Bitcoin EFTs are bad for Bitcoin as a decentralized digital currency.

[LoyceV]

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

One the one hand: yes, ETFs are the opposite of what I'd want to use. But on the other hand: Bitcoin gives anyone the freedom to use it the way they want. If they want to risk fractional reserve Bitcoin, let them.

Many exchanges have lost their coins in the past. This will eventually happen to an ETF too.

Bitcoin is not an investment vehicle.  If it is not a currency, what value does it have?

I guess it's a bit of both.

There's another benefit to people keeping coins on exchanges or ETFs: the blockchain simply can't handle more on-chain transactions. Current estimates of the number of "Bitcoin owners" are several timse larger than the total number of funded Bitcoin addresses. That can't all happen on-chain, without massive increases in block size.

Most people here have thrown in the towel.  Bitcoin is not now, and will never be a currency!!!!!

I can use Bitcoin right now to order dinner. Of course it's a currency.

My initial take on blockchain, as a technology, is that it could never scale even remotely close to what would be necessary to provide a mainstream payment system. As in, it could never get to even one thousandth of the scale and efficiency necessary to handle even world-wide credit card payments, let alone usurp other forms of payment like cash.

On-chain solutions can't, because storing a quarter trillion VISA payments per year in a decentralized way is simply not viable. That would require massive data centers. But off-chain solutions have the potential to do this: the Lightning Network for instance doesn't need to store all transactions, each node only has to store the current state of it's own channels. Except for the problem of on-chain channel creation, this has the potential to scale very well.

I may even consider using a Bitcoin ETF: unlike my own keys, an ETF comes with tax benefits for pension savings. But that would also mean I have to trust the ETF for decades, and I'm not ready to do that yet.

Banks are just trying to remain relevant

[kryptqnick]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

I think that Bitcoin is about financial freedom, and financial freedom, like any other freedom, is about having a choice. Bitcoin gives us a choice, a way of being our own banks, of using a currency that nobody is issuing and controlling in a centralized way. But freedom means that people can also choose other things, they aren't forced to be pro-decentralization, pro-privacy, etc. Bitcoin ETFs, just like centralized exchanges and custodial wallets, will find their customers. It's just an option that will become available to some people. While Bitcoin, in its pure form, remains an option, I don't have a problem with people having other, more centralized options.

[Natsuu]

Bitcoin ETFs could mess with Bitcoin's whole vibe of being decentralized. People worry that as these ETFs get fancier, they might attract more rules and tie Bitcoin to the old-school financial system, risking its freewheeling independence. It's like, can Bitcoin stay true to its rebellious roots with all these big players getting involved? Tho some people think these ETFs could bring more people into the crypto game, making it more legit. But yeah, the debate rages on about how to keep the balance between going mainstream and staying true to Bitcoin's wild side.

[KiaKia]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

You are right, but only if people can see things this way, I was mad about everything but I have a thought about the human mind and I quit, since no one can control the mind of the people it's impossible to tell people what they should do with their Bitcoin.

I always wonder what would have happen to Bitcoin if all its adopters never use Centralized exchanges for once, if all adopters decentralization and only trade Bitcoin using Dexes and Peer to Peer I wonder if centralized exchanges will survive or become a thing today?

Now ETF is even trying to confuse the not so smart investors that Bitcoin is centralized, because this is what ETF is looking like to me, it will be foolish to go with the ETFs and leave behind the real decentralized digital currency, but anyway, since the world is full of foolish people they will surely go the route of the ETFs.

It's not everyone that deserves Bitcoin.

[kro55]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

You are right, but only if people can see things this way, I was mad about everything but I have a thought about the human mind and I quit, since no one can control the mind of the people it's impossible to tell people what they should do with their Bitcoin.

I always wonder what would have happen to Bitcoin if all its adopters never use Centralized exchanges for once, if all adopters decentralization and only trade Bitcoin using Dexes and Peer to Peer I wonder if centralized exchanges will survive or become a thing today?

Now ETF is even trying to confuse the not so smart investors that Bitcoin is centralized, because this is what ETF is looking like to me, it will be foolish to go with the ETFs and leave behind the real decentralized digital currency, but anyway, since the world is full of foolish people they will surely go the route of the ETFs.

It's not everyone that deserves Bitcoin.

But without centralized exchanges and ETFs, would bitcoin be as popular and successful as it is today? It is true that centralized exchanges, ETFs will gradually make bitcoin more centralized, but on the other hand, it will make bitcoin more popular and accessible to everyone. I believe that any of us who are new to the market need the support of centralized exchanges. So it can be said that everything has its pros and cons, so we cannot criticize those who support centralized exchanges and ETFs. They also have their reasons when they support those things.

[Helena Yu]

But without centralized exchanges and ETFs, would bitcoin be as popular and successful as it is today? It is true that centralized exchanges, ETFs will gradually make bitcoin more centralized, but on the other hand, it will make bitcoin more popular and accessible to everyone. I believe that any of us who are new to the market need the support of centralized exchanges. So it can be said that everything has its pros and cons, so we cannot criticize those who support centralized exchanges and ETFs. They also have their reasons when they support those things.

Wrong, do you think centralized exchanges and BlackRock don't have terms of service? every centralized entity always forbid some countries, they're not welcome for every people in this world.

The below Countries, and such other locations as designated by Binance from time to time, form the List of Prohibited Countries as described in Binance’s Terms of Use

Canada

Malaysia

Netherlands

United States

I'm aware there's Binance.us, so people who live on there can use this site. But, what about the people who live on those three countries? they need to use other sites. Instead of making it complicated, we have decentralized exchange or No KYC P2P which people can freely trade without need to worry about where they come from and their KYC.

[SamReomo]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

I'm also a firm supporter of the idea of decentralization and it's true that if you don't own the keys then the coins you have on exchanges aren't yours. Those coins actually belong to exchanges and they can do anything with those coins without your consent. Things have been changed a lot in crypto market from the time of Satoshi, and that's why we should understand that such changes are helping Bitcoin to grow. I also feel that Bitcoin isn't as decentralized as it used to be and who knows in future we may have more centralized power on Bitcoin.

I know that ETF's aren't actual Bitcoin by any means but they are somehow helping Bitcoin to grow. You don't own a Bitcoin when you own an ETF but it's value will always be close to the value of Bitcoin. If Bitcoin goes up then the ETF holder will also make profits from that upward movement and if it goes down then ETF holder will also face losses. I think those ETF's are somehow win-win situation for every holder of Bitcoin. The investment companies behind those ETFs will spend a lot of money to advertise their ETFs and such advertisement will also indirectly promote Bitcoin to wide audience.

[moneystery]

....
Recently SEC chairman Gary Gensler took a swipe at some people calling the ETF historic. He reminded them that the approval of these eleven spot ETFs is a win for centralisation which is a clear deviation from how Bitcoin was designed to function. This is an indication that they might have some hidden agenda behind this approval. After the fall of FTX, many people understood the importance of keeping your keys which led to massive transfer of funds to to non-custodial wallets. Nobody can stop these centralized investors from putting money into the Bitcoin space, so we just have to wait to see the long-run outcome of all the hype surrounding the ETF. But we will not stop announcing that not your keys, not your coins, however, people are free to choose between freedom and bondage.

i agree with what you say that there is a hidden agenda surrounding the approval of this bitcoin etf. the sec and these securities certainly only want to make a profit from the bitcoin market without getting too involved in it.

in fact, from some of the information i read, they issued this bitcoin etf only based on approval from the sec without the need to directly invest in bitcoin, which is quite surprising. this means that their contribution to the bitcoin market is non-existent, that all they do is add speculation to the bitcoin market to make its price unstable and make it function as an investment asset only for many people.

[legiteum]

My initial take on blockchain, as a technology, is that it could never scale even remotely close to what would be necessary to provide a mainstream payment system. As in, it could never get to even one thousandth of the scale and efficiency necessary to handle even world-wide credit card payments, let alone usurp other forms of payment like cash.

On-chain solutions can't, because storing a quarter trillion VISA payments per year in a decentralized way is simply not viable. That would require massive data centers. But off-chain solutions have the potential to do this: the Lightning Network for instance doesn't need to store all transactions, each node only has to store the current state of it's own channels. Except for the problem of on-chain channel creation, this has the potential to scale very well.

My own company is an "off chain solution" (I guess), but I never considered this to be what people consider "blockchain".

Indeed, the design process for Haypenny was, "let's make blockchain faster" and then that finally evolved into the entirely new exchange paradigm that is Haypenny's split/combine single-block approach without PKI and a fairly centralized infrastructure.

So sure, I guess blockchain will scale really well as long as you remove the blockchain part .

[NewRanger]

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

The reason it may sound classic is because Regulation will allow crypto to be accepted into the mainstream financial system of banks and indeed everything is volatile. And I think this approach should be done in the same way as we handle profits and losses on investments and if we want to profit from you have to stay at the forefront of trading where the reality is that ETF products are currently probably more preferred by novice investors even though at this time BTC price still hasn't risen significantly.
     

[Cryptomultiplier]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

I'm also a firm supporter of the idea of decentralization and it's true that if you don't own the keys then the coins you have on exchanges aren't yours. Those coins actually belong to exchanges and they can do anything with those coins without your consent. Things have been changed a lot in crypto market from the time of Satoshi, and that's why we should understand that such changes are helping Bitcoin to grow. I also feel that Bitcoin isn't as decentralized as it used to be and who knows in future we may have more centralized power on Bitcoin.

I know that ETF's aren't actual Bitcoin by any means but they are somehow helping Bitcoin to grow. You don't own a Bitcoin when you own an ETF but it's value will always be close to the value of Bitcoin. If Bitcoin goes up then the ETF holder will also make profits from that upward movement and if it goes down then ETF holder will also face losses. I think those ETF's are somehow win-win situation for every holder of Bitcoin. The investment companies behind those ETFs will spend a lot of money to advertise their ETFs and such advertisement will also indirectly promote Bitcoin to wide audience.

For me and from my understanding of what the ETF approval stands to represent, it is nothing more than the SEC giving a nod to the idea and existence of Bitcoin. It is a way the government and banks are biting hard on a large chunk of control of crypto currency mostly the Bitcoin market, incase it becomes of more value, where adoption rates and interest rates on investment suddenly makes it have more value than the dollar.

It is the interest of many to use BTC as more of an investment option, rather than as money to be spent for payments and transactions. Whatever be the case that has led to the approval of the ETF, it will at least place a target on money launderers and criminals who use BTC  for neferous activities. It would allow more countries make move to adopt and regulate crypto currency with more interest in future BTC implementations of investment benefits.

[m2017]

Remember "Not your keys, not your coins"?  Bitcoin was intended as a decentralized digital currency.

It’s true that bitcoin was intended to be just that, but the function of a decentralized digital currency has long been transformed into a speculative investment asset. This is quite easy to verify: the share of bitcoins holded and traded is higher than those used as money for the purchase of goods and services.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

"Futures ETFs and spot ETFs" was not created to fulfill the purposes of bitcoin. Bitcoin ETF's are bitcoin surrogates for speculation (the enrichment of those who sell it).

Does anyone else see what is happening here?  The silence is deafening!

Of course anyone see. And what do you suggest? Go out onto the streets with posters saying “don't buy Bitcoin ETF”? and "buy Futures ETFs and spot ETFs true bitcoin"?

Those who understand what's what buy bitcoin and keep quiet.

[we-btc]

Those who understand what's what buy bitcoin and keep quiet.

Great point!!  Buy bitcoin and keep quiet.

You could argue that when people feel a need for financial freedom outside the current paradigm of centralized banking they will adopt Bitcoin.  People are free to choose and currently they choose convenience over financial freedom.

Think about the concerted effort to paint bitcoin as a tool for criminals.  The media has the power to control the narrative and move public perception.

The Banks have the money to buy whatever media they need to change the way that people perceive things.

Maybe we just have to accept this is the world we live in?

This group should stand for Bitcoin's intended purpose. If we don't', who will?



  

[coolcoinz]

which means supply squeeze- I'd say that's good for bitcoin holders.

If you want a decentralized currency that is peer-to-peer then how is that good for Bitcoin. It only servers to give banks more control of peoples money.

How is ETF making bitcoin centralized? How much are they going to own? Microstrategy owns 200k bitcoin and that's still more than BlackRock. Is bitcoin centralized because of it? I don't think so.
Even if All ETFs together end up owning 500k, that's 2.5% of the supply. It's not going to change anything.

If you look at Bitcoin as an investment, which is what the banks want, then an increase in price will benefit Bitcoin holders.  Who holds the largest percentage of Bitcoin? Large institutions and wealthy individuals? A run up in price will make the rich richer and our greed will give them complete control of the one thing that could have transferred the wealth back to the people who create it.

I'm not a socialist and I don't care if they get rich from it. That's how the world is, the rich get richer. The rich can put some money in the bank and earn more than you in your full time job. Is it fair? Probably not, but life isn't fair.

The issue here is that individuals work and large institutions(banks) control the representation of that work(money).  The people who work should be paid with a currency that is controlled by them and can not be inflated(stolen/taxed) without their permission.

It's your choice if you want to hold  your money or give it to BlackRock. I prefer to hold, but I don't have anything against some rich people and companies holding it.
There's a simple solution if you don't want ETFs to hold your bitcoin. Don't give it to them!

[AmoreJaz]

Those who understand what's what buy bitcoin and keep quiet.

Great point!!  Buy bitcoin and keep quiet.

You could argue that when people feel a need for financial freedom outside the current paradigm of centralized banking they will adopt Bitcoin.  People are free to choose and currently they choose convenience over financial freedom.

Think about the concerted effort to paint bitcoin as a tool for criminals.  The media has the power to control the narrative and move public perception.

The Banks have the money to buy whatever media they need to change the way that people perceive things.

Maybe we just have to accept this is the world we live in?

This group should stand for Bitcoin's intended purpose. If we don't', who will?

this is the advantage in this market. you don't need to tell everyone that you are in this market. actually, it is better to be discreet with your crypto transactions rather than disclose what you are doing via your social media channels. you can't please everyone nor convince them about what you are doing, so better take this opportunity to enrich your assets. you are not obligated to teach or educate anyone.

Futures ETFs and spot ETFs are as far from Bitcoin's intended purpose as you can get and they serve to make banks more money while giving them more control.

The reason it may sound classic is because Regulation will allow crypto to be accepted into the mainstream financial system of banks and indeed everything is volatile. And I think this approach should be done in the same way as we handle profits and losses on investments and if we want to profit from you have to stay at the forefront of trading where the reality is that ETF products are currently probably more preferred by novice investors even though at this time BTC price still hasn't risen significantly.     

the BTC ETF, surely gives a positive notion that crypto in general is a legit financial aspect. hence, this is still good for this market, particularly in attracting new investors in this market. and once they got acquianted, they will surely explore how to invest directly in these various cryptocurrencies. so the regulation actually may boost crypto adoption. do remember way back before that crypto was considered illegal and used only by fraudulent actors in the market.

[kro55]

But without centralized exchanges and ETFs, would bitcoin be as popular and successful as it is today? It is true that centralized exchanges, ETFs will gradually make bitcoin more centralized, but on the other hand, it will make bitcoin more popular and accessible to everyone. I believe that any of us who are new to the market need the support of centralized exchanges. So it can be said that everything has its pros and cons, so we cannot criticize those who support centralized exchanges and ETFs. They also have their reasons when they support those things.

Wrong, do you think centralized exchanges and BlackRock don't have terms of service? every centralized entity always forbid some countries, they're not welcome for every people in this world.

The below Countries, and such other locations as designated by Binance from time to time, form the List of Prohibited Countries as described in Binance’s Terms of Use

Canada

Malaysia

Netherlands

United States

I'm aware there's Binance.us, so people who live on there can use this site. But, what about the people who live on those three countries? they need to use other sites. Instead of making it complicated, we have decentralized exchange or No KYC P2P which people can freely trade without need to worry about where they come from and their KYC.

We have a lot of exchanges, not just Binance, and not all centralized exchanges ban the 3 countries you mentioned. Even China or Bangladesh are countries that completely ban bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, but there are still many investors who can use CEX to participate in the market.

I know the benefits of decentralized exchanges because we don't need KYC and there are no country restrictions like centralized exchanges. But besides those two advantages, does it have any other advantages? I even tried the P2P feature on Bisq and had to wait a long time to contact the buyer whereas you will be extremely comfortable with CEX when trading P2P. And there are many features that DEX has not provided to us yet. Furthermore, if DEX is as good as you say, why has it not been able to surpass CEX in terms of transaction volume and influence on the market until now?

You and some people here really hate CEX because it goes against the decentralized nature of bitcoin, but we cannot deny their role and influence on the market.

[spectre71]

Bitcoin ETF is already a PART of my overall bitcoin portfolio. I keep some in hot wallet, cold wallet and some on my exchange. To have all your bitcoin eggs in one place / technology is just plane stupid.

Anywho, Bitcoin ETF is an EXCELLENT add to my Roth IRA! Why? Because what I put in there I won't pay taxes on when I withdraw for retirement in 13 ish years or so!

My 401k choices are very limited unfortunately, wish I could take advantage of that generous matching.

Just think of all the sovereign funds, pensions and corporations that can add BTC to their portfolio that keeps the boards happy. Think MicroStrategy.

Everyone talks about BTC is for everyone, okay, it's for everyone. stop whining.   

[vitya1982]

I get what are you talking about, and I kinda agree. This is why I'm not buying it and will keep holding and accumulating BTC in my wallet.

[nelson4lov]

We are basically in uncharted waters for the first time.

When I first got to the forum, the overall sentiment was that we needed to get institutional investors to join the bandwagon and make move for massive adoption to take place.  But mow we got it, I'm increasingly seen more negative remarks about while ETF is bad for Bitcoin.

So far, it is my opinion that we are still on track. It's not all changes that are inherently bad. ETF is a necessary evil that has put us on the map to get massive adoption.

[Richbased]

Well, I just see it that if ETFs are not approved, then a lot of investors may not really be comfortable with their investments because they may feel that the future of their assests are not guaranteed and secured and may not be too forward in their investments but now that ETFs are starting to get approval from SEC it will boast investors confidence to be more optimistic that their assets are secured since it has gained recognition by world standard authorities regardless of the fact that it may seem that the motive of creating Bitcoin which is to stand as decentralized medium of exchange may be countered.