Mixers to be banned

[philipma1957]

Basically who here would picket the Kremlin with a sign that says "fuck you Putin end the war"

It's not a very good analogy because in the democracy of the "free world" we value and enjoy freedom of expression. So, you're pretty much allowed here to say things like "Fuck you Biden, stop the war!"

Not many of us, so why ask theymos to protest against multiple governments.

Not all protests against governments are inherently or universally negative. Especially when they advocate for human rights.

(Just to be clear, I'm talking in general. I'm not advocating that theymos should openly oppose laws or regulations in this case.)

yes I can march in front of the white house with a sign saying fuck you Biden end the war. ( And resonably feel safe to do so)

and I can’t march in front of the kremlin with a sign saying fuck you Putin end the war (with a reasonable expectation of being safe to do so)

Theymos actions here hint he feels that keeping the mixers up 🆙 will get the forum a Putin action not a Biden action in my analogy.

Do I like that this happened nope.

I am getting older and the work to run the mine is far harder than writing posts on bitcointalk.

I was looking to transition from mining and post for side money.

Most people that know my history since 2012 on bitcointalk know I usually do not sell my space.

But with age and miners getting physically bigger I am tiring out.

Hernia operation last year healed okay but I can feel the mesh strain on heavy lifts.

Hey I wish the mixer ban was not needed. But I do not want to see bitcointalk be closed down over it.

[STT]

Brave people have protested Putin, ideally the whole of society is united on that protest or at least the ability to do so but its not always that way.   I believe some of those protestors remain alive, some maybe not so much.  Putin does have some election of a kind coming up btw.
  Jambler I dont know well but you can guess on its validity by judging whether its likely to have action taken against it for providing whatever information it provides.  Search engines were mentioned but I see they are censored in some way in various topics, usually its copyright related and ways to gain illegal copies of things.   So with Jambler are they protected by free speech or would they refuse to comply in the way that say Google is complying with requests to limit its search results.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

All members who advertised mixers will be banned from Jan 1, 2024.

[JayJuanGee]

Basically who here would picket the Kremlin with a sign that says "fuck you Putin end the war"

It's not a very good analogy because in the democracy of the "free world" we value and enjoy freedom of expression. So, you're pretty much allowed here to say things like "Fuck you Biden, stop the war!"

Not many of us, so why ask theymos to protest against multiple governments.

Not all protests against governments are inherently or universally negative. Especially when they advocate for human rights.

(Just to be clear, I'm talking in general. I'm not advocating that theymos should openly oppose laws or regulations in this case.)

yes I can march in front of the white house with a sign saying fuck you Biden end the war. ( And resonably feel safe to do so)

and I can’t march in front of the kremlin with a sign saying fuck you Putin end the war (with a reasonable expectation of being safe to do so)

Theymos actions here hint he feels that keeping the mixers up 🆙 will get the forum a Putin action not a Biden action in my analogy.

Do I like that this happened nope.

I am getting older and the work to run the mine is far harder than writing posts on bitcointalk.

I was looking to transition from mining and post for side money.

Most people that know my history since 2012 on bitcointalk know I usually do not sell my space.

But with age and miners getting physically bigger I am tiring out.

Hernia operation last year healed okay but I can feel the mesh strain on heavy lifts.

Hey I wish the mixer ban was not needed. But I do not want to see bitcointalk be closed down over it.

There should be ways not to work after getting into your mid to late 60s, and why should we want to be worrying about a few hundred bucks from signature campaigns.

Even my ideas of sustainable BTC withdrawal might allow for 21 BTC to serve as a decently income of a couple thousand extra per month to supplement any other cashflows that you might have (see my latest chart), and it seems to me that the amount of sustainable withdrawal should be continuing to go up... since the 200-week moving average continues to move up, and even in last year and a half, it had a bad year and a half, but it still went up at about an average of 20% per year (which is it's lowest increases in its recorded history) (see my entry-level fuck you status chart).

I am personally considering that in the coming years, 21 BTC should be able to provide $3k to $4k or more income per month, which would be 10x to 20x greater than the better paying signature campaigns.

Regarding the actual topic, it seems that several of the compromises theymos made over the last couple of weeks are enough to show that he is likely not wanting to be draconian in his various kinds of enforcement, so likely members would need to be somewhat blatant in their promotion of specific mixing services, and surely some members are more reliant on interactions in which they are able to obfuscate their transactions, which seems to be rights that we have, and surely many of us are likely concerned about various kinds of government overreach when it comes to monitoring us and also quelling our various kinds of speech, and we have rights to speak, but surely on a forum like this, the person running the forum (theymos in this case) might sometimes be under pressure if some kinds of safeguards are not taken.. even though there are also Section 230 protections.. yet I would imagine many forum operators, whether theymos or otherwise, would prefer to not have to make any court appearances to defend their section 230 protections... and then there sometimes are ambiguities between financial laws that might even conflict with section 203 protections, including some of the new legislative proposals that are likely vague and overreaches and abuses of governmental powers.

[coupable]

snip

You don't have to constantly follow all the posts in this thread since theymos updated the OP with the new rules. To your specific question, I think this applies:

- Mixer URLs will be automatically wordfiltered out, but you can still discuss mixers otherwise.

So I guess discussions regarding scam accusations and other aspects of a particular mixer site will be allowed unless they clearly serve as promotions. But keep in mind that the direct url to the mixer site might be automatically filtered out.

Thank you for the detailed answer, but I wanted to point out that you did not answer the most important part of my question, which relates to the right of the mixer to join the discussion in cases where he is directly involved, whether that is for explanation or to remove suspicion about him. It is logical that there is an account that has the right to say that I follow such-and-such mixer (with proof of course provided) and to speak in his name as an official representative to discuss a specific situation and never for advertising purposes.

Good point. It is possible that there will be some marginal cases where a mixer service is suspected of being a scam unfairly, so it would be useful if their (un)official representative could address the community publicly and share their side of the story. I guess that in such situations the community will have to make an opinion based only on the evidence presented.

If the evidences presented are one-sided, the community will not be able to provide an accurate opinion. I was hoping keep stick the topics that list Mixer Scam platforms. At least as a reference for community in extreme cases, and I do not see that this will disrupt the activation of the general mixers ban.
With the expansion of the scope of application of the new updates, it is most logical to also disallow the publication of complaints related to Mixers services in the scam and accusations section if (un)official representative will not allowed.

[Synchronice]

We're waiting for theymos to tell us his decision. Jambler isn't a mixer so he probably won't ban it. It's his forum so we'll have to abide by his rules. If he says Jambler's allowed because it isn't a mixer we shouldn't press the question more. Things are changing in the forum next month we've got to accept it.

What if there is another news with title: FBI seized two mixers that were a subproduct of [banned mixer]? I am afraid, [banned mixer] will be banned to because it providers service to 3rd parties, i.e. what it does is that it has ready to built a mixer code, it provides money and all you have to do is to register a domain, take care of marketing and take the responsibility on yourself. When someone sends money to xmixer, they'll say that money was sent through xmixer and not [banned mixer] but when you are a partner of [banned mixer] and [banned mixer] provides bitcoin and mixing service for you without KYC data, you are in danger too. Hope I am wrong.

If we ban Jambler, we should ban Google as well.

ban bing and all search engines.

While we're at it, let's ban all news publications that report about mixers too.

You are kidding, right?
The reason theymos bans mixers is that mixers are openly promoted on this forum. There is a lot of discussion in their ANN threads too. Are there many places where mixers can promote themselves as well as they can on this forum? There are none, right? So, believe it or not, this forum can become a target too and why does theymos has to risk everything? Who is responsible besides him if forum gets seized if he follows your advice and doesn't ban mixers? Are you responsible? He hasn't completely banned them too.

[Igebotz]

While we're at it, let's ban all news publications that report about mixers too.

Bro you're about to make me unemployed.  

All members who advertised mixers will be banned from Jan 1, 2024.

No one is safe at the moment, theymos could wake up and place temp ban on all active sig Managers for promoting mixers. Everyone should be prepared for the worst while hoping for the best.

[digaran]

While we're at it, let's ban all news publications that report about mixers too.

Bro you're about to make me unemployed.  

All members who advertised mixers will be banned from Jan 1, 2024.

No one is safe at the moment, theymos could wake up and place temp ban on all active sig Managers for promoting mixers. Everyone should be prepared for the worst while hoping for the best.

But you know where you are wrong? he is not the type to wake up one morning and decide to change the rules of the game for no good reason unlike the people around him.

No need to worry though, I have heard they are inviting JLo to perform at altcointalk, so even you guys get a ban here, you still can continue over there with JLo on top of the deal.😉

[NotATether]

While we're at it, let's ban all news publications that report about mixers too.

You are kidding, right?
The reason theymos bans mixers is that mixers are openly promoted on this forum. There is a lot of discussion in their ANN threads too. Are there many places where mixers can promote themselves as well as they can on this forum? There are none, right? So, believe it or not, this forum can become a target too and why does theymos has to risk everything? Who is responsible besides him if forum gets seized if he follows your advice and doesn't ban mixers? Are you responsible? He hasn't completely banned them too.

That was a joke.

[philipma1957]

Basically who here would picket the Kremlin with a sign that says "fuck you Putin end the war"

It's not a very good analogy because in the democracy of the "free world" we value and enjoy freedom of expression. So, you're pretty much allowed here to say things like "Fuck you Biden, stop the war!"

Not many of us, so why ask theymos to protest against multiple governments.

Not all protests against governments are inherently or universally negative. Especially when they advocate for human rights.

(Just to be clear, I'm talking in general. I'm not advocating that theymos should openly oppose laws or regulations in this case.)

yes I can march in front of the white house with a sign saying fuck you Biden end the war. ( And resonably feel safe to do so)

and I can’t march in front of the kremlin with a sign saying fuck you Putin end the war (with a reasonable expectation of being safe to do so)

Theymos actions here hint he feels that keeping the mixers up 🆙 will get the forum a Putin action not a Biden action in my analogy.

Do I like that this happened nope.

I am getting older and the work to run the mine is far harder than writing posts on bitcointalk.

I was looking to transition from mining and post for side money.

Most people that know my history since 2012 on bitcointalk know I usually do not sell my space.

But with age and miners getting physically bigger I am tiring out.

Hernia operation last year healed okay but I can feel the mesh strain on heavy lifts.

Hey I wish the mixer ban was not needed. But I do not want to see bitcointalk be closed down over it.

There should be ways not to work after getting into your mid to late 60s, and why should we want to be worrying about a few hundred bucks from signature campaigns.

Even my ideas of sustainable BTC withdrawal might allow for 21 BTC to serve as a decently income of a couple thousand extra per month to supplement any other cashflows that you might have (see my latest chart), and it seems to me that the amount of sustainable withdrawal should be continuing to go up... since the 200-week moving average continues to move up, and even in last year and a half, it had a bad year and a half, but it still went up at about an average of 20% per year (which is it's lowest increases in its recorded history) (see my entry-level fuck you status chart).

I am personally considering that in the coming years, 21 BTC should be able to provide $3k to $4k or more income per month, which would be 10x to 20x greater than the better paying signature campaigns.

Regarding the actual topic, it seems that several of the compromises theymos made over the last couple of weeks are enough to show that he is likely not wanting to be draconian in his various kinds of enforcement, so likely members would need to be somewhat blatant in their promotion of specific mixing services, and surely some members are more reliant on interactions in which they are able to obfuscate their transactions, which seems to be rights that we have, and surely many of us are likely concerned about various kinds of government overreach when it comes to monitoring us and also quelling our various kinds of speech, and we have rights to speak, but surely on a forum like this, the person running the forum (theymos in this case) might sometimes be under pressure if some kinds of safeguards are not taken.. even though there are also Section 230 protections.. yet I would imagine many forum operators, whether theymos or otherwise, would prefer to not have to make any court appearances to defend their section 230 protections... and then there sometimes are ambiguities between financial laws that might even conflict with section 203 protections, including some of the new legislative proposals that are likely vague and overreaches and abuses of governmental powers.

I got very well paid for my signature. Sinbad  was paying me $225 a week.

Tumbler paid more than sinbad.

I did not need the signature money and gave away 0.01 of it to various projects here on bitcointalk.

was planning to give more. but the funds won’t be coming in for 2024.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I got very well paid for my signature. Sinbad  was paying me $225 a week.

Tumbler paid more than sinbad.

I did not need the signature money and gave away 0.01 of it to various projects here on bitcointalk.

was planning to give more. but the funds won’t be coming in for 2024.

Fair enough.  Those are paying around 3x higher than I was estimating the top of them to be.. I was thinking that earlier some people were proclaiming that Chipmixer was paying $300 to possibly $400 per month for the top of the earners... so yeah a bit higher than i expected.

[cryptosize]

[edited out]

I got very well paid for my signature. Sinbad  was paying me $225 a week.

Tumbler paid more than sinbad.

I did not need the signature money and gave away 0.01 of it to various projects here on bitcointalk.

was planning to give more. but the funds won’t be coming in for 2024.

Fair enough.  Those are paying around 3x higher than I was estimating the top of them to be.. I was thinking that earlier some people were proclaiming that Chipmixer was paying $300 to possibly $400 per month for the top of the earners... so yeah a bit higher than i expected.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I got very well paid for my signature. Sinbad  was paying me $225 a week.

Tumbler paid more than sinbad.

I did not need the signature money and gave away 0.01 of it to various projects here on bitcointalk.

was planning to give more. but the funds won’t be coming in for 2024.

Fair enough.  Those are paying around 3x higher than I was estimating the top of them to be.. I was thinking that earlier some people were proclaiming that Chipmixer was paying $300 to possibly $400 per month for the top of the earners... so yeah a bit higher than i expected.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

Now that you are saying that, I am pretty sure that I was getting my months and weeks mixed up... so I was thinking $300 per month and it was probably something closer to $300 per week.. so yeah, my own memory was down playing the payment amounts... and therefore shows why so many members are inclined towards wearing signatures, and I did have a couple of years of wearing signatures, but after a while, I just was finding it to be too much of a hassle.

[JollyGood]

I doubt the member you know that earned $1200 per month was a sole case by being on a customised deal. If I recall correctly, for a short period at one stage all the Chipmixer participants were getting paid more than $1200 per month because the price of Bitcoin was high enough to take them over $300 per week.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

[mv1986]

I doubt the member you know that earned $1200 per month was a sole case by being on a customised deal. If I recall correctly, for a short period at one stage all the Chipmixer participants were getting paid more than $1200 per month because the price of Bitcoin was high enough to take them over $300 per week.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

You recall correctly! But it wasn't because the Bitcoin price was high enough, it was guaranteed over $300 per week if someone made the allowed 50 posts to be paid as it was a flat rate for every participant of $6 per post. Depending on the month, it was ~ $1300-1350 per week month. In many places of the world, an account in that signature campaign would get them above average income per month.

[JollyGood]

I doubt the member you know that earned $1200 per month was a sole case by being on a customised deal. If I recall correctly, for a short period at one stage all the Chipmixer participants were getting paid more than $1200 per month because the price of Bitcoin was high enough to take them over $300 per week.

You recall correctly! But it wasn't because the Bitcoin price was high enough, it was guaranteed over $300 per week if someone made the allowed 50 posts to be paid as it was a flat rate for every participant of $6 per post. Depending on the month, it was ~ $1300-1350 per week.

Your memory is far better than mine

In many places of the world, an account in that signature campaign would get them above average income per month.

That is one of the beautiful things about the forum ecosystem because of the way it has contributed to the benefit of such a large number of members. The economy it has generated (by virtue of signature campaigns, buying/selling goods, services, competitions/games, loans and crypto exchanging) has flourished.

The imbalance is there for us all to see when posting in a forum as a Chipmixer participant back then would earn a minimum of $1200 per month when (as you rightly stated) it is above average income for many people around the world. That figure will drop significantly from new years day, that is when we will be able to estimate a median campaign rate.

[AbuBhakar]

Now that you are saying that, I am pretty sure that I was getting my months and weeks mixed up... so I was thinking $300 per month and it was probably something closer to $300 per week.. so yeah, my own memory was down playing the payment amounts... and therefore shows why so many members are inclined towards wearing signatures, and I did have a couple of years of wearing signatures, but after a while, I just was finding it to be too much of a hassle.

There’s already some campaign like from @icopress that doesn’t have minimum post requirements to get payment. Campaigns is now adjusting to employ quality poster like you in the forum by removing the hassle of meeting post quota.

[NotATether]

I doubt the member you know that earned $1200 per month was a sole case by being on a customised deal. If I recall correctly, for a short period at one stage all the Chipmixer participants were getting paid more than $1200 per month because the price of Bitcoin was high enough to take them over $300 per week.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

We are going meta at this point, but it's a little incorrect - It was max 0.0375BTC per week until some time in 2021, and then up to $300 per week after that.

So in any case, it was quite a number of people, not just one.

[EarnOnVictor]

Now that you are saying that, I am pretty sure that I was getting my months and weeks mixed up... so I was thinking $300 per month and it was probably something closer to $300 per week.. so yeah, my own memory was down playing the payment amounts... and therefore shows why so many members are inclined towards wearing signatures, and I did have a couple of years of wearing signatures, but after a while, I just was finding it to be too much of a hassle.

There’s already some campaign like from @icopress that doesn’t have minimum post requirements to get payment. Campaigns is now adjusting to employ quality poster like you in the forum by removing the hassle of meeting post quota.

You mean @JayJuanGee? You might want to rethink, he won't he was just making a point.

Someone who was not tempted to join any campaign when the m!xers are active with a big money, I don't believe he can be interested this time. Is it for the money? I believe that someone like him should go for a special package among the campaigns if at all he wants to earn from campaigns. He might talk to any of the CMs and I believe a good deal would be achieved since he has all it takes.

But I don't think JayJuanGee is ready for that and his activity on the forum during the thick and thin times is highly commendable.

[Porfirii]

I doubt the member you know that earned $1200 per month was a sole case by being on a customised deal. If I recall correctly, for a short period at one stage all the Chipmixer participants were getting paid more than $1200 per month because the price of Bitcoin was high enough to take them over $300 per week.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

We are going meta at this point, but it's a little incorrect - It was max 0.0375BTC per week until some time in 2021, and then up to $300 per week after that.

So in any case, it was quite a number of people, not just one.

If I'm not wrong, those 0.0375BTC meant over 3k USD a month at the time CM decided to fix it to the dollar. mv1986 is right, so apply it to 3k: it is a high salary in most countries, very high in mine, and unconceivable in regimes like Cuban. The perfect complement for many, and perhaps a lifesaver for some. The best posters were there, so it's not so surprising.

There’s already some campaign like from @icopress that doesn’t have minimum post requirements to get payment. Campaigns is now adjusting to employ quality poster like you in the forum by removing the hassle of meeting post quota.

Livecasino signature campaign, managed by the Cro2 team, doesn't have a minimum quota either. They are very critical with the quality, instead, which is perfect to avoid spam.