Manipulation / ETF's

[Harpaggie2001]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price? 
Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation? 
Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

Any friendly opinions welcome! 

[franky1]

most ETF authorised participants(agents/basket makers) are not going to buy/sell large clumps of coins on the public spot market
they use darkpools.. AKA OTC markets instead

the spot market is for low yield investors to buy small allotments of mostly under 0.001btc per order. where as the darkpools is where the big deals happen between larger investors

the SEC has already spoke with all the ETF applicants about how they will onramp and off ramp their AP agents baskets. whereby they will use darkpools to settle in-cash when offloading bitcoin. and custodians like coinbases OTC darkpool has enough liquidity to cover this.

there are other things like when making a basket to then assign a number of shares, to then offer shares on the ETF platform. for a basket to then be removed requires enough share holders to accumulate enough shares for a basket to then vote to close the shares and return the basket to the custodian in exchange for cash

this alone makes it less easy to close off a basket and cause bitcoins to move out of custody to then enter the spot market. because the custodian will just find new buyers of the baskets on the OTC darkpool

the only times a custodian would then sell unlocked coins to the spot market is if the custodians liquidity of fiat is low and they cant find another basket buyer on the OTC..

other economic things are in play too
rather than a share holder accumulating enough shares to then vote out that allocation to then OTC to fiat that basket. they know they wont get best price on the OTC market. so they are better off not closing the shares to remove them from the ETF but instead just sell the shares within the ETF at the going rate

[seoincorporation]

Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation? 

Manipulate bitcoin market is not cheap at all because you are trying to manipulate a market with $854,777,215,245 capitalization, so, even if you join with $1million, $10millions or $100millions, it will be not enough money to make a big difference in the prize.

A good example that we have of market manipulation is what Elon did with Dogecoins, and looks like SEC gives zero fucks about it. So, people don't have to worry about this.

[cryptomaniac_xxx]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price? 

Not sure about volumes, but it could take billions perhaps?

Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation? 
Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

I think this is one concern that SEC has raised ever since there's a ETF approval and it's subsequent denial by them. And obviously, they have been established and one of its mandate is to "protects investors against fraudulent and manipulative practices".

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

Any friendly opinions welcome! 

Maybe, but the thing though is that those entities that are applying for ETF are very powerful, like BlackRock and Vanguard and maybe there are pressures to SEC more than before to really approved because of this names.

[_act_]

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

What you mean is that bitcoin price is more volatile to United States spot ETF news. I can remember the news took the price from $24800 to over $40000 now. But just yesterday that we read a news about the possibility that United States SEC may reject the application, bitcoin fall from over $45000 to $40200 until it increased back. That is not manipulation. It is because people having bitcoin are buying when the news is positive and selling when the news is negative. It is people and no just a single person or few people that are buying or selling that makes the price of bitcoin to be much volatile as it increased or decreased. Bitcoin marketcap is over $860 billion, that is more than what that can be used to manipulate bitcoin price.

[bitmover]

Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation?  
Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

I think it is quite the opposite.

Bitcoin will be more reliable to market manipulations when the ETF is approved.
There are some reasons for that.

Bitcoin already has a consolidate volume. There are many big players in already, and more big players coming in will mean less concentration of power in the hands of the big players.

Sec regulatory requirements may be pain in the ass and terrible for privacy, but they do work to make market manipulation more difficult.

I think an ETF is inevitable at some point. I don't know when  , but it will get approved eventually.  People are talking about this since 2016 or whatever.

[goldkingcoiner]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price?  
Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation?  
Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

Any friendly opinions welcome!  

Market manipulation will always exist. Whether Bitcoin, traditional markets or whatever. The rich will always find a way to secretly screw over everyone else and honestly, they will probably never get caught (and even if they get caught, they probably will not face any kind of harsh punishment).

Look at exhibit A: Elon Musk and Bitcoin/Dogecoin.

[highalch]

Since Blackrock is a 10 trillion dollar company, they technically are able to manipulate every market in the world.

Yet, you look for the wrong places. I would not worry about ETF price manipulation, since they're highly regulated. I would rather worry about classic crypto exchanges and their fake trading activities - providing fake volume, fake orders, selling the order flow in secret, etc. In an efficient and liquid market, every exchange would provide nearly the same price for bitcoin. What do you think, why are there .5% differences? Exactly.

[Jegileman]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price?  
Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation?  
Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

Any friendly opinions welcome!  

Manipulating the market is not something that a single entity can handle. It has to happen the same time by a group of people who hold large amount of BTC in their wallets. The news of Bitcoin ETF that is affecting the market is not a manipulation from SEC per say. But the news will have a lot of implications and impact to the bitcoin holders that are waiting for the verdict from SEC about bitcoin ETF.

SEC might not want to be a part of market manipulation but as it is now, the news of the spot bitcoin ETF is playing a substantial role now and affecting the movement of the market. Whatever happens, it is just a matter of time for bitcoin to recover even when the news would have caused changes to the market movement, it won’t last long because bitcoin cannot be manipulated by a single entity.

[kryptqnick]

It's a good question, but I don't think this is the problem. The SEC just has a strong view about Bitcoin not being a security and thus not being under their regulations, and ETFs are a way of bringing Bitcoin, at least partially, under their regulations. Bitcoin has a huge market capitalization, so actually manipulating the price by operating big amounts of money is extremely hard. I guess there's no consensus in that regard, but I agree with seoincorporation about the amounts that don't have an impact. So it's not about potential price manipulations, in my opinion.

[EarnOnVictor]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price?

I am happy that it is not me alone who knows that the cryptocurrency market is being manipulated. But the market capital of Bitcoin is discouraging it, yet it is happening as we can see during the ETF saga and some other few times that people may not even notice much. But there can't be a general consensus for this, once the money is big enough, it could possibly move the market as they want depending on the condition the big amount met the market with.

Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation?

Of course, the SEC, as a responsible agency will be worried about this, but they can still do little in the crypto space.

Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

Well, there will be a time for that, but I certainly do not know when. The privacy and decentralization of cryptocurrency have given room to this unethical practice which is of one the worries of the government. Over time, I think there will be some kind of solution to this, I am certain that the crypto space can't remain the same in the next 10 years in terms of regulation. This, I will 100% support for sanity sake.

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

My friend, you are not wrong about it, and conversely, maybe it is the beer that made you think you were wrong...lol. People and news outlets use this ETF to manipulate the market. It's no news.

[Lucius]

~snip~
A good example that we have of market manipulation is what Elon did with Dogecoins, and looks like SEC gives zero fucks about it. So, people don't have to worry about this.

I wouldn't say that they (SEC) didn't really care that Mr. Mars was manipulating that altcoin, which managed to pump up to, if I'm not mistaken, $0.70 - and I see proof of that in the fact that he very abruptly stopped what he was doing because he probably received a warning that he could be punished much worse than it was in 2018.

Washington D.C., Sept. 29, 2018 —
The Securities and Exchange Commission announced today that Elon Musk, CEO and Chairman of Silicon Valley-based Tesla Inc., has agreed to settle the securities fraud charge brought by the SEC against him last week.  The SEC also today charged Tesla with failing to have required disclosure controls and procedures relating to Musk’s tweets, a charge that Tesla has agreed to settle.  The settlements, which are subject to court approval, will result in comprehensive corporate governance and other reforms at Tesla—including Musk’s removal as Chairman of the Tesla board—and the payment by Musk and Tesla of financial penalties]

~snip~
Sec regulatory requirements may be pain in the ass and terrible for price, but they do work to make market manipulation more difficult.

I think they just wanted to ensure as much control as possible over such a way of trading when it comes to Bitcoin, and if they now have the largest company that is practically very close to political structures (BlackRock) and the company that will do the custodial part of the work (Coinbase), we can to conclude that there are conditions for approving such an ETF.

[amishmanish]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price?

I am happy that it is not me alone who knows that the cryptocurrency market is being manipulated. But the market capital of Bitcoin is discouraging it, yet it is happening as we can see during the ETF saga and some other few times that people may not even notice much. But there can't be a general consensus for this, once the money is big enough, it could possibly move the market as they want depending on the condition the big amount met the market with.

Why are you so sure that the market is being manipulated. Especially Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not promising smart contracts or a world computer. It is just the penultimate settlement layer and reserve currency of the evolving Web3/ DLT world.

Also, when it comes to market manipulation, it is generally stuff like insider trading that corporations can engage in, specifically the people within those organizations who are privy to privileged information. In case of Bitcoin, there is hardly anything that can be hidden. The network is transparent for everyone to see and anybody who tries to buy/ sell the news is going to do it in full public view.

Unless the SEC itself is compromised about the ETF news.

[Solosanz]

What you're talking about?

We already face so many manipulations: China ban and unban Bitcoin, no bull season on 2021 due to recession, Bitcoin is bubble, Bitcoin harm the environment, Bitcoin is for money laundering, Elon Musk accept and reject Bitcoin in Tesla etc.

ETF is just the next, since it was caused by centralization (BlackRock), so no surprise if they will accept this year and then reject it at the same year or in the future.

[BIT-BENDER]

Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation? 

Manipulate bitcoin market is not cheap at all because you are trying to manipulate a market with $854,777,215,245 capitalization, so, even if you join with $1million, $10millions or $100millions, it will be not enough money to make a big difference in the prize.

A good example that we have of market manipulation is what Elon did with Dogecoins, and looks like SEC gives zero fucks about it. So, people don't have to worry about this.

I thought the same too, it's not easy to manipulate the Bitcoin market, Bitcoin has gone far above that right now, you can only manipulate a less saturated market like altcoins, infact to be honest the Acronym FUD fear uncertainty and despair and FOMO fear of missing out are mostly attributed to altcoins especially those new altcoins.
You would need to play around with very huge amount of Bitcoin across a high number of whales before any discussion about Bitcoin manipulation can be carried out.

[RioBlemz]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price? 
Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation? 
Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

Any friendly opinions welcome! 

Manipulation is what makes the market interesting. The SEC itself has their interest they are not innocent. They want control as it favors their government.
What you should be sure of Bitcoin has come to stay and the value will increase with time.

[moneystery]

Since Blackrock is a 10 trillion dollar company, they technically are able to manipulate every market in the world.

....

you are wrong, blackrock is not that valuable, they are only ranked 118th most valuable company by market cap. the $9.42 trillion you mean is probably assets under their management, in management it means they manage these assets but do not have full rights to them.

while bitcoin's market capitalization is around 864.23b and is predicted to increase, and that is many times compared to blackrock's valuation. so for them to be able to manipulate the bitcoin market would be very difficult because they would need to mobilize a lot of resources just to move the market which could actually harm their company.

[bettercrypto]

Is there a general consensus on how much volume it takes to move the BTC market price?  
Is the SEC not worried about market manipulation?  
Is there a legal framework in place to deter / reprimand BTC manipulation? - I realize this could only apply to US patrons.

My theory was that BTC was too susceptible to manipulation to issue an ETF yet.  Apparently I'm wrong, which is understandable, because I make beer for a living...

Any friendly opinions welcome!  

The bitcoin market is hard to control; why do you think each bitcoin is cheap? And for you to manipulate the market, do you think that 100 bitcoins is all you need to be part of the so-called whale investors?

What do you want to emphasize on the topic of this op?

Since Blackrock is a 10 trillion dollar company, they technically are able to manipulate every market in the world.

you are wrong, blackrock is not that valuable, they are only ranked 118th most valuable company by market cap. the $9.42 trillion you mean is probably assets under their management, in management it means they manage these assets but do not have full rights to them.

while bitcoin's market capitalization is around 864.23b and is predicted to increase, and that is many times compared to blackrock's valuation. so for them to be able to manipulate the bitcoin market would be very difficult because they would need to mobilize a lot of resources just to move the market which could actually harm their company.

How did you say that Blackrock is not that valuable? And for you, it's only ranked as the 118th most valuable company in the world? Do you think it's easy to be included in that ranking achieved by Blackrock? I'm not defending Blackrock; I don't really care about that.

If Blackrock is not that valuable, why is it included in the most valuable company in the world? Do you think it's that easy to get Blackrock ranked as one of the most valuable company? You don't seem to understand what you are saying. Sorry, but I'm just correcting what you're saying. Do you think that Blackrock can't be considered one of the potential whale investors? Let's say out of the 9.4 trillion dollars in Blackrock's total assets, 1 trillion of that will be allocated to Bitcoin. Do you think that's a small amount?

[highalch]

Since Blackrock is a 10 trillion dollar company, they technically are able to manipulate every market in the world.

....

you are wrong, blackrock is not that valuable, they are only ranked 118th most valuable company by market cap. the $9.42 trillion you mean is probably assets under their management

Yes I mistyped, but obviously meant AUM. That's what matters, that's the "stuff" to manipulate markets with. That 10T is not a minor footnote to ignore.

[PrivacyG]

For Shit Coins it is easy to manipulate with a small bag of Coins.  You can purchase a few thousand Dollars worth of a Shit Coin and change its Market Cap and value by 50 percent.

For Bitcoin and such other huge Cryptocurrencies, it is easier and smarter to manipulate using power of influence.  You release negative news, produce negativity and negative events and talk big names into helping you out with it.  This includes institutions and Governments themselves publishing such information that always has an impact on the Market.

To manipulate the Bitcoin Market you likely need as much money as you would to change other Markets that are just as large.