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Author Topic: Is my plan legal? Managing the account of a dead person  (Read 324 times)
zasad@
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December 08, 2023, 03:33:01 PM
 #21

I think that the first problem is that in many countries the tax legislation for cryptocurrencies has not yet been formed and may change, so declaring cryptocurrencies has its own risks.

Could be, but OP mentioned he's from an EU country, and I imagine most of those would have crypto-related tax laws somewhat clarified by now. It could be easier if he just said which country is he from.

There is a risk that Bitcoin will cease to be the main coin and will give way to Ethereum.
Investing in only one coin for 10 years is also very risky. I would make an investment portfolio of 5-7 coins

There was a thread about this somewhere, and the historical data shows that holding just BTC for a long time yielded much better results than diversifying over the top 5 or top 10 coins. Of course there's no guarantee this will be true forever. I'm in favour of holding some ETH just in case of the "flippening", but holding too many coins is probably riskier than holding BTC only.
Anyhow, OP said he would be managing the funds even if they were in the formal custody of his mother in law, so he'd be able to take actions when/if weird things start happening.
I wouldn't look at old statistics. Bitcoin is the oldest coin and those who kept it from the very beginning made a big profit. But my advice is to consider buying several coins at least, such as Bitcoin and Ethereum. And Bitcoin may have a majority in this portfolio, for example 80%.

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WeThePe0ple (OP)
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December 08, 2023, 05:42:24 PM
Last edit: December 08, 2023, 06:22:14 PM by WeThePe0ple
 #22


For starters, in which European country are you going to be taxed every year without having sold the investment?

It literally says in the most recent article about taxation, that crypto profits are currently taxed at 33% or 50% depending on whether the government sees us as partial traders or full time traders. The terms for this are still vague. It also says that there is currently no taxation for holding BTC, but this is to be expected in the future. By the same token my own bank imposes a wealth tax for people who have more than 60k euros in the bank.

Quote

Cite those articles because you have misunderstood for sure. I would have to look at the laws specifically, but I would say that tax for unrealized gains is against European law.

I asked this on a judicial forum in the taxation segment. I asked if I was allowed to transfer my bitcoin holdings to a non EU family member to avoid heavy taxation. And that at that stage the coins are not withdrawn to a bank account.

She answered "Cashing out is not a requirement to have acquired the added value. Therefore you will have to pay taxes on this added value the moment you transfer the coins"

Here is a quote from the article about taxation at this point

Quote
Do you have to pay taxes on crypto coins?
Do you own crypto coins without converting them into cash, or do you use crypto for a purchase? Then you don't pay taxes on it in Belgium yet. If you make a profit from your crypto investments, there are 3 options.

Scenario 1: You're an amateur

If you invest in crypto according to the principles of 'good housekeeping', your digital investments are exempt from taxes. The tax authorities consider you an amateur. This is, for example, the case if:

you invest in crypto as a hobby
you make long-term investments – you buy coins and hold them for a long time
you take few risks - for example by spreading your investments and by not taking out loans to invest in crypto
Will your digital coins increase in value over time? Then you do not have to declare those increases in value. And you don't have to pay VAT on crypto transactions.

Please note: do you convert your crypto coins into cash in this scenario? Then you must declare the capital gain (the difference between the purchase price and the sales price) in your tax return in the 'Miscellaneous income' box and you pay 33 percent tax on it.

Scenario 2: you are a private trader

To the government you are considered a private trader if you:

take risks with your crypto investments
regularly buy and sell and respond to heavy price fluctuations
want to see a return on your investments in the short term.
In those cases, the government considers you as a private trader. You must then declare the crypto profits in your tax return as 'Miscellaneous income'. You pay 33 percent of that to the tax authorities.

Scenario 3: you are a professional trader

Is trading cryptocurrencies your (main) job? Then you must follow the rules that a sole proprietorship follows: you declare your crypto income in your personal income tax. The usual progressive tax rates apply to your annual net income, which fluctuate between 25 and 50 percent. A few examples:

For an income that is less than 12,990 euros per year: you give up 25 percent.
For an income from 39,660 euros per year: you give up half.
Please note: as a professional trader you must also meet the other obligations of a self-employed person: for example, joining a social insurance fund and paying social contributions.

With regards to amateurs, other articles mention that there is a limit at 25% of ones portfolio being invested in crypto. If it is higher, you will not be considered an amateur

Quote
What is the good housewife principle?
Anyone who invests in crypto coins is investing. When it comes to investments and taxes, it is important to first understand the good housewife principle.

The good housewife principle is a basic principle that applies to investments and investing in Belgium. This principle means that an investor must always exercise due care when making investment decisions.

The due diligence principle is unfortunately a vague concept and the Federal Public Service Finance will therefore look at all circumstances and facts to decide whether an investment has been made in accordance with the principle or not. The bottom line is that you need to prove that your investments are relatively risk-free. A typical strategy that fits within the principle is "buy and hold". You purchase digital coins and keep them in your possession for at least 1 year to make them profitable in the long term. In addition, the frequency, the number of transactions and the percentage of private assets that you have invested are also important. On average, 25% of your assets is taken as the limit. Finally, the tax authorities will also look at your professional activity.
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December 09, 2023, 01:48:37 PM
 #23

I understand your dilemma.
You invest 15,000 dollars now and in 10 years, let’s say your assets will be worth a million dollars.
if you want to sell them, you will pay capital gains tax of 33-50% on the amount of $985 thousand.
I see the maximum reasonable tax amount being no more than 20%.
The criminal is not you, but your state, which wants to steal a large share of your earnings, but for unknown reasons you continue to consider yourself a criminal.

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December 11, 2023, 08:36:04 PM
 #24

I don't think they'll tax holdings that bring you loss. I don't know the us, but here in Europe most countries would consider something like that to be unconstitutional.
They want to know how much you have to make you feel obliged to pay taxes so that they don't have to keep an eye on you the whole time, but I really doubt someone will tax your holdings 30%, not to mention losses.
Even if you think about how bitcoin works, it's impossible to tax holdings. Bitcoin never stays at the same level for a year and it never will. You will either have a profit to declare, or you'll have a loss. You can't be taxed for having a loss, so the worst possible scenario is if you get something like a 10% profit and will have to pay a 30% tax, but the tax will not be from the whole thing, but only from that 10%.

Quote
My 78 year old mother in law is a non EU citizen. We can let her go through KYC, deposit our 3 funds to her BTC address and manage it for her.
The tax hawks in my country will be shown that our accounts are empty. There is nothing for them to rob. I don't think we do anything illegal. We just donated to my mother in law who is outside of their jurisdiction.

In my country all politicians do that. Every year they have to make all their holdings, including crypto, public. It's funny when newspapers report that a guy who earns 10k EUR every month is declaring that he doesn't have a house or a car and has 5k EUR savings in the bank, but his wife owns a house and 2 cars and his 2 children won apartments in the capital Wink

Quote
Authorities in the country of my mother in law will not expect anything from her because there was never a deposit from any local bank to her BTC address.

I do wonder, if we wish to manage her account and cash out in 2035, if that requires her to be alive at that point (live camera footage, fingerprint..)
Or if we can do that P2P without any problems.

Does this make sense or am I missing something?

Yes you are. The fact that she's not directly related to you, so if you give her money, she has to pay tax. If I'm not mistaken only your wife can donate to her mother with no tax, but this depends on the country. Also, check what will happen if she dies because you would not want to find out that she has another child besides your wife that will inherit half of her bitcoin.

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December 11, 2023, 09:57:30 PM
Merited by zasad@ (1)
 #25

I asked this on a judicial forum in the taxation segment. I asked if I was allowed to transfer my bitcoin holdings to a non EU family member to avoid heavy taxation. And that at that stage the coins are not withdrawn to a bank account.

She answered "Cashing out is not a requirement to have acquired the added value. Therefore you will have to pay taxes on this added value the moment you transfer the coins"
(...)

This doesn't even make sense. Cashing out may not be a requirement, but I don't understand where's the "added value" here. You're not gaining anything. Will YOU be required to pay tax if e.g. you gave your car to a family member?

I wouldn't rely on any advice you get from any forum and just ask at the source. You must have some tax helpline that you could call anonymously to get a proper explanation.

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December 13, 2023, 06:16:47 PM
 #26

I asked this on a judicial forum in the taxation segment. I asked if I was allowed to transfer my bitcoin holdings to a non EU family member to avoid heavy taxation. And that at that stage the coins are not withdrawn to a bank account.

She answered "Cashing out is not a requirement to have acquired the added value. Therefore you will have to pay taxes on this added value the moment you transfer the coins"
(...)

This doesn't even make sense. Cashing out may not be a requirement, but I don't understand where's the "added value" here. You're not gaining anything. Will YOU be required to pay tax if e.g. you gave your car to a family member?

I wouldn't rely on any advice you get from any forum and just ask at the source. You must have some tax helpline that you could call anonymously to get a proper explanation.
That's what I'm talking about. If you are involved in investments, then you need to study the legislation and communicate with like-minded people in order to understand how to protect your investments and not pay like a obedient sheep 50% of your profits and be proud that you are a conscientious citizen.

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December 14, 2023, 08:11:16 AM
 #27

I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

Or you just simply buy ex. 2 Bitcoin and put them in a different wallet one with 0.5 BTC and the other is 1.5 BTC and you just said that you only have 0.5 BTC in this hardware wallet.  Grin. I mean its kinda legal right or I would say in the grey zone you still pay tax for your 0.5 BTC.

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December 14, 2023, 11:04:48 AM
 #28

I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

Or you just simply buy ex. 2 Bitcoin and put them in a different wallet one with 0.5 BTC and the other is 1.5 BTC and you just said that you only have 0.5 BTC in this hardware wallet.  Grin. I mean its kinda legal right or I would say in the grey zone you still pay tax for your 0.5 BTC.
In Russia, people say that you can't be half pregnant. You can declare any amount of cryptocurrency and keep most of it secret from everyone, but in the blockchain all transactions are visible.
And if you ever make a mistake, you will pay a lot of fines or get jail time. I prefer to pay taxes on fiat received and not declare cryptocurrencies. It's safer in my country.

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December 15, 2023, 02:00:53 AM
 #29

In Russia, people say that you can't be half pregnant. You can declare any amount of cryptocurrency and keep most of it secret from everyone, but in the blockchain all transactions are visible.
And if you ever make a mistake, you will pay a lot of fines or get jail time. I prefer to pay taxes on fiat received and not declare cryptocurrencies. It's safer in my country.

Here in my country as far as I know we get taxed for each we trade and when do withdraw it to fiat in a local Centralized Exchange that has licensed.
and
Well hahahhaha you are actually right it is much safer not to declare our cryptocurrencies only declare the fiat that we have.


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December 15, 2023, 01:50:15 PM
 #30

In Russia, people say that you can't be half pregnant. You can declare any amount of cryptocurrency and keep most of it secret from everyone, but in the blockchain all transactions are visible.
And if you ever make a mistake, you will pay a lot of fines or get jail time. I prefer to pay taxes on fiat received and not declare cryptocurrencies. It's safer in my country.

Here in my country as far as I know we get taxed for each we trade and when do withdraw it to fiat in a local Centralized Exchange that has licensed.
and
Well hahahhaha you are actually right it is much safer not to declare our cryptocurrencies only declare the fiat that we have.


This is similar to paying tax on every win at the casino, and then paying taxes when you leave the casino.

This is a game with negative mathematical expectation, in which you will always lose if you play by the rules imposed on you by the government.

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December 15, 2023, 05:18:02 PM
 #31

That's what I'm talking about. If you are involved in investments, then you need to study the legislation and communicate with like-minded people in order to understand how to protect your investments and not pay like a obedient sheep 50% of your profits and be proud that you are a conscientious citizen.
Amen.
I'm not against paying taxes, but they need to be set fairly and be reasonable. Charging someone 50% of the profit or charging taxes on unrealised gains is morally wrong and should be avoided as far as possible.

I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

This is where many people get it wrong. It's super easy to hold your bitcoins quietly, without anyone knowing, but eventually you will want to cash out (either by converting to fiat or buying something expensive with bitcoins directly) and that's where they get you.
You need to think ahead, pay taxes on your BTC income if applicable, so when the time comes, you'd be able to explain where did all that wealth come from.


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December 16, 2023, 10:57:38 AM
 #32

That's what I'm talking about. If you are involved in investments, then you need to study the legislation and communicate with like-minded people in order to understand how to protect your investments and not pay like a obedient sheep 50% of your profits and be proud that you are a conscientious citizen.
Amen.
I'm not against paying taxes, but they need to be set fairly and be reasonable. Charging someone 50% of the profit or charging taxes on unrealised gains is morally wrong and should be avoided as far as possible.

I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

This is where many people get it wrong. It's super easy to hold your bitcoins quietly, without anyone knowing, but eventually you will want to cash out (either by converting to fiat or buying something expensive with bitcoins directly) and that's where they get you.
You need to think ahead, pay taxes on your BTC income if applicable, so when the time comes, you'd be able to explain where did all that wealth come from.


Why interact with bitcoins?
There are a lot of exchanges no KYC Level. You can exchange Bitcoin for stablecoin, and then stablecoin for fiat and declare it as self-employed income. The tax rate for self-employed people in many countries is adequate.

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