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Author Topic: The Anon Paradox: Big Anonymity vs. Small Anonymity  (Read 112 times)
legiteum (OP)
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February 03, 2024, 07:30:06 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2024, 09:03:10 PM by legiteum
 #1

There are, roughly speaking, two distinct reasons one might want to keep their transactions and holdings anonymous, and because of this, most people's feelings on anonymity changes significantly when the amount of money in question goes from a "small" amount to a "large" amount.

By "small" amounts, we mean some amount of money that one would be able to lose without significantly impacting their long-term well-being. When talking about traditional money, this would be the amount one would carry in their physical wallet on their own person. This money would be reserved for convenient anonymous purchases, such as buying one's dinner from a restaurant.

By "large" amounts, we mean one's "life savings": the wealth they store for long-term safety and security. This amount would be reserved for major purchases such as a car or a house, or would be a money store to draw upon for a long period of time e.g. a retirement fund. This would be an amount of money that would be devastating to lose.

People value privacy to keep their information safe from three kinds of actors: legal, illegal, and state.

Legal actors include one's friends, family, associates, neighbors, marketers, and businesses. These are actors who seek your privacy out of curiosity or to profit from it e.g. to sell you things, or to gossip about your activities, or to make a judgement about your character. One typically keeps things private from legal actors because they don't want to give people a particular impression about themselves (which may be out of context and wrong for instance). This sentiment is captured when one says, "it's none of your business".

Illegal actors include criminals in every form who seek to steal your money. Here it's important to point out that protection from criminals is usually indirect: you don't want to divulge something to a vendor not because you think they are criminals, but rather you don't trust them to keep your information safe from criminals.

State actors are the police who work within the bounds of a political system in order to obtain your private data. Keeping your information private from these actors is done in order to escape the reach of the law within whatever dominion one finds oneself in. In mostly free western-style democracies, this typically means what we would call "criminals" e.g. those hiding proceeds from criminal activity, or those seeking to evade their taxes.

So in summary, when one asks, "do you want to keep your stuff private?", the answer must be prefaced with, "what kind of 'private' do you mean?". There is "private" from legal actors and criminals, and then there's "private" from your government. Those are two very different things.

Most people don't have any use for second kind of "privacy": most people are not criminals or tax evaders. (This is not making a moral judgement here by using the word, "criminal" because a "criminal" living under a corrupt government is not necessarily immoral). And morality aside, most people don't want to get on the wrong side of their government for practical reasons e.g. their own personal safety.

Now we can talk about people's desire for anonymity for "big" and "small" amounts of money.

For one's "life savings" (i.e. "big" amounts), most people desire this holding to be kept as safe as possible, and, most importantly, safer than they themselves could possibly keep it e.g. stored by an entity that specializes in storing wealth as a service, such as a bank or financial institution.

Further, when one purchases a "large" item like a house or a car, then people want that purchase to be non-anonymous because they wish for the ownership of that item to be based on their indelible identity and not simply their physical possession of the item, which can be easily lost or stolen. One buys such a major purchase, "in your name" so to speak. This is the very opposite of anonymity.

For "small" purchases, most people want the opposite: they would prefer to use an anonymous means of transacting to maintain the "privacy" from legal and illegal actors.

In both of the above cases, there is an exception for criminals who wish to keep their privacy for illegal reasons (again, the caveat above as to what constitutes "illegal" applies).

What This Means for Cryptocurrencies and Digital Currency

Within the context of a mostly-free, mostly-just government, anonymity is desirable for "small" purchases and holdings, and undesirable for "large" purchases and holdings.

Hence, what the world needs is an anonymous means of value exchange and holding for small amounts, whereas that need, paradoxically, reverses itself when the amount becomes larger.

In that context, today's cryptocurrencies, in terms of their fit for the marketplace, have it exactly backwards: the (decentralized) blockchain architecture necessarily incurs a high cost in terms of time and money, making it unsuitable for small transactions--which is why it is rarely used for such transactions. On the other hand, for "life savings" level holdings, cryptocurrency's anonymity is usually undesirable and this can be seen in the fact that most investors of cryptocurrencies do so with the use of a centralized institution e.g. a brokerage or app, and they keep their holdings "in their name" instead of by physically holding a private key.

What is needed, therefore, is a digital currency that is suitable for very small transactions and yet keeps these small transactions completely anonymous. This currency does not need to evade government actors and therefore can be centralized, but it does need to evade all other actors unlike a traditional credit card transaction.

This is what we sought to do with the Haypenny system, which is the simplest and most anonymous form of numerically-delineated value transfer every invented--as long as one defines "anonymous" as keeping one's privacy safe from legal and illegal actors and not government actors.



"If you don't want people to know you're a scumbag then don't be a scumbag." -- margaritahuyan
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odolvlobo
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February 24, 2024, 03:50:32 AM
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...
State actors are the police who work within the bounds of a political system in order to obtain your private data. Keeping your information private from these actors is done in order to escape the reach of the law within whatever dominion one finds oneself in. In mostly free western-style democracies, this typically means what we would call "criminals" e.g. those hiding proceeds from criminal activity, or those seeking to evade their taxes.

So in summary, when one asks, "do you want to keep your stuff private?", the answer must be prefaced with, "what kind of 'private' do you mean?". There is "private" from legal actors and criminals, and then there's "private" from your government. Those are two very different things.

Most people don't have any use for second kind of "privacy": most people are not criminals or tax evaders. (This is not making a moral judgement here by using the word, "criminal" because a "criminal" living under a corrupt government is not necessarily immoral). And morality aside, most people don't want to get on the wrong side of their government for practical reasons e.g. their own personal safety.

That is naive.

You assume an ideal government, which is an impossibility.

Consider that government actions are frequently based on policy and not legality.

You ignore the fact that a government is not an abstract entity. It is made up of people who belong to both "legal" and "illegal".

You easily dismiss the value of protecting privacy w.r.t. government for moral reasons.

Finally, you contradict yourself. People value privacy w.r.t. government specifically to "avoid getting the wrong side of their government for practical reasons e.g. their own personal safety."

In short, people who are not criminals or tax evaders certainly do have a use for privacy w.r.t. government. Democracy cannot exist without privacy.

"Arguing that you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden
legiteum (OP)
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February 24, 2024, 04:56:57 AM
 #3

...
State actors are the police who work within the bounds of a political system in order to obtain your private data. Keeping your information private from these actors is done in order to escape the reach of the law within whatever dominion one finds oneself in. In mostly free western-style democracies, this typically means what we would call "criminals" e.g. those hiding proceeds from criminal activity, or those seeking to evade their taxes.

So in summary, when one asks, "do you want to keep your stuff private?", the answer must be prefaced with, "what kind of 'private' do you mean?". There is "private" from legal actors and criminals, and then there's "private" from your government. Those are two very different things.

Most people don't have any use for second kind of "privacy": most people are not criminals or tax evaders. (This is not making a moral judgement here by using the word, "criminal" because a "criminal" living under a corrupt government is not necessarily immoral). And morality aside, most people don't want to get on the wrong side of their government for practical reasons e.g. their own personal safety.

That is naive.

You assume an ideal government, which is an impossibility.


I assume no such thing, and I made that very clear.

What I assumed, and I think correctly, is that most people don't want to go against their government, either because they are not criminals, or they fear being caught regardless of the technical safeguards (and trusting your life to Bitcoin privacy, for instance, would be, well, naive Smiley ).

The fact is that most people don't have the problem that decentralized architectures purport (often incorrectly) to solve.


Quote
Finally, you contradict yourself. People value privacy w.r.t. government specifically to "avoid getting the wrong side of their government for practical reasons e.g. their own personal safety."

In short, people who are not criminals or tax evaders certainly do have a use for privacy w.r.t. government. Democracy cannot exist without privacy.



I don't see how that contradicts anything. People usually don't like to go against their government, even if it's the proper and moral thing to do, because they fear they may be imprisoned or killed. I don't see how that statement is particularly controversial.

I have a Social Security number, I file taxes every year, my bank can be subpoenaed for my records, my house is in my name, as is my car, brokerage accounts, crypto accounts, and so on. In this regard I am exactly like almost all voting Americans. Democracy exists just fine here.


Quote
"Arguing that you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

That statement is nonsensical, but no matter: I care about privacy just like everybody else. I don't want my data shared with marketers, or companies I don't trust, or my neighbors, or even the government unless they have a valid subpoena. I simply don't have a need for a place to put my money where the government can never know about it even if they investigate me for a crime. And if I ever do have a need because the US government has collapsed to the point of lawlessness, Bitcoin isn't going to help me nor will anything else. Indeed, if you are fugitive, probably the last thing you want to do is leave a digital trail, however obscured you think it might be.



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February 24, 2024, 05:58:03 AM
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Finally, you contradict yourself. People value privacy w.r.t. government specifically to "avoid getting the wrong side of their government for practical reasons e.g. their own personal safety."
In short, people who are not criminals or tax evaders certainly do have a use for privacy w.r.t. government. Democracy cannot exist without privacy.
I don't see how that contradicts anything. People usually don't like to go against their government, even if it's the proper and moral thing to do, because they fear they may be imprisoned or killed. I don't see how that statement is particularly controversial.

The contradiction is that you state that privacy w.r.t. government is unnecessary and then give an example of how it might be useful.

Quote
"Arguing that you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

That statement is nonsensical, but no matter: I care about privacy just like everybody else. I don't want my data shared with marketers, or companies I don't trust, or my neighbors, or even the government unless they have a valid subpoena. I simply don't have a need for a place...

Your statement demonstrates the point. Your lack of a need for privacy shouldn't invalidate another's need for privacy.

Anyway, I can give you a excellent reason for privacy from the government in three words: "civil asset forfeiture". Using civil asset forfeiture, the governments in the U.S. can confiscate your property, even if you have done nothing wrong. If you have money and they want it, they can confiscate it simply by claiming that they suspect it was being used in criminal activity, and they don't have to prove that there was any criminal activity. They only have to claim they suspect it. This process is routinely abused by law enforcement.

I have another three words for you: "home equity theft". In many states in the U.S., it is legal for governments to confiscate a property and sell it to pay a tax liability, but keep all of the proceeds. For example, a Minnesota county seized and sold a woman's $40,000 house to pay a $15,000 tax and kept the remaining $25,000.
legiteum (OP)
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February 24, 2024, 06:29:52 AM
Last edit: February 25, 2024, 07:14:15 AM by legiteum
 #5

The contradiction is that you state that privacy w.r.t. government is unnecessary and then give an example of how it might be useful.

No, I said it was unnecessary for most people. I said that in my original paper as well. Most average consumers simply don't need a way to evade the government.


Quote
Your statement demonstrates the point. Your lack of a need for privacy shouldn't invalidate another's need for privacy.

I never said it did. If you are living in a oppressive regime, then it's proper and moral to try to evade the reach of your government (if it's safe to do so).

Quote
Anyway, I can give you a excellent reason for privacy from the government in three words: "civil asset forfeiture". Using civil asset forfeiture, the governments in the U.S. can confiscate your property, even if you have done nothing wrong. If you have money and they want it, they can confiscate it simply by claiming that they suspect it was being used in criminal activity, and they don't have to prove that there was any criminal activity. They only have to claim they suspect it. This process is routinely abused by law enforcement.

I have another three words for you: "home equity theft". In many states in the U.S., it is legal for governments to confiscate a property and sell it to pay a tax liability, but keep all of the proceeds. For example, a Minnesota county seized and sold a woman's $40,000 house to pay a $15,000 tax and kept the remaining $25,000.


I'm quite aware of these injustices, and they are terrible.

But in the USA its virtually impossible to own a home without using your real name, so how is some technical means of anonymity (e.g. crypto) going to help you with this problem?

The thesis of my article here was that most people would never want to own their home based on a private key (for instance) that they could physically lose or could be physically stolen. People buy their home in their own name, as they do with their car, their savings, and their crypto accounts.

Living in a country where your home could be physically stolen from you by any sort of criminal would be a nightmare. Our system isn't perfect and has lots of problems like the one you are talking about here, but most people don't have the problem with this even though there are a few very unfortunate exceptions.

But the solution is not to wage war against your own government--that's a losing battle in the long run no matter what. The solution is to vote and to change your government. That's not a very good-sounding solution because it might not work and it's often very slow, but it's the only one that has a chance of working in the real world. Everything else is just a fantasy.

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