Do we even need bitcoin mixers?

[Marvell1]

Mixing sites have been promoted on this forum for a long time but I have never used them. I know how they work but I haven't needed to use them. And now mixing platforms have been banned by Theymos due to many illegal activities being done in them. So I'm not encouraged to use the mixer platform. these platforms are useful for those who want to make large transactions secretly but not important for users like me.

It's true that mixer platform is not much needed for us because we haven't mixed anything from mixer platform so far, not sure if we will in future but those who do big transactions can use mixer platform. But if mixer platform is approved in bitcoin forum then it will be a little benefit for us that mixer campaign will be running in this forum so people can work on mixer campaign there and earn money. In past days we have seen mixer campaign forum approval so signature campaign was constantly coming and people could participate in it and earn money. I hope mixer approval in forum.

Just because you don't need mixers, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Everyone has different needs and purposes for using bitcoin, so there will also be different requirements.

As a small investor and your sole purpose in this market is profit, you don't care about your privacy, then there is nothing wrong with you not needing mixers. But for large investors who do not want to be tracked and want increased privacy, mixers can be seen as a solution to help them do that. Don't try to impose your thoughts on others.


Any business spends money on advertising but if they don't get the results they expect, they won't waste money on those ads anymore. So don't think that if mixer platforms are allowed to advertise on the forum it will only benefit the members, but it will also attract more customers and generate revenue for those platforms.

[Wakate]

by using a btc-btc mixer, your inflow and outflow gets tagged as suspicious and gets on a watchlist.. defeating the purpose of using a mixer
by doing btc xmr btc is still a thing where the btc inflow and btc outflow gets tagged and gets on a watchlist.. defeating the purpose of using a AEC
(purpose being avoid being watched/tagged as needing to be watched)

I like your analogy and it is quite comprehensive to the core!
Your point is crystal clear for everyone to assimilate in their best understanding. The outflow is what create the difference in all mixed coin. Sometimes I keep asking myself on why some neggas choose to mix their coin if they have not hand in fraudulent activities. Come to think of it, I have seen many cases where a mixed coins got frozen immediately it hit the centralized exchange. Due to the previous transactions, it was already tagged by the AML bot( Anti money laundry) without op knowing.  There are so many complications that can arise from mixing a coin and I think every one should be aware of just like you have explained.

you are more likely to have coins followed by an investigator by simply using a mixer/AEC compared to just spending coins

Many investors have fallen into the trap without cen knowing themselves. Business owners that accept cryptocurrency as one of their payment methods can be a victim of this if caution is not taken. Their are different ways a wallet address can be flagged especially when receiving coins from different tagged addresses. Mixing same coins to prevent future complications can even worsen the case. I think people can always check their addresses to know if they are tagged by the AML bot.

the funniest part is
when mixer promoters try to tell victims btc is fungible "1btc is equal to 1btc". if the promoter truly believed that then they would not be trying to get people to use mixers nor need to use mixers themselves

however they only say the fungability script, to dupe idiots into thinking its ok to receive criminal coins and victim hands over clean coins

Truth is bitter and like we all know that not everyone is ready to embrace the truth. Your coin is needed to safeguard and reduces the prone susceptibility of scam coins using algorithms they looks complicated to detect the differences in the minted coin from the output.
 From past records, mixers are funded by fraudsters and almost 60% of mixed coins are from fraudulent activities to prevent being traced.

[Learn Bitcoin]

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

You are the same guy who created a thread two years ago asking which method you should pick so the government cannot track you and you don't want to go to the jail. Why didn't you choose those non-KYC exchanges to clean your Bitcoin or send your funds to whoever you want? You yourself decided to use mixers and asked for help. You probably did not know about those non-exchanges, or the process is too long. Yeah, if someone can use privacy coins like Monero or Dash on exchanges and do it multiple times, you don't need mixers. But the Mixers have a good fanbase. We have Telegram does not mean whatsapp is useless.

[fikrett]

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

You are the same guy who created a thread two years ago asking which method you should pick so the government cannot track you and you don't want to go to the jail. Why didn't you choose those non-KYC exchanges to clean your Bitcoin or send your funds to whoever you want? You yourself decided to use mixers and asked for help. You probably did not know about those non-exchanges, or the process is too long. Yeah, if someone can use privacy coins like Monero or Dash on exchanges and do it multiple times, you don't need mixers. But the Mixers have a good fanbase. We have Telegram does not mean whatsapp is useless.

Interesting. Thanks for bringing this up.
As it was said previously - everybody's choice, really.
But most still would use other alternatives.

[examplens]

[banned mixer]   
Mixtum   
Coinomize   
Anonymixer   
Webmixer   
[banned mixer]   
Mixero   
BitMixer.online   
[banned mixer]   
Mixerdream   
[banned mixer]   
Thormixer   
JokerMix   
SwampLizard

It is interesting to see that the mixer ban works differently according to some mixers. Some are not even allowed to be mentioned, they are already wordfiltered, while most of them don't have that. It's ok if the link is automatically removed because it can be part of the promotion, but completely renaming it to [banned mixer] is redundant.
In the context of this discussion, it is not crucial to know all the names, but in the future, maybe theymos could consider this correction.

[Easteregg69]

What about Monero. I tested it.

And I can't remember the outcome.

Some of it becomes like cult of the dead cow over time and real masquerading kicks in.

My beer will soon be cold. Code language. Interpret at your discretion. Labor control.

[Z-tight]

What about Monero. I tested it.

And I can't remember the outcome.

What about Monero? And what do you mean by you tested it and cannot remember the outcome. You can surely convert your BTC to Monero in a p2p exchange, move it around and send it back into a different p2p exchange, then convert it into BTC and send it in bits to different BTC addresses. It is a good method of privacy when done correctly. I can see the feedback on your profile, so i think you should start making your posts make meaning.

[ndutndut]

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

But if i were to guess, i would say that converting bitcoin to other cryptocurrencies is much tasking than just using a mixer not to mention the price volatility that could affect the amount of bitcoin you are sending or receiving

There is no denying that one of the main benefits of using a Mixer is maintaining better privacy. because with mixer transactions, it will be much harder to trace the original source or destination of funds, so if someone wants to do something bad with our assets, it will be harder to track our financial activities. This can also be very useful for those who are concerned about their financial privacy or who live in countries with strict financial regulations.

But on the other hand, Mixer is also not a good idea and so far I also don't need Mixer because I don't have many bitcoins. The purpose of Mixer is often misused which eventually results in Mixer being banned in several countries, even on this forum, because Mixer is widely used to clean stolen Bitcoins, there are also Mixers that are fraudulent. Mixer is indeed good for maintaining privacy, especially if you have a lot of bitcoins, but so far, Mixer has been widely used for criminal purposes.

[m2017]

There is no denying that one of the main benefits of using a Mixer is maintaining better privacy. because with mixer transactions, it will be much harder to trace the original source or destination of funds, so if someone wants to do something bad with our assets, it will be harder to track our financial activities. This can also be very useful for those who are concerned about their financial privacy or who live in countries with strict financial regulations.

But on the other hand, Mixer is also not a good idea and so far I also don't need Mixer because I don't have many bitcoins. The purpose of Mixer is often misused which eventually results in Mixer being banned in several countries, even on this forum, because Mixer is widely used to clean stolen Bitcoins, there are also Mixers that are fraudulent. Mixer is indeed good for maintaining privacy, especially if you have a lot of bitcoins, but so far, Mixer has been widely used for criminal purposes.

The ban on mixers was caused by the desire of some superpowers to "look into your pockets" and know what you spend the contents of your wallet on. This knowledge will allow you to receive taxes from each future transaction.

For me, the role of mixers as a means of cleaning up stolen bitcoin seems exaggerated and a made-up "legend", under the pretext of which it is possible to ban. Ban what interferes with financial regulation.

Fraudulent mixers require a completely different discussion. Any activity aimed at fraud is unacceptable. The presence of fraudulent mixers is not a reason to ban "private" mixers.

Confidentiality is necessary with any number of bitcoin.

The statement that mixers were widely used for criminal purposes is practically no different from statements that bitcoin is widely used by criminals. If you want to label anything as "negative", then you just need to say that it is used for criminal purposes.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

Mixers are banned quite alright because of some reasons which may reduce the concentration of the government over the forum maybe in getting it down or so, but i will say this that only mixers are banned, but privacy with bitcoin still remains, we can go for it, have it and use our privacy the way we want, but not on this forum via mixers.

I think its more better if we lessen the way we often talked about mixers and their ban on the forum, so we can continue in life and on regular bitcoin discussions, because this decision has nothing to deny us of what we want bitcoin to do in our finical economy.

[ABCbits]

What about Monero. I tested it.

And I can't remember the outcome.

What about Monero? And what do you mean by you tested it and cannot remember the outcome. You can surely convert your BTC to Monero in a p2p exchange, move it around and send it back into a different p2p exchange, then convert it into BTC and send it in bits to different BTC addresses. It is a good method of privacy when done correctly. I can see the feedback on your profile, so i think you should start making your posts make meaning.

While it's possible, it's weird there aren't many post which mention the cost. P2P exchange may offer bad exchange rate due to low volume. There's also fee when using P2P and creating on-chain TX which could be costly on specific condition.

[Minor Miner]

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

But if i were to guess, i would say that converting bitcoin to other cryptocurrencies is much tasking than just using a mixer not to mention the price volatility that could affect the amount of bitcoin you are sending or receiving

There is no denying that one of the main benefits of using a Mixer is maintaining better privacy. because with mixer transactions, it will be much harder to trace the original source or destination of funds, so if someone wants to do something bad with our assets, it will be harder to track our financial activities. This can also be very useful for those who are concerned about their financial privacy or who live in countries with strict financial regulations.

But on the other hand, Mixer is also not a good idea and so far I also don't need Mixer because I don't have many bitcoins. The purpose of Mixer is often misused which eventually results in Mixer being banned in several countries, even on this forum, because Mixer is widely used to clean stolen Bitcoins, there are also Mixers that are fraudulent. Mixer is indeed good for maintaining privacy, especially if you have a lot of bitcoins, but so far, Mixer has been widely used for criminal purposes.

Everything has its pros and cons, and it all depends on how each person uses it.

As I see it, there are a lot of mixed opinions about mixers and I believe everyone is right because they are judging the issue from their own perspective and circumstances, rather than putting themselves in someone else's shoes.

But I don't think a complete ban on mixers is the right decision because, as you said, it also has benefits that help us increase privacy. I think the government banned it because they have difficulty controlling and managing us, they don't want us to be free, not because it is being widely used for criminal purposes as they say. If one day they ban bitcoin and give the reason that bitcoin is widely used for criminal purposes and a lot of criminals are using it. Do you agree with their decision?

Was Bitcoin created for criminal use? No, it was never created for criminal use, and neither were mixers. What I see is that the government has completely failed to prevent and control crime, and they are just looking for ways to blame others to cover up their failure. Have crime rates decreased since bitcoin mixers were banned?

[Kruw]

What is the alternative?
Any service at some point when it gathers enough users can turn into a scam. What is the suggestion to avoid this scenario?
we assume that p2p cannot be a solution for all cases.

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

Congratulations to the Wasabi and JoinMarket developers! JoinMarket pioneered a lot of CoinJoin science (and BTW, belcher wrote an excellent & comprehensive wiki article on privacy), while Wasabi is the first wallet that implements CoinJoin in both a highly-usable and sound way. As both a signer and a donor to the CoinJoin bounty fund, I'm thrilled that these two pieces of software exist!

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

[ml9999]

Bitcoin mixers are still useful, as exchanges can still flag transactions and can still monitor things like this, even when using XMR. For example, if you change $1,000 of BTC to XMR, and then a bit later you change $1,000 XMR to BTC, those transactions could be linked, especially if you did this repeatedly. Also, most reputable exchanges are KYC in order to comply with the law. That's not to say all non-KYC exchanges are bad, just that mainstream/KYC law-abiding ones are more likely to be trustworthy.

[fruktik]

You are the same guy who created a thread two years ago asking which method you should pick so the government cannot track you and you don't want to go to the jail. Why didn't you choose those non-KYC exchanges to clean your Bitcoin or send your funds to whoever you want? You yourself decided to use mixers and asked for help. You probably did not know about those non-exchanges, or the process is too long. Yeah, if someone can use privacy coins like Monero or Dash on exchanges and do it multiple times, you don't need mixers. But the Mixers have a good fanbase. We have Telegram does not mean whatsapp is useless.

Mixers make it much easier to obfuscate digital tracks so that a person's identity or personal data cannot be determined. In my opinion, this is a good tool that benefits those who want to remain anonymous when sending money. Who needs this? For example, opposition bloggers who have fallen out of favor with the government, as well as those who donate to such people.

[NotATether]

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

Both are flagged under chain analysis and forwarded for enhanced documentation though, in almost all cases.

You can't use most coinjoins and mixers and expect to be able to send the output to an exchange.

[fikrett]

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

Both are flagged under chain analysis and forwarded for enhanced documentation though, in almost all cases.

You can't use most coinjoins and mixers and expect to be able to send the output to an exchange.

If it's okay for you, could you explain it a bit further? Do you mean the transaction would be flagged as such afterward?

[NotATether]

If it's okay for you, could you explain it a bit further? Do you mean the transaction would be flagged as such afterward?

Although it is very difficult, almost impossible in some cases, to deduce who is sending a transaction to who in a coinjoin transaction, CoinJoins are so big and clustered that they are easy for anybody to see that there is a coinjoin happening on a block explorer.

These blockchain analysis companies see a list of successive coinjoin transactions done from several addresses, and usually incorrectly deduce that since CoinJoin services (or mixers) made these transactions, they must be inherently bad. Thus explaining the high risk score you always see when you check an address that's received funds from Wasabi/Samourai/mixers.

[examplens]

The alternative is coinjoining. Coinjoin transactions are strictly superior to "mixing sites" since you can't get scammed out of your funds, and no third parties are trusted not to leak your privacy. The forum admin strongly recommends coinjoining over "mixing sites":

The scam comes from people with bad intentions, not from service, how they will do it is a completely different matter.
Wasn't there a case of scam by the Wasabi coordinator a few months ago?

Also, you are taking the administrator's statement from 5 years ago, various things happened in the meantime. So, for example, Wasabi no longer has the Coinjoin function, it also does an AML check, which can no longer be classified in the context of what the admin wrote.

[Kruw]

The scam comes from people with bad intentions, not from service, how they will do it is a completely different matter.

No, the scam is the "service" itself: There is no privacy offered to users of "mixing sites", the operator has complete visibility into the source and destination of all transactions, just like the traditional banking system.

Wasn't there a case of scam by the Wasabi coordinator a few months ago?

A coordinator abused a bug to bypass the customizable fee limit that was added in a new release in order to charge the maximum allowed fee of 1%. So it was 1% of a scam I guess.

Also, you are taking the administrator's statement from 5 years ago, various things happened in the meantime. So, for example, Wasabi no longer has the Coinjoin function, it also does an AML check, which can no longer be classified in the context of what the admin wrote.

Wasabi still has the coinjoin function and doesn't do an AML check.