I think it's possible to keep going without banning mixers

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Despite the fact that I have been promoting a mixer campaign for the past 42 weeks, I actually like it that I get paid for a couple of comments I make on the forum through the mixer service; likewise, there are so many members who are promoting mixers through their signature spaces too, but at this point, it's not in the decision of anyone of us to change the rules made by Thymos already.

In the thread about mixers to be banned, Thymos said that he was not asked by the government authority to ban mixers from the forum, but without him being requested to ban mixers from the forum, we know what his fear is.

The forum has been of help in so many ways to different people, casinos, ICOs, and crypto newbies, and it's still helping to promote other Bitcoin services and crypto-related services too; therefore, it cannot be risked because of the mixer service.

I would have also suggested that mixers continue and let the rule made by Thymos be reversed, but what if, because of these mixer services, anything happens in the future and it lingers with the forum and the government places a heavy fine to be paid by the forum admin, or else the forum will short down? What will the faith of the forum be by then?

Will all the mixers who got promoted here be able to raise the amount of money that will be fined to the forum?

I am not saying anything of the sort will happen, but what if?? That's why it's just necessary to take an early precaution.

[DooMAD]

Possible?  Yes.  Prudent?  Seemingly not.

And we're not exactly banning them, we're just not actively promoting them as vociferously.  I'm confident we'll still identify the shady ones and warn users against them.  And people will still find their way to the legitimate ones if they need to.  Mixers aren't going anywhere.  It's just that we're trying to be a little more discreet about it because they're a sensitive subject at the moment.

[Lucius]

This has been a hot topic recently but I think it's not necessary to ban mixers because their existence is not actually the problem today. Mixers are legal, they aren't illegal, so, it's no problem for this forum to allow mixers to create ANN thread and have discussion or even promote themselves via forum ads or signature campaign. Google allows you to search bitcoin mixers, right? There are even articles on Yahoo where bitcoin mixers are listed too.

Many times on the forum some provision or law that exists in the US was mentioned that exempts the advertiser from responsibility for what they actually advertise, and legally I think that the members of the forum are protected by that, but I am not sure if the same applies to the forum. But if it's true for Google and other big companies, then it should be true for the forum, right?

Regardless of how someone interprets it from a legal perspective, it seems that it is still a slippery slope that the admin wants to avoid, of course, first of all, keeping in mind that it is not the forum itself, but also him personally as a responsible person. I believe that it is not easy for anyone to think of Ross Ulbricht, who will most likely rot in prison for the rest of his life, and to think that something similar could happen to you.

Yes, believe it or not, the problem starts when you ignore what is publishes about certain mixers. There were mixers earlier, like, [banned mixer] (since 2018) and [banned mixer] (since 2016). I did a research and these mixers have never been mentioned by any media, these mixers haven't been seized and this forum didn't get any problem from these mixers. Are they honeypot? I don't know but at the moment it looks like it's perfectly safe to discuss about them and to it's not harmful from them to promote themselves here. They haven't officially caught any attention from governments.

Imagine a situation where the mixers remain on the forum under the same conditions as before, and then an article appears in one of the influential media where the article mentions every mixer by name as possible services that are currently being used by some hacker/terrorist group. Game over, right?

The reason why this attitude is better for this forum is that what would theymos do if tomorrow there comes a casino with ANN thread, runs signature campaign and helps people to launder money? Imagine you read articles that Lazarus laundered money through CasinoX, then another article comes up with title: Russian hackers launder money through CasinoX. If theymos won't ban this CasinoX immediately and wait for its seize, then this forum will be included in another PDF uploaded by justice.gov. Will theymos block discussion about crypto casinos? Will he ban casino signature campaigns? Doesn't make sense, right?

We have to accept that sooner or later the time will come when signature campaigns will no longer be part of this forum. Whether it will be about the fact that gambling sites will be banned after the mixers, or maybe the forum as a place for advertising will lose its meaning due to the decreasing interest of some of the new generations that are coming.

Some older members of the forum surely remember the time when signature campaigns did not even have a manager and everything was done by bots - and in those ten years we have obviously gone from one extreme to the other. Those who adhere to the rule "always expect the unexpected" have known for a long time that such times will come. We have nothing left but to adapt and move on.

[robelneo]

We have to accept that sooner or later the time will come when signature campaigns will no longer be part of this forum. Whether it will be about the fact that gambling sites will be banned after the mixers, or maybe the forum as a place for advertising will lose its meaning due to the decreasing interest of some of the new generations that are coming.

Theymos can disable showing the signature banners and it could end right away but he needs activity on this forum so he'll likely keep it on, or if Bitcointalk loses its value on the internet or the search engine it's unlikely with over 500k backlinks, and counting, the future is very uncertain but these two are two things that will make signature campaign likely to stay, other factors that will make the signature campaign go away are still unknown,

Some older members of the forum surely remember the time when signature campaigns did not even have a manager and everything was done by bots - and in those ten years we have obviously gone from one extreme to the other. Those who adhere to the rule "always expect the unexpected" have known for a long time that such times will come. We have nothing left but to adapt and move on.

If we're active here daily we will feel that when top casinos cease to support the signature campaign and no new projects are launching a new campaign, but right now they are still at it, let's enjoy until they last or we cannot keep up being active here.

[virasog]

I know and understand that it's some kind of censorship but it's better than absolutely banning particular categories. I think that it's not necessary for theymos to ban discussion and promotion of mixers. If forum administration and moderation will react when there is an article about particular mixer or casino or another scam crypto project and ban ANN/promotional threads of these particular projects, they won't be included in justice.gov's pdfs and won't be mentioned anywhere. I think this is a safe and better option.

I do not know why we keep coming up with excuses or suggestions to keep the mixer's discussions and marketing running on this forum.

Isn't the decision of the theymos and he is probably the better judge to know what is good for him and the forum, rather than any other member of the forum.

It's time that we accept his decision. Also, i don't think that no matter which logic we come up with, he is ever going to change his decision, not in the current times when authorities are after the mixers.

[Alpha Marine]

Look at things from Theymos' perspective. See how the government is going hard on CZ, Binance, and Ronaldo. This is how they fight a project. When it's a project they can't shut down or control directly, they go against the players in that project.
Mixers are not illegal, but some mixers are making things difficult for the rest and this is bringing a lot of heat to the forum.

Speaking of casinos, the government is not fighting against casinos. They already have a way of controlling and watching them, so they're not a threat. If one or two casino defaults it doesn't mean every casino would be a problem to the forum.
1xbit was on the forum with so many issues but the government did nothing at all. You even see 1xbet on the biggest sports sponsorship.

I do not know why we keep coming up with excuses or suggestions to keep the mixer's discussions and marketing running on this forum.

People are entitled to their opinions, aren't they? OP is only voicing his opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. Even if it won't make Theymos change his mind he still has a right to say it.

[PrivacyG]

Yea some are going to feel like we are being censored or whatnot, but I would rather this place exist vs risking that at some point it might not if we let advertising of mixers happen. Just my 2 cents.

My concern about Censorship is more about the ban on Mixers becoming a precedent.  I get the reasons theymos would fear repercussions.  His life, freedom and Bitcoin Talk s existence.

But this is possibly mined ground to step on.  You ban Mixers and the next thing they crack down on, either you also ban the thing or they could always suspect you.  They can always knock on the door and ask.  Theymos, why ban a thing but not the other?

[hd49728]

My concern about Censorship is more about the ban on Mixers becoming a precedent.  I get the reasons theymos would fear repercussions.  His life, freedom and Bitcoin Talk s existence.

theymos has its own life to care about.

His decision and this big call actually are not for only his own life but also for future of Bitcoin Talk forum too. He knew what kind of big risks might come, knock his door and the forum might have issues which I believe none of us want to see.

theymos got a subpoena from US. government because of Silk Road and he had experience with legal issue and I believe he was not fearful if he did not see something big is coming. This proactively preventive solution is good for him, forum and its members including us too.

[KingsDen]

I know and understand that it's some kind of censorship but it's better than absolutely banning particular categories. I think that it's not necessary for theymos to ban discussion and promotion of mixers. If forum administration and moderation will react when there is an article about particular mixer or casino or another scam crypto project and ban ANN/promotional threads of these particular projects, they won't be included in justice.gov's pdfs and won't be mentioned anywhere. I think this is a safe and better option.

I do not know why we keep coming up with excuses or suggestions to keep the mixer's discussions and marketing running on this forum.

Isn't the decision of the theymos and he is probably the better judge to know what is good for him and the forum, rather than any other member of the forum.

It's time that we accept his decision. Also, i don't think that no matter which logic we come up with, he is ever going to change his decision, not in the current times when authorities are after the mixers.

In a particular way, I do understand the Op when he said that a particular mixer who has entered the government bad book or who the media has written bad against, should immediately be banned in the forum and maybe its ANN thread archived or trashed. This will be a solution only when the forum is in good relationship with the government. In the other way, the government does not have time to ask if the forum was able to ban a particular mixer when they learnt that they are bad players.
Remember that this forum is already in the government PDF. We understood this when chipmixer was seized. The best thing for the forum is to exenorate itself completely.

Also remember that theymos is a resident in US, he therefore should know better than us what the US government is able to do in a situation like this. Let's work with theymos decision even if it's not the best for us now. There is future and there is room for reversal of decisions if necessary.

[Faisal2202]

I can not agree more with you and I also had this thought that if the administrators had acted before or given some time in the research then they might found something to ban the promotion of this platform which laundered money. Actually, I also read some articles about Sinbad a long time ago, maybe it's been 6 months now. Well, when I read in an article that Sinbad is being used for Money Laundering J did not apply for it but after some time I thought.

It is not the project which is only made for this bad purpose because I did not know and still do not know if the team was behind it or just some MFs used it for a bad purpose. Well, whoever was behind it the admin and moderators should have taken some action against them.

Overall we can't blame only admins because they are not the one who was promoting these platforms we should also question those managers who managed them but what in the world they would have known. To be honest, I don't want to say anything about it because I do have a little feeling that things will become normal.

[yhiaali3]

It seems to me a good and reasonable solution. Yes, the suspicious mixers whose reputation is being talked about in the media or are accused by the government can be banned and the rest of the mixers without any problems can be kept.

But it is better to adopt the principle of safety with the decision taken by Theymos, because banning mixers is a protection for the forum, and it is also a protection for the members participating in these campaigns, who are paid by the mixers, which will put them under government surveillance.

Also what guarantee is there that the mixer that looks good now is a clean mixer? People kept thinking that Chipmixer looked clean for about 6 years and then the facts were suddenly revealed.