Mixer restrictions

[JollyGood]

I have no intention of defending Chipmixer (and anyway I have already stated I cannot recall the full story relating to them being shutdown by governmental agencies) but I do dispute your narrative that Chipmixer was created for the specific intention of stealing coins from customers.

If coins went missing (or were confiscated by authorities) because of negligent conduct by the owner/operator, then how can that be cited as the Chipmixer owner scamming customers?

Were there ever any cases of selective scamming or embezzlement made against Chipmixer in the years it was operating? If there were, how remained unresolved? As I have already stated, I am not defending Chipmixer but I am disputing your claim against it.

You are wrong, Chipmixer specifically intended to steal coins from those that used their services.

[Justbillywitt]

You really think? 

Can you really vision bitcointalk seized because a few mixers were running signature campaigns here? Really?

Up to this day I still think theymos did something that wasn't really necessary. No one was going to shutdown bitcointalk because NinjaMixer was running an ANN here, talking about their maintenance.

We wouldn’t be so sure that nothing would have happened to the forum. For me it was the right decision that was taken by Theymos. I understand that are no decisions taken anywhere that sits well with everyone that such decisions will affect in one way or the another. But when you are a leader, there are tough decisions you have to take at times without seeking for public opinions, provided it is for the general good for all. The most important thing is that we still have the forum today. But the honest truth is that we don’t know what would have happened without that decision.

[JayJuanGee]

You really think? 

Can you really vision bitcointalk seized because a few mixers were running signature campaigns here? Really?

Up to this day I still think theymos did something that wasn't really necessary. No one was going to shutdown bitcointalk because NinjaMixer was running an ANN here, talking about their maintenance.

We wouldn’t be so sure that nothing would have happened to the forum. For me it was the right decision that was taken by Theymos. I understand that are no decisions taken anywhere that sits well with everyone that such decisions will affect in one way or the another. But when you are a leader, there are tough decisions you have to take at times without seeking for public opinions, provided it is for the general good for all. The most important thing is that we still have the forum today. But the honest truth is that we don’t know what would have happened without that decision.

There is nothing wrong with criticizing theymos and/or his decision, yet for sure, he had some of his own personal consequences that could happen, beyond merely the status of the forum and whether the forum might have had become either a legal target and/or had to go through some extra scrutiny - and so in the end, you @Justbillywitt, seem to be suggesting that it is difficult to prove a negative in terms of what would have happened or what could have had happened if theymos had taken a different approach from the one that he had chosen to take, and of course, there seems to have had been selective prosecution and even a lot of injustices in the world (that are ongoing), whether we are referring to Samuari or other entities (individuals) who had been targeted for their having had been involved in bitcoin and/or even having had been involved in the promotion of bitcoin freedoms/privacy.

[PrivacyG]

Can you really vision bitcointalk seized because a few mixers were running signature campaigns here? Really?

Did you forget how Mixers were portrayed at the time theymos took this decision?  I can remember this decision was in the heat of the moment when arrows were flying all around to any thing Privacy related, from Coin Joins to Mixers, Monero, Lightning and what ever else.  Hell.  I can not remember if it was the same year or the next but I remember authorities of one European country even made a Bitcoin Talk account to publicly announce that they seized what ever domain that was.

I actually do believe things would have looked different if some people or companies did not have legal consequences at the time, if theymos never banned Mixers, if Wasabi never bent the knee and accepted the new 'anti crime' rules et cetera.  That was a very dubious period of time where a lot of things changed really fast and I believe things would have been very different if every body stood like steel on their position and tried to fight back.  Although I am more pessimist about things and I believe we have only been given a 'time out' until arrows eventually start flying once again.

-----

What do you think could happen next?
The now popular no KYC instant exchanges getting banned because a few have been sanctioned and seized here and there just because some "hackers from North Korean and Iran" used them to launder some money?

Honestly a part of me feels this might happen in the future if we are to go by the same standards as what happened to the Bitcoin mixers but I hope we don't come to that.

While I am totally against Mixer bans and no Know Your Customer platform bans, we are currently living in the kind of World where that would not surprise me at all.  In fact.  It is kind of predictable already that this is the rather near future.  All these years I kept saying over and over again that we are heading to a World where what we can do now, the Freedom we like to have now will only be possible in the under grounds of the Internet.  I can imagine Bitcoin being used with 'ID linked Addresses' mainly by people who 'have no thing to hide' and Monero becoming the 'underground Bitcoin' mainly used by people like you and me.

We are already more than half way there any way.  People are stressing out about where their Bitcoin comes from, wondering if they will have to explain why, where from and how.  They are already using Bitcoin in such a way that their transactions can be linked to their ID, considering they are giving mug shots to platforms only so they can deposit or withdraw their Bitcoin.  I see people avoiding Mixers and Coin Joins because 'the Output will probably have a high Anti Money Laundering score'.  I would say it is already happening, we are only used to it already..

I actually do believe this is the future, although I would be unimaginably happy if I end up being proved wrong.

How long do you realistically believe no Know Your Customer platforms will be allowed?  Some of them say no jurisdiction applies to them because they are legally 'nowhere'.  This part of the industry is going to become more and more gray, particularly with all the new regulations that nowadays ALWAYS seem to come together with a new set of 'Anti Money Laundering' and 'Know Your Customer' updates.

You have platforms that do not 'bend the knee' but also do not pay any taxes, do not report any thing to any body, not even multi Million Dollar transactions.  Do you think this will go on for ever?

------

Nobody should bend the knee to these people. This is the whole point of having a free speech forum.

It is true.  The hard truth is however that almost every body will bend the knee to these people and pretty much no body would care if tomorrow we do not have a free speech Forum any more.  And in times such as right now, free speech is limited to what ever the boundaries of free speech of today should be.

[examplens]

Can you really vision bitcointalk seized because a few mixers were running signature campaigns here? Really?

Did you forget how Mixers were portrayed at the time theymos took this decision?  I can remember this decision was in the heat of the moment when arrows were flying all around to any thing Privacy related, from Coin Joins to Mixers, Monero, Lightning and what ever else.  Hell.  I can not remember if it was the same year or the next but I remember authorities of one European country even made a Bitcoin Talk account to publicly announce that they seized what ever domain that was.

If I remember correctly, the Sinbad mixer was confiscated in November/December.
Since January, the mixer ban has been activated here. Soon after that, over the next 4-5 months the persecution of related services began, and I think the most radical was the closing of Samurai wallet and the arrest of the developer. A process against the Tornadocash developer followed this and everything caused a wave of withdrawals of the coinjoin function. Wasabi Wallet, Trezor suite, btcpay...
At that moment, theymos's decision to ban mixers seemed very wise.

[NotATether]

How long do you realistically believe no Know Your Customer platforms will be allowed?

That is where I draw the line. I won't sleepwalk into 1984.

[bitmover]

Did you forget how Mixers were portrayed at the time theymos took this decision?  I can remember this decision was in the heat of the moment when arrows were flying all around to any thing Privacy related, from Coin Joins to Mixers, Monero, Lightning and what ever else.  Hell.  I can not remember if it was the same year or the next but I remember authorities of one European country even made a Bitcoin Talk account to publicly announce that they seized what ever domain that was.

If I remember correctly, the Sinbad mixer was confiscated in November/December.
Since January, the mixer ban has been activated here. Soon after that, over the next 4-5 months the persecution of related services began, and I think the most radical was the closing of Samurai wallet and the arrest of the developer. A process against the Tornadocash developer followed this and everything caused a wave of withdrawals of the coinjoin function. Wasabi Wallet, Trezor suite, btcpay...
At that moment, theymos's decision to ban mixers seemed very wise.

I dont think bitcointalk was going to be seized.
And I dont think this is the point .

Bitcointalk could investigated, fined , sued whatever which i think is not worth the headache.

Bitcointalk has a very strong historical value, and its reputation is also associated to bitcoin iitself.

Most mixers when banned went to darknet forums. We can see a lot of them seized or exit scams since 2023.

Maybe admin don't want to associate Bitcointalk to such services.

[dkbit98]

His claim that he "stole everyone's coins" isn't true. CM didn't take stole a single satoshi from me.

kruw is a liar and he twisted facts many times, so I simply ignore him.

Can you really vision bitcointalk seized because a few mixers were running signature campaigns here? Really?

Up to this day I still think theymos did something that wasn't really necessary. No one was going to shutdown bitcointalk because NinjaMixer was running an ANN here, talking about their maintenance.

I could agree with most of the things you said, but we don't know what was happening behind the scenes.
Theymos surely played it safe and wanted to avoid any confrontation and dealing with authorities because of some XYZ mixer.

[Kruw]

I doubt you can grasp something so simple, but if you read it several times, perhaps one day you will understand.

Why didn't you click on the link and read the quote from ChipMixer?...

@ChipMixer: What do you do if someone claims you have stolen Bitcoin from private key you have given. If it is a small amount, it may not have much impact because of the trust you have. But, what happens if it is a large amount? I hope you have already thought about it and have come up with a solution or is working on one! Good luck! By the way, I have sent you a PM! Please reply! Thanks!

Good question. Funds from cannot be stolen, unless you know private key. ChipMixer knows the key, you as a customer knows it and nobody else. Let's assume there was a hacker who somehow got the private key too.

How he got it?

Method 1. Eavesdropping

Customer visited http website? No, it redirects to https and you cannot start mixing with http.
Customer visited https and it was eavesdropped? No, https is encrypted, so private key will also be encrypted.
Customer visited .onion website? It is encrypted, so private key is also encrypted.
Customer visited MITM or forged copycat of ChipMixer? Attacker serves his address and does not give you any chips. Why risk that you will sweep them immediately?

Method 2. Hacking the server

Destroying the session deletes chip private key. In this case attacker would sweep hot wallet and active sessions. If for some reason you do not want to sweep everything instantly, there is no reason to sweep single private key of active session. This would only hurt ChipMixer reputation and that decreases your change for large loot.

This shows that single private key cannot be evesdropped, and hacking the server would result with much bigger mess.

Another group - ChipMixer. Stealing single chip hurts reputation. It is not worth to be little dishonest, when you pay much more for ads and sig campaigns.

Last group - Customer. Let's say you sweeped 1.024 BTC chip. You can write a post that somebody else sweeped it and you demand a refund. If you don't get a refund, you've lost nothing. If you get a refund, you've earned 1.024 BTC and nothing stops you from posting more complaints. Which is why ChipMixer will not refund.