Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?

[buwaytress]

I doubt very much your average lawyer will even know what a mixer is.

If you think your lawyer doesn't have any idea of the FinTech laws, then you should probably change your lawyer. If you can't even afford a proper lawyer right now, then you have nothing to worry about.

If you aren't doing anything illegal and you are not mixing a significant amount of money, no one would bother you. The man-hours it takes to compile the evidence to prosecute a person is not worth the time, don't worry about it. That is unless you are doing something illegal and you definitely have things to worry about then.

Never mind mixer, the average IT lawyer doesn't know about crypto and how it affects legal responsibilities/risk. I say this with all due respect, and from the admittance of an IT lawyer I engage for work over the past couple of years. They're pretty great at tech, fintech, but decentralised tech (I know only Bitcoin really qualifies) is something they're only just coming to grips with.

MiCA provides much-needed clarity but it's national law (even in the EU) that's a challenge for them.

I always say, don't let your understanding be motivated by the fear of getting caught for doing something wrong. Be motivated that your personal freedoms and fundamental rights -- including money-related -- will always be under attack.

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[Lucius]

From your link the quotes below grabbed my attention:

In general, I would recommend using privacy driven cryptocurrencies if you want to have privacy in your transactions...
Since Bitcoin is purely transparent and you are able to to analyze each transaction in blockchain space you have enough data to identify and anonymize transactions regarding the mixing service.You just have to filter all blockchain data which is not interesting for you and analyze the rest.

monero and zcash are private crypto's because they were built with that purpose in mind. Bitcoin was not.

You're going in the right direction, because the so-called "privacy coins" are definitely different from Bitcoin, although I can't tell you how private their transactions actually are, because I honestly haven't studied how hard or easy it is to track those transactions. However, given that the authorities are quite hostile towards such cryptocurrencies and that most centralized crypto exchanges have removed them, it is quite clear that they want to discourage people from using them.

[ranochigo]

Never mind mixer, the average IT lawyer doesn't know about crypto and how it affects legal responsibilities/risk. I say this with all due respect, and from the admittance of an IT lawyer I engage for work over the past couple of years. They're pretty great at tech, fintech, but decentralised tech (I know only Bitcoin really qualifies) is something they're only just coming to grips with.

MiCA provides much-needed clarity but it's national law (even in the EU) that's a challenge for them.

I always say, don't let your understanding be motivated by the fear of getting caught for doing something wrong. Be motivated that your personal freedoms and fundamental rights -- including money-related -- will always be under attack.

Really? I've got a few lawyer friends working for DeFi firms (specifically with regards to IP), NDA so I can't discuss too much about them. Seems like they were quite well-versed with the Crypto scene and had quite a good understanding of how the scenarios that we've mentioned would pan out. Granted that it is quite niche, but a good lawyer with some degree of knowledge in FinTech would have a very good knowledge about your rights in this issue. Again, don't think it would be wise to engage a lawyer who doesn't have any experience with whatever you're doing with.

Interestingly, from what I understand, cases involving Bitcoin are often heavily overlapped with the traditional money laundering cases and that historically prosecutor has had a harder time to build a solid case to prove malicious intent when using mixers. Regardless, if you're not doing anything illegal, then there is no case to build for anyways.

[Inwestour]

You can use mixers if it is necessary for you, especially if you have not done anything illegal. It seems to me that the more important question may be whether you can use your bitcoins after you have used the mixer, could there be a situation where certain services will not accept such coins because they came from the mixer?

It seems to me that as long as mixers are not prohibited by law, we should not worry that using them is something bad, if the user is worried about his anonymity, then there is nothing wrong with it.

[moneystery]

it's like you entered a place of prostitution, just to buy food there and don't do anything negative, but people's perception will think that you are doing illegal things there. that's what it's like when you use a mixer, even if you don't use their services for anything negative, just to increase your privacy, but the government will still think that you are doing something illegal there because many criminals have used mixer services to increase their privacy.

if you haven't done anything illegal, you can carry out transactions as usual, since you haven't done anything criminal, why should you use mixer services?

[buwaytress]

~

Really? I've got a few lawyer friends working for DeFi firms (specifically with regards to IP), NDA so I can't discuss too much about them. Seems like they were quite well-versed with the Crypto scene and had quite a good understanding of how the scenarios that we've mentioned would pan out. Granted that it is quite niche, but a good lawyer with some degree of knowledge in FinTech would have a very good knowledge about your rights in this issue. Again, don't think it would be wise to engage a lawyer who doesn't have any experience with whatever you're doing with.

Interestingly, from what I understand, cases involving Bitcoin are often heavily overlapped with the traditional money laundering cases and that historically prosecutor has had a harder time to build a solid case to prove malicious intent when using mixers. Regardless, if you're not doing anything illegal, then there is no case to build for anyways.

Yes, really. I have also come into contact with crypto-niche lawyers even before "defi" but we're really not talking about the average legal career guy here. Even then, these niche lawyers deal with issues very specific to the company hiring them, and have the experience related.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me the starting point is legal clarity on crypto itself. How a jurisdiction views it then determines which activities trigger specific aspects of the law and there is where national law (or lack of) comes into play. It's usually precedent that helps. One firm does it well and legally in one jurisdiction, others follow in their footsteps. So what you get are lawyers who're experts with one template of business entity, one jurisdiction, one way of conducting taxes, etc.

Precedent is important. Expertise follows quite easily, so the average on precedent is low at the moment.

Establishing intent doesn't always play a role, either. If mixers are determined to be illegal, as I suspect one day they will, in the usual-suspect jurisdictions, then intent no longer comes into play (let's say, for example, when US Treasury sanctioned mixers like Blender, making it automatically illegal for US citizens). The next step then, would be to qualify what makes a mixer or what qualifies as mixing.

[Smartvirus]

There is nothing illegal about having to use the services of mixers. It’s just as legal as any service out there in cryptospace and our world. It only portrays you to be one who is privacy concerned and sees the need to not have your transactions followed in any particular way.
The stand on the forum with mixers shouldn’t deter you from having any form of patronage to the service, the forum only takes this position to save itself some trouble as, some users have used the leverage mixers provide to hide traces of illegal transactions. These are the persons that should be worried as, their transactions are one of high interest to authorities.
If your clean, your cool.

[Abiky]

In the statement released by the FBI or whoever it was when the most recent mixer was shut down they said something like "Mixers are not illegal". This means using mixers is not illegal. If you're carrying out any illicit activities with mixers, that's what is illegal.

It's the same thing with using the Internet.
You're boldly using the Internet and nobody has come knocking at your door simply because you use the internet, but if you use the internet for illegal activities, somebody might come knocking.

That's certainly true, mate. But be aware that governments can make mixers "illegal" anytime if they want to. Especially if they see crypto becoming extremely-popular in the long run. They will come up with the excuse that mixers are used mainly for money laundering and tax evasion. People that are caught using a mixer could either face jail time or may be required to pay a fine.

In extreme situations, governments can prosecute developers of non-custodial mixers for launching an unregistered money service business (MSB). With US Senator Elizabeth Warren introducing the "Digital Currency Anti-Money Laundering Act", we should expect the worse. At least, within the US. Other countries might do the same if they see people "ditching" Fiat in favor of crypto. It's all part of the agenda to undermine personal freedom and privacy. Even this forum will ban anyone promoting mixers. It'll be a dark future for the whole crypto/Blockchain industry

[bitcoin talk]

In the statement released by the FBI or whoever it was when the most recent mixer was shut down they said something like "Mixers are not illegal". This means using mixers is not illegal.

I managed to find a link for that:
https://news.bitcoin.com/report-claims-fbi-bitcoin-mixers-btc-forfeiture-processing/
It appears the FBI said they would prefer to have mixers illegal.

the FBI, the United States Department of Justice (DoJ), and FinCEN have said that the use of bitcoin mixers should be criminalized

How common is it to see FBI/DOJ complain?

It's the same thing with using the Internet.
You're boldly using the Internet and nobody has come knocking at your door simply because you use the internet, but if you use the internet for illegal activities, somebody might come knocking.

Good comparison

It's all part of the agenda to undermine personal freedom and privacy. Even this forum will ban anyone promoting mixers. It'll be a dark future for the whole crypto/Blockchain industry

What is the primary reason for banning mixers on here?

... more important question may be whether you can use your bitcoins after you have used the mixer, could there be a situation where certain services will not accept such coins because they came from the mixer?

If they reject the payment, how would you get it refunded if its gone thru the mixer? How does the person rejecting the payment because it came from mixer, send the money back to you?

[CODE200]

You'll have a hard time using CEX if they detect that you're in possession of cryptocurrency that's been tainted by other dirty cryptocurrency because you used a mixer but besides that I don't think you're going to have any problem using mixers, it's just that it's a taboo to speak about it here in the forum starting from January 1, 2024. No one said anything about the police knocking on your door when you use one so no worries about that.

[bitcoin talk]

"privacy coins" are definitely different from Bitcoin, although I can't tell you how private their transactions actually are, because I honestly haven't studied how hard or easy it is to track those transactions. However, given that the authorities are quite hostile towards such cryptocurrencies and that most centralized crypto exchanges have removed them, it is quite clear that they want to discourage people from using them.

It wouldn't make sense for someone with malicious intentions to use mixers when they could go the privacy coin route? I guess they have a hard time accessing privacy coins since the bans so their business goes to the mixers? Agencies got one hole got plugged now perhaps they will try to plug the other (mixers)?

[Rampagoe004]

Actually, we are not really prohibited from using a mixer. There is nothing inherently wrong with mixer services. However, this becomes a problem when these services are used to launder money and fund criminal organizations around the world. It is true that we as users do not carry out illegal activities, but mixer services themselves are often confiscated because they have been proven several times to help carry out illegal activities. In this forum mixer services will be banned but if you talk about mixers without accompanying links/shortlinks then it's not a problem IMO

[TimeTeller]

You'll have a hard time using CEX if they detect that you're in possession of cryptocurrency that's been tainted by other dirty cryptocurrency because you used a mixer but besides that I don't think you're going to have any problem using mixers, it's just that it's a taboo to speak about it here in the forum starting from January 1, 2024. No one said anything about the police knocking on your door when you use one so no worries about that.

I believe, as long as you are discreet with your activities using the mixer services, you won't need to worry about someone knocking on your door.
But come this new year, I don't know how things go here when we talk about their services and other discussions that come with it.
In my opinion, if there's no strong reason to use their service, why not just go to the usual route of using the regular trading platforms?

[bitcoin talk]

...why not just go to the usual route of using the regular trading platforms?

Would that usual route align with my privacy leanings?

[Lucius]

"privacy coins" are definitely different from Bitcoin, although I can't tell you how private their transactions actually are, because I honestly haven't studied how hard or easy it is to track those transactions. However, given that the authorities are quite hostile towards such cryptocurrencies and that most centralized crypto exchanges have removed them, it is quite clear that they want to discourage people from using them.

It wouldn't make sense for someone with malicious intentions to use mixers when they could go the privacy coin route? I guess they have a hard time accessing privacy coins since the bans so their business goes to the mixers? Agencies got one hole got plugged now perhaps they will try to plug the other (mixers)?

It actually makes sense because if you mix BTC, you do it with the assumption that you will get coins that are not related to you, that is, you want to break the link between your main address and the address from which you will make transactions. Maybe people would use privacy coins more if they could get to them more easily, but also if those same coins would be accepted by merchants in the same way as is the case with Bitcoin.

In other words, private coins are something that makes sense in transactions between private individuals, but with them you cannot pay for a hotel, buy a plane ticket, or many other things that you can pay with Bitcoin today.


@bitcoin talk, posting multiple posts in a row is against the rules of the forum, and you can reply to multiple users in one post by adding multiple post quotes, just scroll down and select the "Insert Quote" option.

[new19980]

Unless, of course your mixer is listed as being compliant with money laundering, that is a whole other story.

all mixers are used for money laundering

[ranochigo]

all mixers are used for money laundering

Every currency in the world is involved in money laundering, heck even banks (HSBC, Morgan Stanley) are complicit with money laundering. A slap on their wrist and life goes as per normal.

The trend here appears to be that mixers aren't illegal, until they are found to be involved in any money laundering scheme. A wrong choice of word in my original post, should be "complicit".

[yazher]

Recently local exchanges easily banned those accounts that are traced to have affiliated with gambling from their transactions and there was nothing to worry about because all they got was banned from the local exchanges but with the mixers are also in danger of being banned in the future because of how they are using it for illegal activities, there is a tendency that they will gonna put some serious consequences for whoever caught using it depends on what countries they are residing because countries have different laws concerning mixers and it would be safe for us to just avoid using it until you find some good alternatives on hiding your transactions to the public.

[Maus0728]

Anything to worry about if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will any one come knocking on your door if you use mixers and not doing anything illegal?
Will posts like this be banned too after Jan?
Will using mixers be an expensive?

1. Nothing to worry about but if you're going to send those coins to a CEX then you're going to have a problem there because they might see that you've used a mixer for those coins. You might not be doing anything illegal but once you're caught using one, you have some explaining to do about why you're using mixers.
2. Unless you're a domestic terrorist or a member of a terrorist cell, I don't think you're going to find anyone knocking your door anytime soon.
3. You can still talk about mixers but it's generalized and no names of mixing services are going to be mentioned.
4. I don't think so, they don't ask for much for their services, that's why criminals use them to launder their money.

[Natsuu]

I think using mixers for legal and legitimate purposes does not inherently raise any concerns. It's used to enhance privacy and fungibility in cryptocurrency transactions, and many individuals use them to protect their financial privacy right so if you are not engaging in any illegal activities and are using mixers for privacy reasons, there shouldn't be any legal issues. But it's still essential to be aware of any updates