Mixers to be banned

[AB de Royse777]

Btw, do you still tell your clients that you have 65 positive feedbacks?

Is it better now? Everyone is discussing about mixer and Jambler but you want to discuss about the number of feedback I have.

What else do you want to discuss about? Why was I delaying but didn't agree with your offer to pay Sinbad due, why NotATether accepted my offer to rent his banner space, why am I not increasing payment on altcoinstalks. etc? Aren't there many other things you want to discuss and post openly (without tagging my name, leaving it unnoticed for me but it's about me) so that it looks like you are a great campaign manager, taller than I and some others? Mind your own business, I have many members to take lessons from but not you and your minions. Realize your own motives before understanding my motives.

Why are you angry? - For theymos to clarify that Jambler is a mixer

Which one is wrong?
- Continuing a forbidden business model on the forum
- Asking theymos to give a clarification
Which one from the above or both?

How are you doing? I hope all good.

I need a clarification about Jambler on bitcointalk. Mixers are ban but Jambler is still here. Are you aware that it's now a public fact that it's a mixer but instead of providing the mixing directly to the end user it is using different brands to mix the end users coins.

[...]

Man, black will not become white just because you call it that, just like Jambler will not cease to be a tool for creating a mixing business. Since 2018, Jambler has not changed the concept of its business, and has never provided services to ordinary users who want to mix bitcoins.

There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin.

It just happen without any prior plan. I saw your post and shared the link with the other manager. We laughed. He said maybe time to message theymos and ask by pointing your post. I said I am also thinking the same. Both of us messaged theymos and then we read this update. I am sure none of us asked for a ban but to give us a clarification.

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[The Sceptical Chymist]

Oh wow.  I haven't been following any of this, and thus I'm reading about it for the first time.  Call me an idiot (at least tech-wise), but when I looked at Jambler's description a while back I didn't pick up on anything that made it look like a mixer.  Then again, I did not look too closely under the hood, so to speak.  Yeesh.

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next.

On the forum or in the real world by governments?  The latter is already happening, but I think there's a big difference between non-KYC exchanges and mixers, though I have no doubt there's a huge debate that could be had about that.  I understand Theymos's position and his concerns, but I do hope he doesn't pre-emptively ban advertisement/discussion of a lot of other things for fear of the government's microscope.

[holydarkness]

[...]

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.

So, does Jambler function like Wasabi wallet?[...]

Actually, what I talked about and tried to propose is that if the initial purpose of mixers banning from the forum is to protect the forum [as a whole] from being stamped as [for the lack of better words] accesories-to-criminal-activities due to repetitive money laundering incidents done through several mixer platforms, then banning Jambler is not necessary, since they perform blockchain analysis prior to accepting the fund and will return the "deposit" back to the originating wallet if the score [I used the word "tainted" here, though it probably not the best word to use] is negative, i.e. their origin is questionable.

In other words, I initially assume, SOP-wise it is quite safe to say they can not be used as a money laundering platform, so the initial concern that lead to the decision to ban mixers is not needed on Jambler, nor to put them on the same category. But explanation from BlackHatCoiner, that it is still possible to launder bitcoin through the partners of Jambler made me have to re-think it deeper and consider if I stand corrected.

In five words or less: I was talking about procedure.

Thus, procedure-wise, whether it function like Wasabi or not? I don't think so too. They don't have the same SOP, and working on the completely different protocol.

[FatFork]

There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin.

It just happen without any prior plan. I saw your post and shared the link with the other manager. We laughed. He said maybe time to message theymos and ask by pointing your post. I said I am also thinking the same. Both of us messaged theymos and then we read this update. I am sure none of us asked for a ban but to give us a clarification.

I doubt you can play the ignorance card here. You were fully aware of the potential consequences of your actions, and I can only assume that getting Jambler banned was your main motive. (Honestly, what else could it be?) You wanted to stir the pot, get a reaction, and ultimately end a valuable campaign on the forum. Well, congratulations! You can do the victory dance now. I'm sure the campaign's dedicated members, all good contributors to this community by the way, will thank you for that.

But at least take some responsibility instead of this pathetic attempt to deflect blame.

[Synchronice]

then banning Jambler is not necessary, since they perform blockchain analysis prior to accepting the fund and will return the "deposit" back to the originating wallet if the score [I used the word "tainted" here, though it probably not the best word to use] is negative, i.e. their origin is questionable.

They perform blockchain analysis on funds that they receive from sellers, aka investors. So, if you want to invest in [banned mixer] and earn some profit, your deposited coins will undergo blockchain analysis to ensure that coins are clean. This doesn't mean that Jambler performs the analysis of coins that customers deposit on its partner mixers. You can check their FAQ and the FAQ of their partners, it's never said that coins that get deposited for mixer purposes ever undergo a blockchain analysis.

Thus, procedure-wise, whether it function like Wasabi or not? I don't think so too. They don't have the same SOP, and working on the completely different protocol.

Wasabi wallet performs blockchain analysis, that's why I asked this question but Jumbler doesn't performs that. By the way, performing of blockchain analysis destroys the privacy and the whole point of mixing and coinjoin.

[Sandra_hakeem]

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next.

That's obviously where we're going... I've observed that Theymos have made several irrevocable decisions without remorse and this, is just another one.
We, Bitcoin entirely didn't come this far just to amend the system in a way they could inject thier spywares to surreptitiously monitor people's asset. So the worst is about to happen!! Let's have it.

They don't necessarily announce that the upgrade is due to BTT but to make their system more "decentralized."

Is that a problem right now? Haaa!

[worldofcoins]

From what I understand....without being in favor of anyone.
Royse contacted theymos asking to look into Jambler, theymos did it and banned the site on the forum. And royse asked one more manager to look into it and I don't want to get trolled so I am not trying to guess who it was and it doesn't matter.

Icopress lost a campaign that was dear to him/her and is trying to see if it's possible to save Jambler on the forum (it would be hard to do so)

My take on Jambler:

If you take a look at the diagram of Jambler then you'll clearly see. (It's classified as a Mixer, In short it seems Partner Mixer is acting as someone who's referring the mixing clients to Jambler's mixer to get a percentage of commission.)
2* Letter of Guarantee is issued by the Jambler themselves.
3* & 4* Jambler is responsible for sending and receiving the coins from the Customer, and Partner MIXER doesn't even hold the funds.


I don't think theymos will ban icopress since the Jambler was under the radar as to how it works and no one took a close enough look like Royse did (For some reason he thought he had to)

I think many will blame Royse for that and the other campaign manager, who is anonymous atm.

That's all I have to say for now.

Peace~

[Poker Player]

I think many will blame Royse for that and the other campaign manager, who is anonymous atm.

No, I don't think it's that anonymous and I don't think people will blame that other campaign manager. If I had to bet on someone I would bet on my current campaign manager Little Mouse, as it is widely known that Royse777 and him are friends, and when Royse777 talks about "the" other campaign manager I think it is clear who he is talking about.

But I doubt that many people will blame him, since at least in public he keeps away from any controversy. I don't remember him intervening when I had big arguments with Royse777 neither in icopress or Gazeta vs Royse, or in other controversies.

[icopress]

If you take a look at the diagram of Jambler then you'll clearly see. (It's classified as a Mixer)
2* Letter of Guarantee is issued by the Jambler themselves.
3* & 4* Jambler is responsible for sending and receiving the coins from the Customer, and Partner MIXER doesn't even hold the funds.

In 2018, Jambler created a full-cycle software and sells its software to those who want to have a mixing business. And if you type “mix bitcoins” into Google and somehow end up on their website, you will not be able to make a mix as an ordinary user. You will need to deploy an affiliate node, which is 99.9% likely to deploy only if you want to become a real partner of the jumbler.

Not to mention that Jambler did not change the concept of its business for 6 years (even after censorship was launched on January 1). And the letters of guarantee that you mentioned are an integral part of their automated processes, and are designed to provide users with reliable information that the software that partners use is valid.

[mindrust]

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next.

That's obviously where we're going... I've observed that Theymos have made several irrevocable decisions without remorse and this, is just another one.
We, Bitcoin entirely didn't come this far just to amend the system in a way they could inject thier spywares to surreptitiously monitor people's asset. So the worst is about to happen!! Let's have it.

Enforced KYC on the exchanges
No meaningful DEX other than bisq which has near zero activity
Mixers shutting down and getting banned
Even the crypto only casinos added KYC in their ToS which is weird (like some government suit contacted them all)

Soon we'll have to enter our National ID number every time we go online.



The only way to get out of this mess is mass cooperation and it ain't happening.

Here are the 2 main problems have:

1- We all connect to a domain which the government provides. (Nobody's using .onion domains, maybe it is time to go underground eh?)
2- No business can survive without paying their taxes

They own the infrastructure, they own the businesses.

Nowhere to hide.

[Poker Player]

Soon we'll have to enter our National ID number every time we go online.

I remember years ago there was an EU project to require every user to identify themselves to access online social networks that could include forums, and theymos said something like that he was not going to pay any attention if a "Bolshevik" EU requirement came for that. In view of what's happened recently, I am not so sure what he would do now if such a requirement came, especially from the USA.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Wasabi wallet performs blockchain analysis, that's why I asked this question but Jumbler doesn't performs that.

Both perform blockchain analysis. The difference is that Wasabi performs and funds blockchain analysis for "the sake of the children", whereas Jambler does it to ensure the investors won't cheat and earn from their investments.

[OgNasty]

The community was misguided to believe that they are not a mixer. Many members knew about it but it was not discussed publicly.

I discussed it publicly.  Granted, I was attacked for it the same way I was attacked when I told people ChipMixer was about to be shut down, but people here love to shoot the messenger.  However, Ogstradamus remains undefeated.  Sort of makes you wonder if the rest of the stuff I say that people immediately try to dismiss is worth taking a closer look at...  Probably not.  The Default Trust network is just fine...  I wonder if tackling extortion is on the to-do list now that money laundering appears to be taken care of.

[mindrust]

As if we haven't had enough of the century lasting OG&Vod fight, now we will have to read Ico&R7 fight on every god daym topic.

https://youtu.be/i4HMsbcSV80?t=19

[AB de Royse777]

There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin.

It just happen without any prior plan. I saw your post and shared the link with the other manager. We laughed. He said maybe time to message theymos and ask by pointing your post. I said I am also thinking the same. Both of us messaged theymos and then we read this update. I am sure none of us asked for a ban but to give us a clarification.

I doubt you can play the ignorance card here. You were fully aware of the potential consequences of your actions, and I can only assume that getting Jambler banned was your main motive. (Honestly, what else could it be?) You wanted to stir the pot, get a reaction, and ultimately end a valuable campaign on the forum. Well, congratulations! You can do the victory dance now. I'm sure the campaign's dedicated members, all good contributors to this community by the way, will thank you for that.

But at least take some responsibility instead of this pathetic attempt to deflect blame.

You don't surprise me

I did not want to be insulted and be trolled in case theymos had a different thinking that he has no problem with mixer working in different condition.

But apparently I am surprised that for some minions there is always a way for trolling, even it was clarified by theymos that we can not advertise Jambler type mixers too. If it was allowed then you would see some more mixers with new branding (new name and cosmetic change) showing up in the forum. Umblar, Mumblar, meblar etc.

[notblox1]

Nice to see that personal vendettas are ruining decentralization for us all.

If this isnt campaign manager war declaration than I dont know what is, and you know this is not going to end up good for anyone

I dont think that Jambler is a mixer but admin already made up his mind and it is done business.
When I see members who joined together to talk with theymos it makes me puke  

[examplens]

Wasabi wallet performs blockchain analysis, that's why I asked this question but Jumbler doesn't performs that.

Both perform blockchain analysis. The difference is that Wasabi performs and funds blockchain analysis for "the sake of the children", whereas Jambler does it to ensure the investors won't cheat and earn from their investments.

I'm wondering. The analysis that triggered this theymos decision could have looked quite different. If Jambler there was presented primarily as an investment platform, would that make him suitable for a forum in addition to being a secondary activity of mixing Bitcoins?

I still maintain that the mixer ban is a long-term bad decision for the forum.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If Jambler there was presented primarily as an investment platform, would that make him suitable for a forum in addition to being a secondary activity of mixing Bitcoins?

Jambler is presented primarily as an investment platform already. And I don't think it would be appropriate to play a cat-and-mouse game with the admin. If he doesn't like something, the forum is his. Be it mixers, investment platforms, or perhaps decentralized protocols which I predict is the next target if his actions are highly influenced by state actors.

[logfiles]

Soon we'll have to enter our National ID number every time we go online.

I remember years ago there was an EU project to require every user to identify themselves to access online social networks that could include forums, and theymos said something like that he was not going to pay any attention if a "Bolshevik" EU requirement came for that. In view of what's happened recently, I am not so sure what he would do now if such a requirement came, especially from the USA.

A good example is those platforms under Meta group, specifically Facebook and Instagram. Back in the day, when you took long without logging in and then one time you decided to log in or even tried to change a password. It was as simple as sending a verification code to your email. Not any more today, you will sometimes be asked for your National ID or video selfie or something along those lines to just get your password reset 

A pathetic era we live in.

[philipma1957]

Jambler "has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property"

Strictly speaking, it doesn't. Jambler doesn't act as a mixer, in and of itself. For partners, yes, it takes property, and yes it might return roughly the same plus a profit, but it nowhere says that it improves their privacy. The point of being a partner is to earn profit.

I could go on, but I don't think it matters, because it seems that you've made your choice. You could slightly change the criteria in the OP and it'd be rightly considered a mixer. You can't beat the admin.

you need to look at it in terms of US Law. Bitcointalk and theymos is subject to US Law.  


Jambler aids and abets a mixer = fact

if bitcointalk aids and abets Jambler they could be charged with US federal law violations.

Best case I can explain it with is this article

 https://www.hrw.org/report/2013/12/05/offer-you-cant-refuse/how-us-federal-prosecutors-force-drug-defendants-plead


it is about federal crimes mostly drugs ,but read the techniques the government used against people.

Theymos does not want any part of this.

I can't say that I blame him in the least.

@logfiles (good name) yep we are living in 1984 pretty much.


What I like is :
all audio
all images
all video
can be Ai'd should be considered Ai'd and not 'real'

A great way to live is it not.

Matrix coming up soon.