Do we even need bitcoin mixers?

[supporterofpeace]

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2' to a non/KYC exchange and change your XMR to BTC.

2. If you have 'dirty' bitcoin and you want a clear one, you should:
i) Go to a non-KYC exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2'q to an (even KYC) exchange and change it to BTC.

As I see it, there are non-KYC services where you can change BTC to XMR or XMR to BTC.
According to my research, e.g. changenow.io seems a KYC exchange, but they don't ask your documents, only in case of suspicious transactions. Or do you know surely non-KYC echanges with BTC <-> XMR change possibility?
What do i miss?

[1715286374]

1715286374

[1715286374]

1715286374

[1715286374]

1715286374

[franky1]

by using a btc-btc mixer, your inflow and outflow gets tagged as suspicious and gets on a watchlist.. defeating the purpose of using a mixer
by doing btc xmr btc is still a thing where the btc inflow and btc outflow gets tagged and gets on a watchlist.. defeating the purpose of using a AEC
(purpose being avoid being watched/tagged as needing to be watched)

you are more likely to have coins followed by an investigator by simply using a mixer/AEC compared to just spending coins

the only people that benefit is the criminals that have direct access to criminally known dirty coins that want to offload them to some idiot victim being told their clean coins are not good enough and need to mix them, but end up with the criminals dirty coins so that the criminal can walk away with cleaner coins with just a taint of suspicion of just mixing.. rather than a taint of criminality lowering the criminals suspicion threshold but raising the innocent persons suspicion threshold
..
the funniest part is
when mixer promoters try to tell victims btc is fungible "1btc is equal to 1btc". if the promoter truly believed that then they would not be trying to get people to use mixers nor need to use mixers themselves

however they only say the fungability script, to dupe idiots into thinking its ok to receive criminal coins and victim hands over clean coins

..
so here is the thing.
there are not enough investigators in the world to be watching everyone all the time.
each transaction may go through an algo that tags a suspicion percentage to a coin whereby if it reaches a threshold then an investigator looks at it. if the threshold is raised higher then its reported to authorities, if its higher the authorities get court orders to seek more information of service users deposited coins. then if the threshold is raised further then accounts are frozen

you dont get watched or have coins on accounts frozen just for using bitcoin. however using a mixer gets you watched.. and if you received dirty coins in that process you then get into issues of having to explain things.

so cut out the middle men dont be duped into thinking you should use a mixer and its fine to receive dirty coins because you were told by mixer promoters no harm comes to you.. because the opposite is try, chances of harm raise by using mixers/ AEC
if no harm can come from being handed criminal linked coins.. the the criminals wouldnt be so determined to promote ways for them to get rid of their coins via innocent clean coin victims being told to use mixers

mixers do not "wash" all coins to make all coins clean again.. they instead give criminals a method to offload dirty coins for innocent people to pick up

in short it only benefits the criminals

analogies
many people walk down a side walk doing their own thing.
if you are being told not to just walk the sidewalk like others but instead weave and dodge and hide behind bushes, even if you are not a criminal or done anything wrong. people will start looking at you more then you intended .. defeating the point of not wanting to be looked at
if a criminal says there is nothing wrong with what clothing someone wheres and all clothing is the same. so suggest you swap clothing with a criminal.. they get to walk off with your clothes and look innocent and you are suddenly now appearing as the criminals description

[supporterofpeace]

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

[franky1]

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

if just using 1 exchange there is no point using xmr at all, just use the exchanges own algo internally to ensure deposits are different to withdrawals (aka unadvertised mixing, by branding themselves as an exchange instead)

yes XMR can be used as the middle path to make sure deposited btc in exchange1 is not the same as withdrawn btc in exchange2 due to different btc reserves..
but that would require you using 2 exchanges to guarantee different reserves of btc for it to need XMR to traverse the 2 exchanges


XMR is by regulation standard a AEC (anonymity enhanced currency) which also flags up as suspicious if found users are converting btc to xmr.
so investigators do try to watch XMR too

so finding a service that does it without KYC becomes difficult because most advertised exchanges have to register as money service businesses and then comply to regulations..
any MSB not complying to regulations by not registering usually gets caught

[BlackBoss_]

In the process, there are points you disclosed your identity with KYC. There is too much dependence on Monero blockchain for fund transfer and mix through Monero blockchain.

Governments try to break down the Monero blockchain and they even announce big prize for anyone, any company can break down Monero privacy.

[Guide] Decent mixing methods

If you want privacy, at the start, you must avoid KYC first even with BTC transaction and trade, do it with non KYC exchanges.

[BabyBandit]

Good thread supporterofpeace

Simple answer: No we don't need mixers. - And what's the problem? people can still use them, but they cant earn money from them on a signature campaign, many users focus on totally wrong thing.

No we don't need bitcoin mixers, actually it's very few things we need in life, but we get addicted of stuff because we are humans and that's in our nature and we got that stuck in our brain.
So change the question to "Is mixers a good service?" "Should mixers not have been banned from the forum?" This is a hard question since many users is sad/angry because they lost an income because of the banning, so they will reply with emotions and feelings and that's only make everything wrong but I understand them. But it's better things to earn money from in life then posting posts on a forum but also they can still use mixers if they really need it. So I don't see the problem? And this nonsense that this forum is a decentralized place and everything should be illegal is just stupid, this forum is not a decentralized place since we got moderators that are in charge.

A lot of things is about money and greed and every human stand themself closest that's the hard reality and it's nothing wrong with that I just pointing it out, we are humans and our subconscious control what we do to 90%-95% so we need to train to put good things in our subconscious and remove the negativity, and yes I know what I am speaking about and this is hard and take years of practice but it's possible trust me.

And if you ask me I hope mixers get banned and shut down from the internet totally because they cause much more bad then good, how many actually using mixers here and for what reason, come on.. you know I know.  
I have no proof or statistic so I only man guessing, but try to see it this way how many using mixers for illegal purposes way and in how many in a legal way? Since all this "Expert hackers" using them when they empty innocent's people wallet for millions of millions even billions total worth of dollars using them we at least got some proof that a very high traffic is for illegal activities. So that's why I hope they get shut down completely, it will only make it harder for the scammers to get away with their shit, and yes probably they would find some other way yes, but we should always do what we can do to stop scamming and scammers instead of argue about things we cant affect at all we should focus on things we can affect and build up the crypto community even higher and increase the crypto reputation so more and more want to join it! If more people get into crypto then we all will be winners.
And we all here may not like each other or share opinions but we share one thing the love of crypto and decentralized places.. Focus on that instead and make that better instead of focus on things we can affect.
But in my opinion mixers don't serve a good purpose. And of course honest and good people using mixers to and I feel sorry for them yes, but sometime you need to give up something for a bigger purpose
And we humans are smart and always come up with new things and ideas. This will be good at the end! Trust me.   So for now, let the negativity out and let's get together as a group and let's start build up the crypto community.

Now the reply got quite long, sorry for that. Anyway have a great week everyone! New week and New possibilities.

Best regards.
/ BabyB.

[BlackBoss_]

Simple answer: No.

No we don't need bitcoin mixers, actually it's very few things we need in life, but we get addicted of stuff because we are humans and that's in our nature and we got that in our brain.

Yes and No, depends on you and others with different needs and different technical ability to use bitcoin in private manner.

If I am a non tech person, want to achieve privacy, but feel headache with Coin join transaction, I will have need to use mix services. It will cost me more but if I can afford to pay the service fee, I will use it.

If I am a person who does not care about privacy, mixing services are not in my thinking. KYC is not a big problem for me.

[BabyBandit]

Simple answer: No.

No we don't need bitcoin mixers, actually it's very few things we need in life, but we get addicted of stuff because we are humans and that's in our nature and we got that in our brain.

Yes and No, depends on you and others with different needs and different technical ability to use bitcoin in private manner.

If I am a non tech person, want to achieve privacy, but feel headache with Coin join transaction, I will have need to use mix services. It will cost me more but if I can afford to pay the service fee, I will use it.

If I am a person who does not care about privacy, mixing services are not in my thinking. KYC is not a big problem for me.

I get your point, but do we NEED them? or does them make things easier? And it's a very solid point. But I think we need to think bigger. For example: if 95% of the people using mixers doing it because illegal stuff and 5% doing it for legal stuff mixers should get banned from existing. As many other mention here it's many ways around it and if mixers shutdown I assure you it will be hell harder for the scammers to steal millions/billions from innocent people.
But as I said I get your point and I agree, but sometimes we need to give up om something good for a bigger purpose, and don't forget humans is smart and creative I am positive something new can come up that can offer some kind of same service but be able to cut off the fucking scammers that stealing huge amounts from innocent people.*
But also, people can still use mixers, but they cant earn money from them on this forum so I don't see the problem and this "decentralized blabla stuff" is just nonsense IMO. Because this place is not decentralized. We got a moderator that are in charge, tho this is a close as decentralized you can get I think. But people should stop focus on that mixers got banned and focus on find a job or something.  

If I am a person who does not care about privacy, mixing services are not in my thinking. KYC is not a big problem for me.

Here I am exactly the same.  

If I am a person who does not care about privacy, mixing services are not in my thinking. KYC is not a big problem for me.

And what is exactly is the problem here? Mixers is still up and active on the internet and everyone can use them!? The difference is that users her on bitcointalk cant make money out of them from a sign campaign. So all this does not make sense at all. Money is something you should earn from work and not from posting on a forum.
I think we should pause this discussion for 1-2 months and come back when everyone have lay their feelings behind them.  

Best regards.
/ BabyB

[Fundamentals Of]

There are alternatives for people who prefer to keep their privacy intact. The use of Bitcoin mixers is not the only way for a user to stay private. Having said this I think we really don't need Bitcoin mixers. We need ways to provide us privacy but Bitcoin mixers don't have the monopoly of this kind of service. The example given in the OP also provides privacy. CoinJoin also provides privacy in a manner that is legally acceptable. During these times when mixers are perceived negatively, there remains other ways to achieve what one can achieve with mixers.

[coinerer]

Mixing sites have been promoted on this forum for a long time but I have never used them. I know how they work but I haven't needed to use them. And now mixing platforms have been banned by Theymos due to many illegal activities being done in them. So I'm not encouraged to use the mixer platform. these platforms are useful for those who want to make large transactions secretly but not important for users like me.

[Kruw]

No, you do not need Bitcoin Mixers, and you don't need Monero either.  You can hold your own keys while turning your Bitcoins anonymous using coinjoin transactions.  Here's a massive coinjoin transaction for over 600 BTC that confirmed earlier this week:

Wasabi made 610 Bitcoins anonymous with a single coinjoin transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/fb596c9f675471019c60e984b569f9020dac3b2822b16396042b50c890b45e5e

[wallet4bitcoin]

I know that there is need to mix btc by some people who consider theirs' dirty or not wanting to be traced or tracked.

Some bridge I know can actually solve the problem of mixers even without coming out plainly to call themselves mixers.
Allbridge.io can actually help you mix without the need for kyc and without being traced but I guess nobody has seen them as that yet.

[hugeblack]

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.

If you have forgotten, more KYC exchanges have started to delist privacy coins^{[1] [2]}, and I believe that by the end of next year there will be no KYC exchanges that accept these privacy coins, and the government will try to track down the DEXs and may be able to force them not to list any privacy coins.
The only service available is P2P DEXs. Here, the government may create hundreds of honeypot accounts, and then, once you deposit, your coins will be blocked.

Therefore, we need a decentralized Bitcoin mixer, to which users contribute and whose goal is to enhance customer privacy.

Proposed solutions:

 - Enhancing privacy through side networks.
 - Confidential transactions (CT)^[3]
 - Find a decentralized way to mix the private key, something like a chipmixer but decentralized.

[1] https://www.okx.com/help/okx-to-delist-several-spot-trading-pairs-12-29
[2] Binance to Delist Monero, Zcash, and Other Privacy Coins As Regulatory Pressure Intensifies in Eu
[3] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Confidential_transactions

[jossiel]

Some of these non kyc exchanges might ask you out of the blue verifications especially when you're exchanging quite high amounts. They're still followers of their laws and regulations and that's why if you are to use them, don't do such with high amounts.

Tainted or not, it depends where you're going to send them or someone might just be paranoid because he/she is thinking that the tainted Bitcoins he's got needed to get cleaned.

Because services or likely another exchange where you will send them might have a reference to these 'dirty' Bitcoins. Otherwise, just IMO, it's not a matter of big concern.

[348Judah]

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

Mixers are quite different from exchanges, a mixer cannot perform the role and function of an exchange, even though we can use an exchange to serve as mixers but the intention for using a mixer would not be achieved by using a centralized exchanges, while a decentralized exchanges also can partly serve the role, but we have to make use of decentralized exchanges that are of high reputation because you later have to find out some may require you undergoing partly KYC while they have changes on their policies, I will recommend the use of these decentralized exchanges for that purpose.

Bisq
Hodl Hodl

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2' to a non/KYC exchange and change your XMR to BTC.

You talking about this is  when you're not privacy minded, the first reason for using a mixer is to avoid KYC which is the first step to guarantee your security, after that, before even talking about using XMR for your transactions, first consider the rate or amount you're trying to send first, could that also not be subjective to using KYC even for your account to be verified or to send a huge amounts of money.

2. If you have 'dirty' bitcoin and you want a clear one, you should:
i) Go to a non-KYC exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2'q to an (even KYC) exchange and change it to BTC.

Are you actually giving this to help those involved in shady acts, things like this are what makes the use of mixers become difficult for others to enjoy since they are tagged to be for illegal activities instead of serving for privacy.

[Learn Bitcoin]

What do i miss?

It's not like Bitcoin Mixers are too necessary for privacy. We can increase privacy following the methods you have shared. But, that's too much task to do. While Mixers take a few clicks only. When you could do it with a few clicks, why do you have to do that many transactions as an alternative? Mixers are banned in this forum, but they are still online. They are banned here does not mean we cannot use them.

Whoever used the mixers before and loved the idea will keep using them. Most of the forum users do not have dirty money to clean. I don't think forum users use Bitcoin mixers too much. The mixers do not expect huge traffic from the forum. They were here to build a reputation, so they could get trust from their users.

[BenCodie]

Simple answer: No.

No we don't need bitcoin mixers, actually it's very few things we need in life, but we get addicted of stuff because we are humans and that's in our nature and we got that in our brain.

Yes and No, depends on you and others with different needs and different technical ability to use bitcoin in private manner.

If I am a non tech person, want to achieve privacy, but feel headache with Coin join transaction, I will have need to use mix services. It will cost me more but if I can afford to pay the service fee, I will use it.

If I am a person who does not care about privacy, mixing services are not in my thinking. KYC is not a big problem for me.

I suppose this is the way to put it most simply, though it's not good practice to:
- Trust custodial services (let alone trust the coins within them) by default just because of laziness to learn basic technical features, like coinjoin.
- Using KYC services even if privacy is not a focus (privacy aside, this opens the door to identity compromise down the line).

No, you do not need Bitcoin Mixers, and you don't need Monero either.  You can hold your own keys while turning your Bitcoins anonymous using coinjoin transactions.  Here's a massive coinjoin transaction for over 600 BTC that confirmed earlier this week:

What do i miss?

It's not like Bitcoin Mixers are too necessary for privacy. We can increase privacy following the methods you have shared. But, that's too much task to do. While Mixers take a few clicks only. When you could do it with a few clicks, why do you have to do that many transactions as an alternative? Mixers are banned in this forum, but they are still online. They are banned here does not mean we cannot use them.

Whoever used the mixers before and loved the idea will keep using them. Most of the forum users do not have dirty money to clean. I don't think forum users use Bitcoin mixers too much. The mixers do not expect huge traffic from the forum. They were here to build a reputation, so they could get trust from their users.

Overall accurate points, +1

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

XMR is by regulation standard a AEC (anonymity enhanced currency) which also flags up as suspicious if found users are converting btc to xmr.
so investigators do try to watch XMR too

Measuring Mixers vs. Monero in the eyes of regulation or the "algorithm"/"flags" would be an interesting visualization, if there ever was one. I don't think it's right to consider all Monero transactions as suspicious and I think that it would be infeasible to flag them all as suspicious, it would also be difficult track Monero > Other cryptocurrency transactions where a non-kyc service is being used.

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

so finding a service that does it without KYC becomes difficult because most advertised exchanges have to register as money service businesses and then comply to regulations..
any MSB not complying to regulations by not registering usually gets caught

It would depend on the jurisdiction as well as the way it is operated.

[EarnOnVictor]

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.
A non-KYC exchange solves the mixer problem where Bitcoin and Monero are available too.

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:
i) Go to an (even KYC) exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2' to a non/KYC exchange and change your XMR to BTC.

2. If you have 'dirty' bitcoin and you want a clear one, you should:
i) Go to a non-KYC exchange, where you change your BTC to XMR.
ii) Send the XMR to 'monero_address_1'.
iii) Send the XMR from 'monero_address_1' to 'monero_address_2' outside of the exchange.
iiii) Send XMR from 'monero_address_2'q to an (even KYC) exchange and change it to BTC.

As I see it, there are non-KYC services where you can change BTC to XMR or XMR to BTC.
According to my research, e.g. changenow.io seems a KYC exchange, but they don't ask your documents, only in case of suspicious transactions. Or do you know surely non-KYC echanges with BTC <-> XMR change possibility?
What do i miss?

I like the number one plan, it is a good approach for those who want their Bitcoin private for security and personal reasons with no strings attached. But what you are missing according to your question is encouraging "dirty Bitcoin." Should I say I detest this? Your insensitivity is what is missing and you should have just limited it to the first suggestion.

Bitcoin is a very good project, a near-perfect one for that matter if bad users could be kicked out. And no wonder Monero is a subject of controversy now and some exchanges are beginning to flag it for further studies before they act upon it.

[btc78]

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

But if i were to guess, i would say that converting bitcoin to other cryptocurrencies is much tasking than just using a mixer not to mention the price volatility that could affect the amount of bitcoin you are sending or receiving

[BALIK]

I personally do not feel the need for mixers or any method of transactions that keeps privacy as I have no particular use for them at least as of now

But if i were to guess, i would say that converting bitcoin to other cryptocurrencies is much tasking than just using a mixer not to mention the price volatility that could affect the amount of bitcoin you are sending or receiving

Many people have no need to use mixers and consider them unnecessary because they don't have too many bitcoins. But I believe if you or anyone owns a lot of bitcoins or huge amount of assets, you will definitely need mixing tools or any tools to enhance your privacy.

The majority of investors in the market only focus on making profits rather than focusing on protecting their privacy. So it's not too surprising that mixer services are still not widely used or used much.