Bitcoin EFTs are bad for Bitcoin as a decentralized digital currency.

[we-btc]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

[1714843273]

1714843273

[NeuroticFish]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

A good and simple tool can always be used for its intended purpose and for other things too.

We will emphasize here "not your keys, not your coins".
Others will prefer going through Wall Street companies because that's how they know to invest into this. It's suboptimal, but it's not prohibited. It will be interesting to watch what happens when first of these will get a hack or something, but on the other hand, don't we already have a long history of exchange hacks and people keeping their coins at exchanges? So.. let's just stay real, OK?

[Zlantann]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

Recently SEC chairman Gary Gensler took a swipe at some people calling the ETF historic. He reminded them that the approval of these eleven spot ETFs is a win for centralisation which is a clear deviation from how Bitcoin was designed to function. This is an indication that they might have some hidden agenda behind this approval. After the fall of FTX, many people understood the importance of keeping your keys which led to massive transfer of funds to to non-custodial wallets. Nobody can stop these centralized investors from putting money into the Bitcoin space, so we just have to wait to see the long-run outcome of all the hype surrounding the ETF. But we will not stop announcing that not your keys, not your coins, however, people are free to choose between freedom and bondage.

[we-btc]

Others will prefer going through Wall Street companies because that's how they know to invest into this.

This exactly the response that the banks are looking for.

The problem Bitcoin was intended to solve:

When a centralized authority can print money as needed it can tax its citizens without representation.

Bitcoin has a limited supply so that if it were adopted as a currency it could stop this practice.  If Bitcoin is not used as a currency then it is simply an investment.  This would be a sub optimal use of Bitcoin.  Now add total bank control of that investment opportunity and you have completely eliminated Bitcoin's intended purpose.

Banks have turned bitcoin into a profit making vehicle for banks and eliminated the intended benefit of Bitcoin for the users.

Bitcoin is not an investment vehicle.  If it is not a currency, what value does it have?

It takes a lot of energy to mine/create a bitcoin.  What is the underlying value?

Banks understand this and most people do not.  They have turned a potential threat to their control into a profit making opportunity and the people who it was meant to help don't realize it.

[criptoevangelista]

One of the reasons that bitcoin was created was to be an alternative to banks and the traditional financial system that only devalues fiat currency.

But what I see today are many people celebrating that bitcoin is being traded through the traditional market...

It's really contradictory, right? Are the fundamentals worthless to the majority?

[Dunamisx]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

Of course the intention for bitcoin ETF is not on the bitcoin network itself, but for other reputable organizations to make use of bitcoin market price to make sell or estimate the rate, worth or value of their assets invested on commodities under a centralized institutions, that's just a simple idea behind the whole show, but to us as bitcoiners, we are seing it as an added advantage to help get more recognition, value bitcoin and also win the interest of as many to that were already against bitcoin adoption such as the government, so this actually increasing the applications of bitcoin under it's use case.

[NeuroticFish]

They have turned a potential threat to their control into a profit making opportunity and the people who it was meant to help don't realize it.

I do realize that.

But sadly most people are unable to acquire bitcoin - too poor, too uninformed/disinformed and so on. And also sadly, even here, where some of us may know this or that, the vast majority is in for the money, not for the tech, not even for the freedom it was supposed to bring.

I think that Hal was one of the first ones realizing that Bitcoin can easily become a reserve currency instead of a currency for the mases.


So let's see:
* banks are evil - we know that
* ETFs give money to banks and wall street, but also make Bitcoin scarcer for future buyers - we expect that, but wait, this might also make us rich and also might stabilize the price. Interestingly this didn't concern you.
* ETFs will keep a huge amount of bitcoins under centralized storage, while some companies will buy IOUs for getting richer. Should I care about them, as long as I can buy actual Bitcoin and keep in my own wallet?!!

[we-btc]

but to us as bitcoiners, we are seing it as an added advantage to help get more recognition

The increased visibility will only serve to benefit the banks controlling access to Bitcoin and making money on each transaction.

Bitcoin needs to be decentralized and peer-to-peer otherwise it does not serve its intended purpose.

The value of Bitcoin comes from the perception that it could be used as a currency or products and services being priced in Bitcoin.

The Banks are quietly and not so secretly putting controls in place so that it is not a threat to their control and they can profit from it like they do any other security.
 

[Upgrade00]

The problem Bitcoin was intended to solve:

When a centralized authority can print money as needed it can tax its citizens without representation.
Bitcoin has a limited supply so that if it were adopted as a currency it could stop this practice.

Bitcoin was not intended to stop money printing or solve the broken centralized financial system. Fiat would always exist and be in use, Bitcoin gives you the option to not be part of that system.

Should I care about them, as long as I can buy actual Bitcoin and keep in my own wallet?!!

I will opine that the more bitcoins we have in control of centralized agencies, the harder it will get to avoid using those services, making the cost of privacy go higher, maybe to criminal levels?

[franky1]

alot of people fear the ETF and people(jamie dimon) lobbying regulators(sec) will want to now control the open spot market and peoples access to real natural bitcoin

much like how wheat was natural, was not patent-able, and was openly farmed, harvested and produced by family farms. until it was commoditised
GMO: "not your seed, not your wheat"

ill post this instead of retyping

here is the way to imagine it

swap real/spot bitcoin for natural wheat
swap ETF locked bitcoin for GMO wheat
swap SEC for EPA
swap CEX/de-fi for local/independent farms
swap ETF for big agri
swap AP for industrial farms
swap asset for commodity

now here is the story
big agri commodity traders want to control wheat trade deals. control the price and such. so they lobby the EPA to restrict family farms from doing trade/harvesting of natural wheat so that big-agri can have advantage. they want to unnaturalise wheat into two categories. dirty wheat and clean monsanto GMO wheat

they send inspectors out to advertise family farms should clean natural wheat and offer services. they then claim the family farms are using natural wheat,  tainted with plague or not registering their wheat seed as being GMO wheat legitimatly, so sue the family farms. the EPA also come along and require family farms to meet higher standards of processing natural wheat compared to GMO wheat from big agri. because big agri can self regulate

industrial farms wants the commodity wheat exposure for trading but doesnt want the local independent farms wheat as they sees it as dirty unregistered stuff
....
reality check
wheat is not fraud. it suppose to be natural and un-patent-able... but in big agri eyes they see it as plague wheat or non GMO wheat, or unregistered use of GMO wheat. all of which they dont want independent family farms trading without central permission and higher standards and inspections


make sense?
the game is not new

[coolcoinz]

I don't buy ETF because I'm a normal person who doesn't report buys to the government, but if you're a large company, ETFs might be your only option to get Bitcoin exposure.

If you criticize ETFs, how are you going to stop them from buying? They're a market participant like many other people and have the right to trade like anybody else.
The more they suck from the market the less bitcoin there's left for the rest to trade which means supply squeeze- I'd say that's good for bitcoin holders.

[we-btc]

One of the reasons that bitcoin was created was to be an alternative to banks and the traditional financial system that only devalues fiat currency.

But what I see today are many people celebrating that bitcoin is being traded through the traditional market...

It's really contradictory, right? Are the fundamentals worthless to the majority?

This forum is what I would consider to be the home of the Bitcoin core.  This should be the place where Bitcoin's core tenants are fought for.  But instead, Bitcoin is being sold down the river as fast here as it is in the general public.

Most people I talk to don't understand the basics of Bitcoin but people on this forum, as a general rule, should be fighting for Bitcoin.  

If Bitcoin is not a decentralized currency then what is it?

[we-btc]

which means supply squeeze- I'd say that's good for bitcoin holders.

If you want a decentralized currency that is peer-to-peer then how is that good for Bitcoin. It only servers to give banks more control of peoples money.

If you look at Bitcoin as an investment, which is what the banks want, then an increase in price will benefit Bitcoin holders.  Who holds the largest percentage of Bitcoin? Large institutions and wealthy individuals? A run up in price will make the rich richer and our greed will give them complete control of the one thing that could have transferred the wealth back to the people who create it.

The issue here is that individuals work and large institutions(banks) control the representation of that work(money).  The people who work should be paid with a currency that is controlled by them and can not be inflated(stolen/taxed) without their permission.

Don't lose sight of what Bitcoin was meant to do!!!!!

[Upgrade00]

Most people I talk to don't understand the basics of Bitcoin but people on this forum, as a general rule, should be fighting for Bitcoin.  

Trust me, users here understand Bitcoin and are strict supporters of its privacy and decentralization. Just look up topics on freedom and privacy and you'll get so many instances of it.

We can't fight against ETFs and also understand that it is the only access some institutions have to Bitcoin.

As a second point, multiple posting on the forum is not allowed. Best to edit your new post into the first one.

[we-btc]

Trust me, users here understand Bitcoin and are strict supporters of its privacy and decentralization.

As everyone understands here, Bitcoin is a public ledger.  Privacy is not one of it's core tenants. As a matter of fact, one of the arguments we use to defend Bitcoin as a tool for criminals is that all transactions are recorded on a public ledger so it would be stupid for criminals to use it to commit a crime.

Bitcoin was created to be a currency that is decentralized and peer to peer with limited supply.  It is decentralized so that no one organization can create more of it.  In order for it to be decentralized it must be peer-to-peer.

Not one application created for bitcoin except Core is truly peer-to-peer.  In order for a transaction to be truly peer-to-peer both parties must be using their own node. If they are not then a third party node is in use and a third party is involved in the transaction. Satoshi made this very clear. That is why the node was designed to work on a standard PC.

ETFs are the ultimate third party.  Banks will custody it, KYC you and hypothecate Bitcoin just like they hypothecate other currencies.

 

[GreatArkansas]

(...)
Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

I agree with it but it is really how it works, it is legal to do it.
Just like what happened in Gold when there was the first ETF. It is like you are owning a fake Bitcoin, not actual Bitcoin, you just had a paper or a data that is stored in the database that telling you own x amount of Bitcoin.

[hatshepsut93]

Bitcoin failed as a currency because it can't process a lot of transactions per second and the precise is too volatile for economic planning. But instead Bitcoin thrived as an investment, and already on this forum most users are interested in its price growing rather than using it as a currency. The anti-fiat and anti-bank rhetoric is mostly just empty talk for hyping up the market.

[criptoevangelista]

One of the reasons that bitcoin was created was to be an alternative to banks and the traditional financial system that only devalues fiat currency.

But what I see today are many people celebrating that bitcoin is being traded through the traditional market...

It's really contradictory, right? Are the fundamentals worthless to the majority?

This forum is what I would consider to be the home of the Bitcoin core.  This should be the place where Bitcoin's core tenants are fought for.  But instead, Bitcoin is being sold down the river as fast here as it is in the general public.

Most people I talk to don't understand the basics of Bitcoin but people on this forum, as a general rule, should be fighting for Bitcoin.  

If Bitcoin is not a decentralized currency then what is it?

The vast majority of people I know also don't understand absolutely anything about bitcoin, we need to do the work of converting people to really understand bitcoin, it's a shame that the vast majority only come for greed in times of ATH.

Anyway, our generation is not yet ready for mass adoption, I believe that only our children and grandchildren will be able to understand bitcoin as they will be born into a world where it already exists.

[BlackBoss_]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

It is true that "Not your keys, not your bitcoins" and it is risky if you spent money and in return, you don't own the private key and don't own your bitcoins. It is actually not your bitcoins even you already spent money with a deal to purchase bitcoin.

It is risky practice to invest in Bitcoin through Bitcoin Spot ETFs but something to know. As a small investor, you won't be able to buy Bitcoin Spot ETF shares directly and will also have to use middleman companies. It increases the risk.

If people felt safe with custodial wallets, centralized exchanges, they can trust Bitcoin Spot ETFs even it's risky. There are many options and they are responsible for picking risky ones.

In another view, Bitcoin Spot ETFs will have to use money from investors to buy bitcoins before they can issue their Bitcoin Spot ETF shares. The point is new capital, that is big, will appear in Bitcoin market. Those companies can buy bitcoin from OTC market or Spot market but soon they will have to buy it directly on Spot market because available bitcoin on OTC market are not enough for their big capital and demand.

[BALIK]

One of the reasons that bitcoin was created was to be an alternative to banks and the traditional financial system that only devalues fiat currency.

But what I see today are many people celebrating that bitcoin is being traded through the traditional market...

It's really contradictory, right? Are the fundamentals worthless to the majority?

Everything has pros and cons, many people celebrate the approval of bitcoin ETFs because bitcoin will get more attention from people and the demand for bitcoin will increase from there. But there's nothing wrong with many people being concerned that bitcoin will become more centralized with bitcoin ETFs, but again, everything has its pros and cons. You cannot ask for 100% perfection. Just as many people demand the highest level of privacy, they also want bitcoin to become a currency and be globally popular. Isn't that contradictory?