Any Bisq experts here?

[takuma sato]

Im trying to find someone with experience on Bisq as I would like to give this a try. I would need to have some cash disposable each month without KYC. From all the options that Bisq offers, the only one I see as viable is cash by mail. Since the alternatives are to do bank transfers, which would leave a record for the taxman to ask about in x years, or meeting with random people, which is dangerous for obvious reason, the only alternative I see is to receive some cash bills on an envelope. Of course, this presents many concers from security and privacy pov, namely:

1) How do you find a seller you could trust?
2) How do you request a reasonable amount? what one should expect with this method?
3) How do you keep yourself safe from being tracked as the person that received the cash?
4) If you can use alternative addresses that aren't your home for obvious reasons, then what would these be?
5) What are some realistic fees to expect in this method?
6) How much time should you wait for the cash to arrive before you start to worry and what if it doesn't arrive?

Im just trying to understand how process works. Would be really handy to be able to sell a discrete amount each month for physical cash usage. Unfortunately the people accepting BTC are still a tiny %, and with current fees, it is too slow and expensive for cash usage anyway, I prefer to have the physical cash.

[alterra57]

To answer your questions:

1) How do you find a seller you could trust?

Cash by mail is usually used by people who already have some sort of a relationship with the other party, there needs to be some trust but even then, it's just some random guy on the other side of the screen. With that being said, back when I used Bisq (it's been 2+ years) there was good people in there, business people, so it was very rare for someone to cause any trouble. My advice, stick to traders with a high rating and that haven't had any troubles within the past 6 months to a year.

2) How do you request a reasonable amount? what one should expect with this method?

I'm not sure what you mean by reasonable amount, every trader has their own limits depending on the exchange method. It is difficult for admins to figure out who's at fault if something goes wrong, you might receive fake bills or nothing at all, the only way to prove that would be by recording a video in which you go and pick the package up and then open it (while filming), there goes your privacy if you have to share video proof of your location and filming all the time is weird.

Then there's the risk the package gets stolen in transit, I don't know where you live but this seems to be a problem for US, I haven't really heard of packages getting stolen in EU. This is senders problem tho so don't sweat it, unless taxman intercepts it.

3) How do you keep yourself safe from being tracked as the person that received the cash?

Don't use your address. A PO box under another persons name (a friend) is not great but it's better than having it under your own name. At the end of the day, if you send or receive using a bank account you don't give up your home address, that way someone will always know there's Bitcoin at a specific location  .

4) If you can use alternative addresses that aren't your home for obvious reasons, then what would these be?

Neighbors address, your name.

5) What are some realistic fees to expect in this method?

Anything from 5% to 70%, it depends on the seller and marketplace.

6) How much time should you wait for the cash to arrive before you start to worry and what if it doesn't arrive?

There's not a specific time for this, everything depends on the time of the year, shipping method and location. If it's December, delays are expected because of Christmas and NY orders. If it's shipped using slow mail and not express it will take longer for it to arrive. Then it depends if it is a domestic or international shipment with the latter taking longer.


These are my own opinions based on what I've seen and worked with myself. It is different for me and it will be different for you. For a lot of people cash by mail is a pain in the butt and some others find it overkill. Good luck in your trades good sir.

[takuma sato]

Thanks a lot for the replies. As it stands, I do not see any clear way to use Bitcoin in a way that could give you non KYC cash that doesn't entail a lot of risk. Unless you have trusted people to share for cash, and know these people will not betray you in the future which is not really predictable, then you are risking a lot. Cash by mail is indeed pretty dodgy. If you find someone that has a good rating, you will be buying from these people a lot of times, so you are telling them you have BTC that gets send to some PO box. Also getting people involved (as you mentioned, asking a friend to put their name on this) is not very realistic. At the end of the day, I don't see any use for BTC that has no KYC unless you can pay directly with BTC, so I hope it becomes more mainstream eventually. And of course, there's the problem of the fees etc, and I have no idea how LN works yet.

[btcinfo891]

In some EU countries there are crypto ATMs that don't require KYC and where you can send crypto and withdraw physical cash. Providing a mobile phone number is optional, so you don't have to provide one if you don't want. The max amount per transaction varies based on the country's laws, but in most cases it is in the range 1,000 - 3,000 EUR. And if you don't provide any KYC you can make multiple transactions as long as the ATMs have available cash in them. The fees vary but usually are in the range 6% - 10%, depending on the cryptocurrency that you use.

Another option is if you live in a big city you can meet traders in person and exchange crypto for physical cash. Fees are usually higher than with the crypto ATMs, but in most cases are in the range 10%-50%.

I think P2P trading via bank accounts or cash by mail is not a good idea, because either way (bank or mail) you essentially provide your KYC to the government or other interested parties.

[dkbit98]

Thanks a lot for the replies. As it stands, I do not see any clear way to use Bitcoin in a way that could give you non KYC cash that doesn't entail a lot of risk.

What risks are you talking about? And what exactly is non-kyc cash?
There is nothing risk-free in life, walking outside, buying food, swimming, eating... risk is with everything, so all we can do is to minimize risks.
If you are afraid to go outside, meet people, and trade Bitcoin P2P than you have much bigger problems in your life  

At the end of the day, I don't see any use for BTC that has no KYC unless you can pay directly with BTC, so I hope it becomes more mainstream eventually. And of course, there's the problem of the fees etc, and I have no idea how LN works yet.

I can pay with Bitcoin in multiple shops and buy almost anything... nobody ever asked me if my BTC has kyc or not.
And I can easily buy anything with Bitcoin directly using website like ShopinBit, (Mercari soon), or indirectly using websites like Zenmarket.

PS
LN won't bite you.

[tridentobedient]

Im trying to find someone with experience on Bisq as I would like to give this a try. I would need to have some cash disposable each month without KYC. From all the options that Bisq offers, the only one I see as viable is cash by mail. Since the alternatives are to do bank transfers, which would leave a record for the taxman to ask about in x years, or meeting with random people, which is dangerous for obvious reason, the only alternative I see is to receive some cash bills on an envelope. Of course, this presents many concers from security and privacy pov, namely:

1) How do you find a seller you could trust?
2) How do you request a reasonable amount? what one should expect with this method?
3) How do you keep yourself safe from being tracked as the person that received the cash?
4) If you can use alternative addresses that aren't your home for obvious reasons, then what would these be?
5) What are some realistic fees to expect in this method doodle jump
6) How much time should you wait for the cash to arrive before you start to worry and what if it doesn't arrive?

Im just trying to understand how process works. Would be really handy to be able to sell a discrete amount each month for physical cash usage. Unfortunately the people accepting BTC are still a tiny %, and with current fees, it is too slow and expensive for cash usage anyway, I prefer to have the physical cash.

You also have the option of meeting traders in person and trading bitcoin for real cash if you live in a major city. This is an alternative that you might consider. The fees are often higher than those that are imposed by automated teller machines (ATMs) that accept cryptocurrencies, but in the majority of cases, they range anywhere from 10 to 50 percent.

[takuma sato]

In some EU countries there are crypto ATMs that don't require KYC and where you can send crypto and withdraw physical cash. Providing a mobile phone number is optional, so you don't have to provide one if you don't want. The max amount per transaction varies based on the country's laws, but in most cases it is in the range 1,000 - 3,000 EUR. And if you don't provide any KYC you can make multiple transactions as long as the ATMs have available cash in them. The fees vary but usually are in the range 6% - 10%, depending on the cryptocurrency that you use.

Another option is if you live in a big city you can meet traders in person and exchange crypto for physical cash. Fees are usually higher than with the crypto ATMs, but in most cases are in the range 10%-50%.

I think P2P trading via bank accounts or cash by mail is not a good idea, because either way (bank or mail) you essentially provide your KYC to the government or other interested parties.

Which ATM's I guess you mean shitcoin.club brand because everyone else is already under KYC/AML stuff, and from the shitcoin.club ATM's that still remain free, they are slowly but surely going to force KYC into every single ATM in the world, of at least the developed first world, I have no idea how it works on the rest. The thing is, even in the so called free of KYC ATMs like shitcoin.club, you are still trusting that they don't have undisclosed deals with the government. Realize the fact that these ATM's record you, and there are recordings nearby as well, you can get profiled. There's also the annoyance of ATM's not having funds when you are withdrawing. shitcoin.club shows current funds per ATM on some spots but I doubt the websites I doubt are updated in real time.

It is ultimately just not convenient to use these. Soon it will just be impossible. At the end of the day we are going to need to really push the currency side of BTC because trading for cash will just be mission impossible.

[btcinfo891]

Which ATM's I guess you mean shitcoin.club brand because everyone else is already under KYC/AML stuff

Initially I did not mention ATM brands because I did not want to advertise them, but yes shitcoins.club are the ones that that have a brand name, don't require KYC, phone number or email. Also I think that their buy/sell spread is the one of the lowest among the crypto ATMs that I checked. Right now if you buy/sell DASH, the spread is about 10%, which means that in one direction it will cost you about 5%, which is a very good deal, if you want no KYC for a low price

There is at least one other vendor in my vicinity which has crypto ATMs under the name "Bitcoin ATM" (I am not sure what is the real name under which they are registered). They say that they don't require KYC, phone or email either. Again you can get cash, and their max. limit is slightly higher than the one imposed by shitcoins.club, again depending on the country's legal limits. My guess is that if you look around there might be other vendors too.

There's also the annoyance of ATM's not having funds when you are withdrawing. shitcoin.club shows current funds per ATM on some spots but I doubt the websites I doubt are updated in real time.

shitcoins.club seems to be updated in realtime or at least daily. When they run out of funds they are refilled within 24 hours, but I guess it probably varies depending on the ATM location.

The thing is, even in the so called free of KYC ATMs like shitcoin.club, you are still trusting that they don't have undisclosed deals with the government. Realize the fact that these ATM's record you, and there are recordings nearby as well, you can get profiled.

I agree that there is the risk that they might be cooperating with the government(s) and/or profiling you, but then again, with the crypto ATMs you know that they might be doing that, while with the banks you can be sure that they are doing that because they are required by the law to do that. Those using bank services are completely transparent to the government and being profiled and analyzed in realtime. Additionally they record and store that information for at least 10 years back in time.

Cash by mail is a moot point and varies on the jurisdiction. It is either illegal or legal if you declare it or if you don't declare it then it might not arrive or even worse arrive but be reported to the government at the same time.

One other option is just looking on the social networks for local groups that are interested in crypto. I know that shitcoins.club have a facebook group and most likely they are not the only one. So my guess is that one could use these online groups to establish connections with other crypto enthusiasts and then meet them in person to trade crypto for cash. Again again, one does not have to use his real when registering in these online groups...

Soon it will just be impossible

I agree that soon the time will come when all crypto ATMs will be forced by law to require detailed KYC for each transaction. So it is important by that time to have established horizontal connections with other reliable people that you can meet in person and trade crypto for cash.

At the end of the day we are going to need to really push the currency side of BTC because trading for cash will just be mission impossible.

It is nice to use crypto as real currency but we must be realistic. The currency side of the crypto is the most dangerous one to the governments and they will do anything they can to prevent that from happening. If the government cannot control the money that circulates on its territory, then it essentially cannot control anything going on on its territory. So I think that crypto will be legal tender only in relatively poor countries with unstable financial systems. And even then they will only allow transparent currencies like BTC which have very little privacy. For example I don't think that they will allow Monero, which is arguably the real crypto currency unlike the ones with transparent blockchains.

So we have to be realistic with our expectations and look for KYC-less ways to convert crypto for cash. The real trouble will be when they introduce CBDCs and phase out cash. Then we will be living in a totalitarian dystopian society where it will be possible for the government to monitor anyone in almost reatime and "cancel" anyone just with a few clicks on the keyboard. Until then I think meeting a reliable acquaintance in person and trading crypto for cash is the method that works best. Then again your mileage may vary and cash by mail or other method might suit you better.

[takuma sato]

So we have to be realistic with our expectations and look for KYC-less ways to convert crypto for cash. The real trouble will be when they introduce CBDCs and phase out cash. Then we will be living in a totalitarian dystopian society where it will be possible for the government to monitor anyone in almost reatime and "cancel" anyone just with a few clicks on the keyboard. Until then I think meeting a reliable acquaintance in person and trading crypto for cash is the method that works best. Then again your mileage may vary and cash by mail or other method might suit you better.

Have you visited shitcoin.club places? there's a sign that says, "we are recording you and we will store this data for X hours". You are supposed to believe that the recording is for security purposes presumably, and you also have to believe this is not stored and handed to third parties as requested. There also have been hacks of ATM businesses that revealed customer data. It's one of those things. There's too much risk with KYC'ing your stuff, your data can be out in the wild and you become a target for thieves.

If you can find someone you trust I guess that is the way to go, but there is no way for me to trust some random people. Who knows who the hell are you meeting. They may 5$ wrench on you and run with the funds. You are also revealing yourself as a BTC holder which is not smart.

I guess when CBCDs arrive and they ban cash, then the transition to using Bitcoin as a currency will be natural irrespective of what governments have to say about it, because there will always be a demand for cash. The problem is, BTC is not viable as a currency, unless LN doesn't suck for the mainstream user and I have never used it so I can't say for sure.