to give legal advice, just some personal reflections.

[BlackHatCoiner]

The same can happen with mixers. The authorities' difficulty in closing mixers - associated with hacks - may lead them to start attacking forums, blogs or websites that promote these services.

But, when does this end? It is quite crazy as notion to shut down something because it contains referrals to other sites that might be involved in illicit activities. How do we ensure this remains at mixers and doesn't expand on, e.g., a coinjoin tutorial? In the end, coinjoins offer pretty much the same levels of privacy, if not greater.

This ban doesn't eliminate criminal activity in the slightest. It merely makes it less comfortable to mix coins, and pushes everyone to Monero and coinjoins. Not that bad as a result, but still, this whole situation is like beating the air.

[NotATether]

On bright hide, i hope mixer will make new innovation where they offer non-custodial privacy-enchanting service. Or maybe they should switch business where they fork Wasabi Wallet and run their own WabiSabi coordinator without any blacklist.

Spot on! Talk about killing two birds with one stone.

Why stop at Wasabi though? A Whirlpool coordinator would also be cool, assuming such a thing can be extensible.

If mixers will find a way to survive this and gain their popularity back, then the gov will come back to kill everything (the whole crypto business) next time. If that's what you want...

...Which means that's a problem with the government, and surely the wider crypto community as well as businesses will all rise up to collectively demolish such a measure of it ever comes to that. Do you remember the recent SEC litigation?

[digaran]

Absolutely nothing. This forum and the users here have zero power to affect anything outside this forums doors.
Good luck!

You are wrong, this forum was the heart of crypto community, now it is turning into something much lower than heart. Lol
We will stay here to the last second of 2023, to the last drop of milk, then we will find another signature and service to milk the life out of them, then we will continue to do so to the last days of our lives to open our eyes and see we were fooling ourselves all this time.🤣

There is no revolution, look at us, desperate for a bunch of sats on a weekly basis.  and the world is watching and laughing saying look at these bozos, they wanted to overthrow the capitalism hegemony?  They don't even know what they are doing.

Because our leader ran for the hills, Moses took 40 days to come back to see people are worshipping a golden calf, now I'd say we are stronger than Israelites, 14 years and still loyal to Bitcoin, except a few idiots.  

Back then in the absence of Moses, Aaron was the leader, but they wanted to kill him since he wanted to stop them from worshipping a false god, he had no choice other than playing along to save his own life and wait for Moses to come back.

I think our leader is busy with virgins in his mansion, but rest assured he will come back. just a shame for those losers creating their own golden calf, they don't deserve the real deal.


So we say back to the world, you are the bozos, we will show you how united we are.😉
Edit, what's that Hampuz? Can't hear you.😂

[Hhampuz]

So much yapping going on without anything of substance being said, incredible.

[Bureau]

I am surprised to see how much this forum members and those associated with the upcoming banned campaign are still bumping this topic. If the owner of the forum said no then I think it would be not right to question him. Considering the number of individuals not happy, I am not sure what they want. Mixer would not thrive anymore here, even though this forum is where they can advertise and get the highest number of users. While it is not happening in the next 27 days why argue with the authority of the owner of this forum?