Mixers to be banned

[Synchronice]

Governments are going after centralized mixers. I would question the legality of the government running a mixer as a 'honeypot' for more than a short period of time, although they can seize any logs the mixer was keeping, regardless of any public claims to the contrary.

Eh, depending on the mixer. For all we know, ChipMixer wasn't keeping logs. What's the point of keeping logs if you are not a honeypot?

The data, it's a huge asset. Chipmixer owner could probably use the data to analyze how effective the mixer was and improve mixing even further. You know address that deposits, address that receives, address that sends, then you move coins from one address to another and so on. By the way, 7TB can be a speculation to frighten people and make them believe that no mixer follows its no-log promise and they are all dangerous. Makes sense, right? But no one knows the truth.

What do you think the merchants that receive funds from you marked to be from a mixer and possibly even from criminal activity think?  Your beliefs might be cute in your head, but when you're doing things that can get other people's businesses caught up in criminal investigations that doesn't make you a hero for privacy, it makes you an asshole.

What if get the bill from a cashier that someone used to snort cocaine? Will I be in trouble because someone found coke's traces on that? No, right? So, why should merchants get caught up in criminal investigations? Doesn't make sense, they receive money what their customers give to them, since when is it merchants' duty to check the source of money? 514 billion USD was laundered through JP Morgan? Who got in trouble? Why didn't government got in trouble? What are they doing? They aren't doing their job, it's not a good job when billions of dollars are laundered in your country. Why aren't all the JP Morgan, US Treasury and FED staff in prisons? Why doesn't government staff get pushed for their mistakes?

Accepting funds that have been illegally obtained is illegal.

Billions were laundered through JP Morgan. Should merchants accept payments done via that bank?

Relying on 3rd parties is against everything Bitcoin represents in my opinion.  The exact opposite of self sovereignty.  

That's a good point but we still and probably will rely forever on developers, miners, node runners and so on.

[1714228937]

1714228937

[1714228937]

1714228937

[BlackHatCoiner]

You still didn't answer my question...  You think vendors appreciate you sending them obfuscated funds from a known money laundering operation?

Merchants cannot expect from their clients to do blockchain analysis. To me, that understands to neither appreciate, nor disregard. Simply, neutral. Be it ChipMixer chips, Samurai whirlpool coinjoins, coinbase rewards; they all are acceptable, otherwise Bitcoin falls apart as currency.

Maybe I shall repeat it once more, just in case you think I haven't answered for the 4th time: I don't feel it harms the vendors.

Using a private protocol doesn't amount to money laundering just because it's private.  Isn't that your whole argument for mixers in the first place?

Blame me for not have drunk coffee yet, but what do you mean by "doesn't amount to money laundering"? Just because Monero is private by the protocol, it does not mean you cannot launder money. Anyone using it can be subjected of being part of a pool with large anonymity set, just as with mixers.

Purposely laundering the funds and having them sent to vendors is quite different from someone not knowing where their funds came from and spending them.

In a court of law this would be the difference between unintentional ignorance and intentionally obfuscating their source, which is illegal.

Two questions:

- Why is a mixer user considered purposely laundering funds but a Monero user not?
- Why is a mixer user considered intentionally obfuscating the coin source but a Monero user not?

(BTW, I completely disagree that a mixer user is absolutely some sort of evil prick that is purposely laundering funds.)

That removes the "intentionally obfuscating their source" by users, which is what makes using mixers money laundering.  This isn't fantasy, it's reality.

No, it is fantasy; an unreasonable piece of mind. Using Monero or mixing decentrally (e.g., Joinmarket) should be rightly considered a very intentional action of obfuscation the source.

I don't even understand why you're against making a private protocol instead of relying 3rd parties.  Just so you can get paid to spam here?  Relying on 3rd parties is against everything Bitcoin represents in my opinion.  The exact opposite of self sovereignty.  

I'm all in for a private protocol, and that's why I recommend and use Monero and coinjoin. However, I do believe that someone might want to use a mixer for the pricing or the comfort that comes with it, as I have used them for the same reasons in the past.

By the way, 7TB can be a speculation to frighten people and make them believe that no mixer follows its no-log promise and they are all dangerous. Makes sense, right? But no one knows the truth.

And since no one knows the truth, the safest approach is to not engage in bareless speculation.

[Woodie]

Theymos why don't you ban casino signature campaigns too? These signature campaigns are the cancer of this forum, 90% of "writers", specially in Meta and Gambling, are just here for the signature money, yamming and creating drama, writing about nothing, bashing others so they can meet their signature quota.

Unfortunately Not a valid reason buddy...

Besides banning casino signature campaigns is like saying gambling service providers aren't welcome here, and the fact that they have existed for so many years in this space tells you they play by the book and are pretty much in a regulated industry which gives them immunity to keep operating without the need of inviting law enforcement and shouldn't worry anyone...

Let this forum die in it's natural death, it is time to acknowledge it as part of history, archive it if it dies and move on.

Clearly your intentions are bad, if you are tired of this place you can easily take a break from it and no one will bother you nor do you owe anybody an explanation for leaving ...but wanting to take the forum down with you is selfishness at its best!!!!

Long live Bitcointalk!!

Otherwise mi*er days are numbered here on BCT and it was nice being part of this short lived journey of them.

[JollyGood]

I think we have discussed the issue and most of us understand why mixers will be banned and have already moved on. For example, campaign managers have made adjustments and moved on by planning for a post-mixers forum. Just another few days remaining before the ban therefore if the thread will not be locked I hope most of the off-topic debates and comments will disappear over time.

[Shishir99]

So, You opened a new account to write this. I'm interested in whose signature you wear on your main account...

I could give you a 99% guarantee that he is one of the mixer signature campaign participants who get angry because of the decision. But he is afraid to say something from his main account. But, I assume either he could be a full member who is relatively new to this community or maybe high ranked member who does not really know much about the community. He is afraid of theymos and this is why he has created the new account just to post this. He thought theymos could ban him because of that. But, I am glad that theymos didn't even cared when Vod left him a negative tag. That's how freedom of speech has been there. I hope it will continues.....

[EarnOnVictor]

Theymos why don't you ban casino signature campaigns too? These signature campaigns are the cancer of this forum, 90% of "writers", specially in Meta and Gambling, are just here for the signature money, yamming and creating drama, writing about nothing, bashing others so they can meet their signature quota.

 They are no different from poor shitposters from third world countries, just have better grammar and write more elaborate.

There is no innovation, there is no new influx of quality discussions, just people trying to earn money and drain as much BTC from this forum as possible.

Let this forum die in it's natural death, it is time to acknowledge it as part of history, archive it if it dies and move on.

I don't believe a human being just wrote this, can you hear yourself? Maybe you should read, rewind, replay and rewind to again replay. What you just spat out is arrogant nonsense. What is the fault of casinos? Have they offended anyone that warrants that? Are there no good posters posting and campaigning for casinos? Well, I know your type, you just want everything to scatter because your way failed, and you like to use your alts to spit out this nonsense to cover your shame.

You are actually requesting for the opposite of the reason why the signature campaign comes in in the first place and I think you have already lost. Your allegations and points are all baseless, and not even worth a single thought.

[virasog]

So, You opened a new account to write this. I'm interested in whose signature you wear on your main account...

I could give you a 99% guarantee that he is one of the mixer signature campaign participants who get angry because of the decision. But he is afraid to say something from his main account. But, I assume either he could be a full member who is relatively new to this community or maybe high ranked member who does not really know much about the community. He is afraid of theymos and this is why he has created the new account just to post this. He thought theymos could ban him because of that. But, I am glad that theymos didn't even cared when Vod left him a negative tag. That's how freedom of speech has been there. I hope it will continues.....

Theymos won't never ban even if he posted that from his main account. Even I am sure that no DT member will tag him too but people are too much afraid to write something like that from their main account because they do not have such courage. By the way, if you see his text, it clearly states his own frustration and nothing else. I would call such people as "Losers".

Coming back to the OP topic, just a few days left for the mixers discussions and advertising, after that it will just be an history 

[DaNNy001]

I think we have discussed the issue and most of us understand why mixers will be banned and have already moved on.For exampled, campaign managers have made adjustments and moved on by planning for a post-mixers forum. Just another few days remaining before the ban therefore if the thread will not be locked I hope most of the off-topic debates and comments will disappear over time.

That's very correct mate and I don't know what still all the fuse about because swapping and reconstructing of campaigns have been going and moreover they have already decided there will be a place for the restricted service here on Bitcointalk and all the possible information has been passed for anyone who deem fit to advertise these services and a possible place you can actually render your qualities as a good poster and promote these services. Am even surprised whenever I come to meta board and still find this thread very much active when I read something about thymos possibly banning account or users that will make mention or wear the signature of these services after the deadline.

[JollyGood]

Surprisingly enough, after the ban announcement was made some mixer campaigns indicated they would continue their campaigns until the last day before the ban started but then decided to leave the forum altogether much sooner. One raised their payout with much fanfare to $10 per post but then removed most participants and now have just a handful.

That's very correct mate and I don't know what still all the fuse about because swapping and reconstructing of campaigns have been going and moreover they have already decided there will be a place for the restricted service here on Bitcointalk and all the possible information has been passed for anyone who deem fit to advertise these services and a possible place you can actually render your qualities as a good poster and promote these services. Am even surprised whenever I come to meta board and still find this thread very much active when I read something about thymos possibly banning account or users that will make mention or wear the signature of these services after the deadline.

[philipma1957]

You still didn't answer my question...  You think vendors appreciate you sending them obfuscated funds from a known money laundering operation?

Merchants cannot expect from their clients to do blockchain analysis. To me, that understands to neither appreciate, nor disregard. Simply, neutral. Be it ChipMixer chips, Samurai whirlpool coinjoins, coinbase rewards; they all are acceptable, otherwise Bitcoin falls apart as currency.

Maybe I shall repeat it once more, just in case you think I haven't answered for the 4th time: I don't feel it harms the vendors.

Using a private protocol doesn't amount to money laundering just because it's private.  Isn't that your whole argument for mixers in the first place?

Blame me for not have drunk coffee yet, but what do you mean by "doesn't amount to money laundering"? Just because Monero is private by the protocol, it does not mean you cannot launder money. Anyone using it can be subjected of being part of a pool with large anonymity set, just as with mixers.

Purposely laundering the funds and having them sent to vendors is quite different from someone not knowing where their funds came from and spending them.

In a court of law this would be the difference between unintentional ignorance and intentionally obfuscating their source, which is illegal.

Two questions:

- Why is a mixer user considered purposely laundering funds but a Monero user not?
- Why is a mixer user considered intentionally obfuscating the coin source but a Monero user not?

(BTW, I completely disagree that a mixer user is absolutely some sort of evil prick that is purposely laundering funds.)

That removes the "intentionally obfuscating their source" by users, which is what makes using mixers money laundering.  This isn't fantasy, it's reality.

No, it is fantasy; an unreasonable piece of mind. Using Monero or mixing decentrally (e.g., Joinmarket) should be rightly considered a very intentional action of obfuscation the source.

I don't even understand why you're against making a private protocol instead of relying 3rd parties.  Just so you can get paid to spam here?  Relying on 3rd parties is against everything Bitcoin represents in my opinion.  The exact opposite of self sovereignty.  

I'm all in for a private protocol, and that's why I recommend and use Monero and coinjoin. However, I do believe that someone might want to use a mixer for the pricing or the comfort that comes with it, as I have used them for the same reasons in the past.

By the way, 7TB can be a speculation to frighten people and make them believe that no mixer follows its no-log promise and they are all dangerous. Makes sense, right? But no one knows the truth.

And since no one knows the truth, the safest approach is to not engage in bareless speculation.

If I mine monero at a daily profit I am not money laundering.

Above is a Very solid argument which would stand up in USA tax courts.

If I mine monero at a loss and hodl it speculatively I could likely do it for 3 years before I have a tax issue and not money laundering but I would be forced to say it is a hobby.

Also very solid argument that stands up in US tax court.

If I put coins in to a mixer in order to not be money laundering I need proof of full kyc .
I need proof of how I got the coins with good documentation.

I run the risk of my fairly or truly coins being tainted by hacker coins.

So yeah a monero miner is cleaner
than a btc miner trying to hide just how big his stash is using a mixer.

all based on my general us tax law knowledge.

None of the above should be taken as factual as I am not a tax lawyer or a lawyer of any kind.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If I mine monero at a daily profit I am not money laundering.

Nor do I when using mixers.

If I mine monero at a loss and hodl it speculatively I could likely do it for 3 years before I have a tax issue and not money laundering but I would be forced to say it is a hobby.

I'm not in the USA, and I don't know how taxation works there. I suppose you report profit when selling coins? You make it sound as if the taxman will do blockchain analysis to tell whether your coins originate from illegal activity.

If I put coins in to a mixer in order to not be money laundering I need proof of full kyc

Unless you are not registered to a centralized exchange which imposes this policy. In my place, I use decentralized exchange when buying and selling. Again, I don't know how things work in the USA. Judging by the numerous malicious legislation presented by the FinCEN like this one, it wouldn't surprise me if exchanging decentrally can be considered money laundering.

[philipma1957]

If I mine monero at a daily profit I am not money laundering.

Nor do I when using mixers.

If I mine monero at a loss and hodl it speculatively I could likely do it for 3 years before I have a tax issue and not money laundering but I would be forced to say it is a hobby.

I'm not in the USA, and I don't know how taxation works there. I suppose you report profit when selling coins? You make it sound as if the taxman will do blockchain analysis to tell whether your coins originate from illegal activity.

If I put coins in to a mixer in order to not be money laundering I need proof of full kyc

Unless you are not registered to a centralized exchange which imposes this policy. In my place, I use decentralized exchange when buying and selling. Again, I don't know how things work in the USA. Judging by the numerous malicious legislation presented by the FinCEN like this one, it wouldn't surprise me if exchanging decentrally can be considered money laundering.

Oh USA law is so fucked up complex , layered and contradictory it is amazing.

And theymos lives in USA (maybe) the forum is USA based (true) and like it or not he simply does not want the hassle for the forum from the Gov.

So asking theymos to do mixers would likely mean asking him to relocate to a far more liberal tax country. Just to run the forum. That may not be realistic at all for him.

[NotATether]

Oh USA law is so fucked up complex , layered and contradictory it is amazing.

And theymos lives in USA (maybe) the forum is USA based (true) and like it or not he simply does not want the hassle for the forum from the Gov.

So asking theymos to do mixers would likely mean asking him to relocate to a far more liberal tax country. Just to run the forum. That may not be realistic at all for him.

At least USA law has the everlasting first amendment, and now that BitMixList (dot org) is back online, I expect it to be a useful resource for bitcointalkers beyond January 1st.

[philipma1957]

Oh USA law is so fucked up complex , layered and contradictory it is amazing.

And theymos lives in USA (maybe) the forum is USA based (true) and like it or not he simply does not want the hassle for the forum from the Gov.

So asking theymos to do mixers would likely mean asking him to relocate to a far more liberal tax country. Just to run the forum. That may not be realistic at all for him.

At least USA law has the everlasting first amendment, and now that BitMixList (dot org) is back online, I expect it to be a useful resource for bitcointalkers beyond January 1st.

Yeah I can say fuck you Trump or fuck you Biden. I don’t fear for my life by saying that.

Many countries you can’t say fuck you about the king or boss .

[cryptosize]

Oh USA law is so fucked up complex , layered and contradictory it is amazing.

And theymos lives in USA (maybe) the forum is USA based (true) and like it or not he simply does not want the hassle for the forum from the Gov.

So asking theymos to do mixers would likely mean asking him to relocate to a far more liberal tax country. Just to run the forum. That may not be realistic at all for him.

At least USA law has the everlasting first amendment, and now that BitMixList (dot org) is back online, I expect it to be a useful resource for bitcointalkers beyond January 1st.

Yeah I can say fuck you Trump or fuck you Biden. I don’t fear for my life by saying that.

Many countries you can’t say fuck you about the king or boss .

That's because Biden isn't the real boss, unless you really think an old guy with dementia runs the country and not the deep state.

[Shishir99]

Theymos won't never ban even if he posted that from his main account. Even I am sure that no DT member will tag him too but people are too much afraid to write something like that from their main account because they do not have such courage. By the way, if you see his text, it clearly states his own frustration and nothing else. I would call such people as "Losers".

That is what I wanted to point out as well. I don't remember seeing anyone getting banned for talking against anyone. An argument cannot lead you banned. Even if someone is a proven troll, they get the pass too saying that everyone has freedom of speech. I know no one will tag them. But I was talking about theymos. Recently he got a tag from Vod but the dude did not react.

Coming back to the OP topic, just a few days left for the mixers discussions and advertising, after that it will just be an history 

Never mind. It was done to save the forum (According to them). Mixers have been moved to another forum already. Hope they will find some other market to continue branding their business.

[darkwebdeveloper]

In the discourse surrounding the impending ban on mixers on Bitcointalk.org, multiple viewpoints regarding the complexities of U.S. laws, concerns about forum administration, and the impact of this policy change were discussed. How do these opinions reflect the broader sentiments within the cryptocurrency community regarding regulatory measures and their influence on platforms promoting anonymity and privacy?

[Bender Bending Rodriguez]

Leaving aside the internal economic problems associated with signature campaigns, I'd like to point out that mixers are destined to disappear in the future, to be replaced by non-custodial coinjoin wallets.

(Source: myself, I come from the year 3030)

[BossJumong]

@Theymos, if this one is really implemented on January 1st, hopefully, we can bring back the "Advertise in this forum" feature. But, of course, promoting mixers is not allowed.

The feature what I'm talking about: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5407725.0;all

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Oh USA law is so fucked up complex , layered and contradictory it is amazing.

So asking theymos to do mixers would likely mean asking him to relocate to a far more liberal tax country. Just to run the forum. That may not be realistic at all for him.

You've got the first part right, 100%.  I just saw a woman who was quite obviously in her 50s-60s get denied cigarettes at a gas station because she couldn't produce an ID.  That's an example of law coming into direct conflict with common sense, and it's idiotic.

And moving the forum to an offshore country in order to preserve mixer campaigns?  Yeah, there's no reason for that even if it were easy enough to do, which it isn't.