Mixers to be banned

[PrivacyIsImportant]

theymos,

could you tell me whether my service's thread that ony lists and discusses mixers will be allowed here or I should wipe it before January? The thread in question: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5476445

The thread itself doesn't link any mixers, only the site that does.

Prohibited! it is contain a direct link to mixers directory.

Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers,

Well, it seems to be definitive then in case there will be no more changes to the proposed draft.

[1714540907]

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[BabyBandit]

...

He's talking about accounts, not about ANN topics or sig spaces.



@zasad@

Theymos mentionned later in the topic that existing accounts will be banned from posting, but they will be allowed to send and receive PMs during some months.
New accounts that are obviously run by mixers will not be allowed

I know, that's why answered "Yes", and includes the ann threads and sigcamp threads together in one answer.

my bad, you're correct, you replied "yes" 

Always funny when you want to correct someone so bad so you don't even have time to read what they posted. 

[Wind_FURY]

What do you mean?

2. It is possible for the mixer to steal property passing through it. Assume that the sender does everything as correctly as possible. Also assume that no miners/verifiers on the base-layer cryptocurrency are evil. But assume that every other actor involved is evil (everyone able to vote in a DAO, every coordination server, every counterparty, every member of a multisig, etc.). Ignore short-term software bugs which are expected to be quickly fixed.

Which means, if it is possible for a mixer to steal the coins (it is the case in typical, centralized mixers), then it is not allowed. But if a mixer is only a proxy, and has no way of stealing those coins, then it is accepted.

Pardon me, I'm not really sure about this, but I have always had the assumption that running a coordinator in Wasabi only allows the administrators to coordinate the CoinJoin, and earn some fees from it. But of course, you probably could also join the liquidity pool to boot-strap your coordinator, and that's the only coins you control in the pool.

I'll ask Kruw in WasabiWallet's topic. I have also suggested that they make an ELI-5 guide in how to set up our own coordinator. The community will need it.

[JollyGood]

By reading the OP again, if anything I would have thought a new thread specific to discussing mixers was a better place than this one. I completely understand if members want to discuss what is allowed to be posted (and what is going to get members a warning or ban) but beyond that I think this thread should be used for the announcement and subsequent clarification.

You are right it is one of the biggest decisions theymos has made in years and should be discussed but in this thread I have read posts about conspiracy theories and other nonsense therefore those could have been made in a dedicated thread. Having said that, there does seem to be some quality content posted here including genuine discussion, questions and corrections.

It is time for all members to get over this announcement, it is not the end of the world just because mixers will be banned.

Yes many members will no longer be earning as much if they manage to get enrolled on other signature campaigns but there is nothing more to discuss here. This forum is controlled by theymos and he has made a decision that we have to adhere to if we want to remain members.

I hope theymos locks this thread and pins it Meta board. Let us all move on.

No one denies that he can do what he wants, but since it looks like that he is williing to adjust the mixer ban rule slightly, I don't think that its pointless to discuss it.

After all, its been only a couple of days, its not like we are pondering on this for weeks or months. And it is a big decision, probably the biggest one in years so no wodner that many people have something to say on the matter.

[xtests]

Wtf, what about DDoS-for-hire services being advertised here then? theymos, for sure you are aware that DDoS is illegal in most jurisdictions and it has the same crime weight as being sanctioned by OFAC.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5467001.0 [CFNP] [banned site] Signature Campaign [ Full Member + ]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5415532.0 Stresser.net Signature campaign Sr. Member+ [HOLD]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5468359.0 [ENDED] [banned site] Signature Campaign [Full Member +]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1917425.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1456194.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1128096.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157916.0
etc...

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/fbi-seized-domains-linked-to-48-ddos-for-hire-service-platforms/

People advertise services already seized by FBI here that changed their domains (Stresse) and you have no problem with it. Don't you think you slightly overlooked some things while banning mixers?

If you are to ban services that represent juridical risk to the forum then banning such services from advertising would be a first thing to do, not mixers or sites that list mixers (that are not even illegal).

Don't be that ridiculous. While DDoS services are allowed here, you are being nothing but a hypocrite with this decision. And I am not even a fan of mixers but I like reading/participating in the yearly drama of scammed/seized mixer threads and oh, tears of paid members when something happens to the service they promoted for money are priceless.

[Shenanigan]

All questions to theymos:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5476897.0

[coupable]

Wtf, what about DDoS-for-hire services being advertised here then? theymos, for sure you are aware that DDoS is illegal in most jurisdictions and it has the same crime weight as being sanctioned by OFAC.

I agree with you on this position and support it, in addition to the fact that there are many scam projects and fictitious companies that promote fake services and that succeed in extorting millions of dollars annually that use the forum for publication and promotion.
It is supposed to be dealt with as with mixers, on the basis that it is a source of danger that must be taken care of. We have previously seen many projects being acquired by the authorities, and their representatives remain in contact with the community through the forum, and the administration did not intervene to set limits on their activities.

[PX-Z]

Always funny when you want to correct someone so bad so you don't even have time to read what they posted. 

That should be probably my line

[philipma1957]

Wtf, what about DDoS-for-hire services being advertised here then? theymos, for sure you are aware that DDoS is illegal in most jurisdictions and it has the same crime weight as being sanctioned by OFAC.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5467001.0 [CFNP] [banned site] Signature Campaign [ Full Member + ]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5415532.0 Stresser.net Signature campaign Sr. Member+ [HOLD]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5468359.0 [ENDED] [banned site] Signature Campaign [Full Member +]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1917425.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1456194.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1128096.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157916.0
etc...

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/fbi-seized-domains-linked-to-48-ddos-for-hire-service-platforms/

People advertise services already seized by FBI here that changed their domains (Stresse) and you have no problem with it. Don't you think you slightly overlooked some things while banning mixers?

If you are to ban services that represent juridical risk to the forum then banning such services from advertising would be a first thing to do, not mixers or sites that list mixers (that are not even illegal).

Don't be that ridiculous. While DDoS services are allowed here, you are being nothing but a hypocrite with this decision. And I am not even a fan of mixers but I like reading/participating in the yearly drama of scammed/seized mixer threads and oh, tears of paid members when something happens to the service they promoted for money are priceless.

The difference is the Government that this forum runs from. Opened an account and posted no no no we will prosecute you if you work with Sinbad.io we are shutting Sinbad.io down and will but anyone on this forum that continues to post for them.

Now I also happen to be in the same government jurisdiction as this forum and as thermos. I pulled my mixer add for Sinbad down.

Moron idiot dt's red flagged the government poster.

that means those it's jeopardized all of the forum by doing that.

ALL OF THIS IS KNOW TO ANY ONE THAT IS FOLLOWING THIS DRAMA.

What we do not know is what did (USA government) tell thermos off the record. 

The USA government can crush you like a grape if you are in their borders

Hell they told Canada Detain and send the HUA executive to us because we say so. and Canada did that.

So you complaints should go against the dt genius's that red tagged the official government poster that was kind enough to warn people to cease and desist posting a signature  for Sinbad.\

Do we know the full id's of those dt member's as they may have jeopardized people that delayed taking their signature down.

Rathe than yell at theymos the anger should be directed at those dt members that red tagged the government warning.

Has that been corrected.

has it been erased and deleted.

If I need the warning and the red tags if the feds say I was too slow to pull down my Sinbad ad will I get them.

In fact for all of us that ran the signatures will we get info to defend ourselves if the feds go after us.

These are far more important then your complaints.

I could argue that the dt taggers now face liability issues by trying to taint the governments generous warning and that I and anyone that was a bit slow to get the message due to those red flags has a right to get full disclosure of their identities.

Hopefully the feds will leave me alone and the others that had signatures for Sinbad alone.

[digaran]

.......
those dt members that red tagged the government warning.

Has that been corrected.

has it been erased and deleted.

If I need the warning and the red tags if the feds say I was too slow to pull down my Sinbad ad will I get them.

In fact for all of us that ran the signatures will we get info to defend ourselves if the feds go after us.
.......

Hopefully the feds will leave me alone and the others that had signatures for Sinbad alone.

Stalker22   2023-11-29   Reference   Impersonating a government organization.
Igebotz   2023-11-29      Impersonating FIOD. Can't be trusted
KTChampions   2023-11-29   Reference   Don't tread on me.

You mean those bozos? 1 of them slapped a cop on duty, the other 1 pulled his pants down, the last one just smashed a pie to his face, WHILE on duty. Guess what? %90 of people on DT are living in a fantasy world, they don't know what is the world, they think they are some sort of tough mf from hollywood movies.

And I don't know if they are still on DT or not, but they don't care, any other DT not excluding them seems to agree with their decision. "Oh we are tough, we don't tolerate cops here" mentality.

Now it's not like that account was asking for a loan or anything else, to say the tags were justified, funny they didn't correct their mistake. That's why not anyone is fit for DT, they should be selected with care.

People should ignore all positive/negative feedbacks, they are not necessarily the opinions of the community as a whole.

[theymos]

Wtf, what about DDoS-for-hire services being advertised here then?

I agree that DDoS services are too legally dubious (moreso even than mixers) and should not be allowed. And if a services's domain is seized, then in 99% of cases that service should not be allowed on bitcointalk.org even if it's still accessible in other ways.

Those threads have all been deleted or locked, and 2 domains have been wordfiltered. If there are more threads elsewhere, please use the "report to moderator" function on them. If more things should be wordfiltered, create a new Meta topic. (None of the topics you linked had ever received any reports, which is why the matter of DDoS services was never really considered.)

[philipma1957]

.......
those dt members that red tagged the government warning.

Has that been corrected.

has it been erased and deleted.

If I need the warning and the red tags if the feds say I was too slow to pull down my Sinbad ad will I get them.

In fact for all of us that ran the signatures will we get info to defend ourselves if the feds go after us.
.......

Hopefully the feds will leave me alone and the others that had signatures for Sinbad alone.

Stalker22   2023-11-29   Reference   Impersonating a government organization.
Igebotz   2023-11-29      Impersonating FIOD. Can't be trusted
KTChampions   2023-11-29   Reference   Don't tread on me.

You mean those bozos? 1 of them slapped a cop on duty, the other 1 pulled his pants down, the last one just smashed a pie to his face, WHILE on duty. Guess what? %90 of people on DT are living in a fantasy world, they don't know what is the world, they think they are some sort of tough mf from hollywood movies.

And I don't know if they are still on DT or not, but they don't care, any other DT not excluding them seems to agree with their decision. "Oh we are tough, we don't tolerate cops here" mentality.

Now it's not like that account was asking for a loan or anything else, to say the tags were justified, funny they didn't correct their mistake. That's why not anyone is fit for DT, they should be selected with care.

People should ignore all positive/negative feedbacks, they are not necessarily the opinions of the community as a whole.

thank you.

I think I pulled my signature for Sinbad in under 24 hours from that warning post, but those tags delayed me for about 90 minutes. SO I do appreciate your info.


@ theymos It can be hard to run a tight ship. You have done well over the years.

It is possible that more restrictions will be needed.

Many people in many parts of the world simply do not understand the rules and regs USA has people do.

[examplens]

I agree that DDoS services are too legally dubious (moreso even than mixers) and should not be allowed. And if a services's domain is seized, then in 99% of cases that service should not be allowed on bitcointalk.org even if it's still accessible in other ways.

Those threads have all been deleted or locked, and 2 domains have been wordfiltered. If there are more threads elsewhere, please use the "report to moderator" function on them. If more things should be wordfiltered, create a new Meta topic. (None of the topics you linked had ever received any reports, which is why the matter of DDoS services was never really considered.)

Chipmixer ANN is still active, even though the discussion there has been reactivated. I'm not sure if it's constructive at all.

Is there any basis at all to discuss the possibility of minimal presence in all services, without the possibility of advertising and links to their web pages? I made a suggestion here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5476162.msg63278935#msg63278935
Such an approach would make things easier for all members of the forum, and the concession to these services would be minimal.

Finally, if there are abuses or too many omissions, a restrictive rule like the one announced in this thread can always be applied.

The difference is the Government that this forum runs from. Opened an account and posted no no no we will prosecute you if you work with Sinbad.io we are shutting Sinbad.io down and will but anyone on this forum that continues to post for them.

Now I also happen to be in the same government jurisdiction as this forum and as thermos. I pulled my mixer add for Sinbad down.

Moron idiot dt's red flagged the government poster.

that means those it's jeopardized all of the forum by doing that.

Honestly, I don't think they care about some kind of red tag on the forum. The forum's reputation is for us, the active members of the forum, and whoever was behind that account will probably forget it in a month, if not already.
Certainly, those feedbacks seem to be incorrect.

[philipma1957]

I agree that DDoS services are too legally dubious (moreso even than mixers) and should not be allowed. And if a services's domain is seized, then in 99% of cases that service should not be allowed on bitcointalk.org even if it's still accessible in other ways.

Those threads have all been deleted or locked, and 2 domains have been wordfiltered. If there are more threads elsewhere, please use the "report to moderator" function on them. If more things should be wordfiltered, create a new Meta topic. (None of the topics you linked had ever received any reports, which is why the matter of DDoS services was never really considered.)

Chipmixer ANN is still active, even though the discussion there has been reactivated. I'm not sure if it's constructive at all.

Is there any basis at all to discuss the possibility of minimal presence in all services, without the possibility of advertising and links to their web pages? I made a suggestion here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5476162.msg63278935#msg63278935
Such an approach would make things easier for all members of the forum, and the concession to these services would be minimal.

Finally, if there are abuses or too many omissions, a restrictive rule like the one announced in this thread can always be applied.

The difference is the Government that this forum runs from. Opened an account and posted no no no we will prosecute you if you work with Sinbad.io we are shutting Sinbad.io down and will but anyone on this forum that continues to post for them.

Now I also happen to be in the same government jurisdiction as this forum and as thermos. I pulled my mixer add for Sinbad down.

Moron idiot dt's red flagged the government poster.

that means those it's jeopardized all of the forum by doing that.

Honestly, I don't think they care about some kind of red tag on the forum. The forum's reputation is for us, the active members of the forum, and whoever was behind that account will probably forget it in a month, if not already.
Certainly, those feedbacks seem to be incorrect.

Not what I mean at all. There were 30 or more signature people and I took my signature down in 22-23 hours. Basically I was slower due to those false tags.

Others were slower at least 4-5 people would have been quicker to remove signatures. I think in part all mixers were knocked out  because of those 3 tags slowing removal of signatures.  So how many mixers will end and how many fees will end and that my friend will affect the forum. Yeah people bitch and moan about signatures but very few places in the world have it. My opinion is those 3 were extremely irresponsible doin what they did.  In fact I think one of them has removed what they said which means they figured out they could be in trouble for directly interfering with government enforcement by what they did.  Years ago I was really transparent trying to help BTC get off the ground  I did which was nice enough. (likely it did not need my help) .

We know have many hide behind vpns tor and the like.

Well BTC will be shady and die or open and live.  My opinion take it with a grain of salt. BTW the block chain is an open book so think about it.

[Apocollapse]

Those threads have all been deleted or locked, and 2 domains have been wordfiltered. If there are more threads elsewhere, please use the "report to moderator" function on them. If more things should be wordfiltered, create a new Meta topic. (None of the topics you linked had ever received any reports, which is why the matter of DDoS services was never really considered.)

I thought you will take an action starting January 1, 2024 just like mixer, but I'm surprised you did it faster that I thought. However, I need to thank you by not give a ban on me 

My signature will be removed after I get a response from my campaign manager.

[SamReomo]

Those threads have all been deleted or locked, and 2 domains have been wordfiltered. If there are more threads elsewhere, please use the "report to moderator" function on them. If more things should be wordfiltered, create a new Meta topic. (None of the topics you linked had ever received any reports, which is why the matter of DDoS services was never really considered.)

I thought you will take an action starting January 1, 2024 just like mixer, but I'm surprised you did it faster that I thought. However, I need to thank you by not give a ban on me  

My signature will be removed after I get a response from my campaign manager.

I don't think that it makes sense to ban a user because he/she has taken part in a campaign which was allowed initially. I think you didn't broke any rules nor did the campaign manager who promoted that site, but now that theymos knows about it and finds it unsuitable for the forum, you and the manager who's promoting that site should remove it as soon as possible. That's going to be helpful for the forum because such sites and services aren't any helpful as they can cause much trouble for the websites.

[BabyBandit]

.......
those dt members that red tagged the government warning.

Has that been corrected.

has it been erased and deleted.

If I need the warning and the red tags if the feds say I was too slow to pull down my Sinbad ad will I get them.

In fact for all of us that ran the signatures will we get info to defend ourselves if the feds go after us.
.......

Hopefully the feds will leave me alone and the others that had signatures for Sinbad alone.

Stalker22   2023-11-29   Reference   Impersonating a government organization.
Igebotz   2023-11-29      Impersonating FIOD. Can't be trusted
KTChampions   2023-11-29   Reference   Don't tread on me.

You mean those bozos? 1 of them slapped a cop on duty, the other 1 pulled his pants down, the last one just smashed a pie to his face, WHILE on duty. Guess what? %90 of people on DT are living in a fantasy world, they don't know what is the world, they think they are some sort of tough mf from hollywood movies.

And I don't know if they are still on DT or not, but they don't care, any other DT not excluding them seems to agree with their decision. "Oh we are tough, we don't tolerate cops here" mentality.

Now it's not like that account was asking for a loan or anything else, to say the tags were justified, funny they didn't correct their mistake. That's why not anyone is fit for DT, they should be selected with care.

People should ignore all positive/negative feedbacks, they are not necessarily the opinions of the community as a whole.

With this logic Stalker22 should get red tagged for impersonating a stalker.
With this logic KTChampions should get red tagged for impersonating a champion.

I don't know why people are so hurry in leaving feedback on this forum  like a junkie is to put his needle in his arm when he wake's up? But hey if we choose to go this way to tag accounts for the reason: they have a specific nickname the feedback system is doomed and nothing to take serious anymore. Why cant you just wait a bit? What will happen if wait until the account have done something that 100% can proof your claims? Nothing. What are you afraid of? That someone else will be faster then you for posting the feedback? This maybe sound harsh, but I want to know and learn about this system that's why I ask.
And please don't insult me with "If we don't leave the feedback this user will be able to scam a newbie for 100 bitcoins so we must warn the forum".. It just don't work on me.

Always funny when you want to correct someone so bad so you don't even have time to read what they posted.  

That should be probably my line

Yes it should I am sorry for stealing it my friend my intentions was good I promise. Have a good weekend.  



hundred times sorry for off-topic, but I take advantage of the time to learn me new things.

[EarnOnVictor]

Those threads have all been deleted or locked, and 2 domains have been wordfiltered. If there are more threads elsewhere, please use the "report to moderator" function on them. If more things should be wordfiltered, create a new Meta topic. (None of the topics you linked had ever received any reports, which is why the matter of DDoS services was never really considered.)

I thought you will take an action starting January 1, 2024 just like mixer, but I'm surprised you did it faster that I thought. However, I need to thank you by not give a ban on me  

My signature will be removed after I get a response from my campaign manager.

I don't think that it makes sense to ban a user because he/she has taken part in a campaign which was allowed initially. I think you didn't broke any rules nor did the campaign manager who promoted that site, but now that theymos knows about it and finds it unsuitable for the forum, you and the manager who's promoting that site should remove it as soon as possible. That's going to be helpful for the forum because such sites and services aren't any helpful as they can cause much trouble for the websites.

Of course, we are not on a banana island and theymos is never a person who doesn't consider others. There is no need to worry if such was done before and the grace still covers many till the first day of next year. What the guy is referring to was what was done when there was no announcement at all about it, and there wasn't any proposed rule either, so in this case, I have never seen anybody that would be guilty or be sanctioned due to it, especially when it was the norms before an issue arose.

But against what I read from him, I advise anyone to make sure that they get their m!xing signature off before 01/01/2024, this is even before their manager tells them. Although most might still give the grace extension to the end of that day, it might be unwise to be entirely waiting for one's manager before doing so, some managers are slow so that it would not looks like an affront.

This is just what I would have done in their situation, it's just advice.

[LoyceV]

Chipmixer ANN is still active, even though the discussion there has been reactivated. I'm not sure if it's constructive at all.

The site is gone, so there's nothing being promoted anymore.

[examplens]

Chipmixer ANN is still active, even though the discussion there has been reactivated. I'm not sure if it's constructive at all.

The site is gone, so there's nothing being promoted anymore.

The Sinbad site also is gone, and all kinds of promotions stopped, but the thread was immediately archived.
This only supports my proposal that the mixer threads should remain, without the possibility of promotion.