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Author Topic: Bitcoin Privacy Protocols  (Read 539 times)
JiiBs
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February 20, 2024, 06:27:54 PM
 #21

It’s just that, the persona have been on top of his/her/their game and had a deep understanding of what they did intend to archive. That’s how I would like to imagine it.

Satoshi Nakamoto, as a cypherpunk, knew how important privacy is. I am not saying that Satoshi Nakamoto implemented Bitcoin alone, nor that he never interacted with other people. In fact, there are multiple emails where Satoshi Nakamoto exchanged ideas and thoughts with a lot of people. They also had an account in this forum, where he interacted with a lot of users. But, what I am saying is, nobody knew who they were in real life.
Oh yeah, we are very much on the same page on this now.

It’s some unique quality but in one instance, you serve as mixers and coin offerers all in one.
Cash has existed for centuries, in much larger scale, and is equally or even less traceable than Monero. Yet, no user was subjected to using its banknotes for "mixing". Everyone accepted it.
I don’t fully understand what is been said here but, my closest deduction is that, models to traceability happens to have changed over the years and one hardly finds a need to wish eliminate traces in fiat or banknotes except when it’s sure to be subject to questioning, laundered money and it’s related means to handling money that raises an eyelid.

Fiat uses protocols that uses less publicity to ensure privacy although, the transaction is widely open between parties (senders, third party processing the transaction and receivers).
Modern day Bitcoin adopt a model that dissociates the person from the address but publicizes the transaction for verification and adoption into nodes to ensure privacy.
Now, the trick here is that, your privacy depends on how you use an address as it could be linked to you if you frequently use the address or have by some means linked it to a persona on some platform that seeks KYC. Know that this might be exploited.
This method ensures that elicit usage of the system could have some traces should there have been any loophole in the way you managed your privacy or associate address.

This is where mixers came into play and with the talked about XMR trying to adopt models that resembles that of mixers to ensure privacy, it’s sure to be attacked and having any center clearing makes it vulnerable unlike Bitcoin.

What I also wonder is whether a backdoor could in any case be detected as having been introduced deliberately by someone? I am sure there are cases where it could be, but there are probably cases where someone could say it was just a mistake in the code.
AI continues to be the order of the day and the sophistication of technology in our time brings to question if this or that could stand in the Bitcoin models but my studies so far gives me no reason to doubt Bitcoins continued existence and growth with regards to sophistication. Given that by the absence of no coin issuers, it’s adopted system to persist by popular votes where each IP stands for a single vote and works in a chain, having nodes for verification and storage of data.
This remains a free to join and should you leave at some point, your always welcomed to rejoin and accept all valid transaction while you were absent to continue the chain and maintain integrity of the system.
This doesn’t give much time for any exploitation as, any delayed step increases the gaps between a node for which an attacker could hope to exploit and the exponential difference decreases the level of success of an attacker.

Is there any evidence that Satoshi Nakamoto deliberately avoided adding privacy-related protocols and functionality into Bitcoin in order to avoid the ban-hammer?
In terms of privacy, maybe Satoshi Nakamoto did.
Been a privacy specialist, the pioneer had to study other coins that exited before that time, the issues they had and how they were vulnerable to the government, dissociated from the invention from been a hotspot to the invention, adopted models that works and bringing in a model that would ensure the sustainability of this new invention. Some of those is by not making privacy absolute.

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February 20, 2024, 07:22:10 PM
Last edit: February 20, 2024, 07:32:54 PM by BlackHatCoiner
Merited by tiCeR (1)
 #22

But I find one idea quite compelling to think about, do you think that publicly available artificial intelligence will come to a point where it can be asked for vulnerabilities in the most secure (or rather most pervasively used) algorithms or could it intentionally be fed an information a la garbage-in-garbage-out such that it always provides an answer pleasing the public?
This opens up entire conversations that can't be compressed in just a post, but I'd say that as AI models become more sophisticated, they can be utilized for identifying vulnerabilities in cryptographic domains. I'm not entirely sure about the considerations that need to be taken, but I know that we can't rely exclusively on a creation that holds no responsibility for what it produces. (That under the hypothesis that we can't blame the AI developers for an AI false output)

I don’t fully understand what is been said here but, my closest deduction is that, models to traceability happens to have changed over the years and one hardly finds a need to wish eliminate traces in fiat or banknotes except when it’s sure to be subject to questioning, laundered money and it’s related means to handling money that raises an eyelid.
Even if true, you can't forbid it by invading their privacy preemptively. Everyone is not guilty until proven innocent.

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foggyb (OP)
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February 21, 2024, 10:29:31 PM
 #23

My take on it is that he understood that absolute privacy of transactions - be it BTC, fiat, or whatever - naturally opens the doors to a myriad of illicit uses. Only an immutable and public ledger gives a way to track those uses and yes, if need be, prosecute the folks involved. By being a public ledger he (thought he) removed the ability to use BTC for things that are against 'The Public Good'.

Now, the sticking point is that yes, transactions can be followed through the blockchain BUT who/what has ownership of coins cannot be discovered until they are exchanged into fiat or some type of physical goods which can be linked to people & organizations. He wanted to make sure that BTC had that discovery mechanism.

Of course ones definition of 'illicit activities' and  'The Public Good' largely depends on the individual and their governments...

A public ledger can also cause public harm. Consider when governments go rogue--they will use public ledgers to track and punish enemies and dissidents.

Another scenario is medical and financial information that is required by law to have protection from public view.

There are many legitimate reasons to have transaction privacy.

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February 23, 2024, 01:47:18 AM
 #24

This opens up entire conversations that can't be compressed in just a post, but I'd say that as AI models become more sophisticated, they can be utilized for identifying vulnerabilities in cryptographic domains. I'm not entirely sure about the considerations that need to be taken, but I know that we can't rely exclusively on a creation that holds no responsibility for what it produces. (That under the hypothesis that we can't blame the AI developers for an AI false output)
Likely not, and not for anywhere in the foreseeable future. GPTs are good at making up stuff with prompts but they aren't good at math. If they were to come up with mathematical theory and proofs, then I would be convinced but I don't think we are anywhere near that yet.
A public ledger can also cause public harm. Consider when governments go rogue--they will use public ledgers to track and punish enemies and dissidents.

Another scenario is medical and financial information that is required by law to have protection from public view.

There are many legitimate reasons to have transaction privacy.
Bitcoin provided sufficient privacy while keeping it simple and easy to understand. If used correctly with the appropriate tools (mixers, coinjoins, etc), then it would provide very good privacy where adversary would have a hard time trying to prove any plausible link.

The issue with privacy doesn't actually lie within Bitcoin, but it is mainly about the user's behaviors. Most privacy leakage are caused by the user's privacy habits that doesn't lie with Bitcoin.

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apogio
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February 23, 2024, 09:20:53 AM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #25

Bitcoin provided sufficient privacy while keeping it simple and easy to understand. If used correctly with the appropriate tools (mixers, coinjoins, etc), then it would provide very good privacy where adversary would have a hard time trying to prove any plausible link.

The issue with privacy doesn't actually lie within Bitcoin, but it is mainly about the user's behaviors. Most privacy leakage are caused by the user's privacy habits that doesn't lie with Bitcoin.

Well obviously privacy leakage mostly happens due to human error. The tools you have mentioned are great, but they aren't built-in in Bitcoin. They were developed to provide higher privacy and of course, they are welcome. But my point is, Satoshi himself mentioned that "bitcoin should be used using Tor". So, doesn't Bitcoin "kind of" need these tools (add-ons) to help people with their privacy?

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February 23, 2024, 09:37:59 AM
 #26

Well obviously privacy leakage mostly happens due to human error. The tools you have mentioned are great, but they aren't built-in in Bitcoin. They were developed to provide higher privacy and of course, they are welcome. But my point is, Satoshi himself mentioned that "bitcoin should be used using Tor". So, doesn't Bitcoin "kind of" need these tools (add-ons) to help people with their privacy?
Bitcoin's primary principle is to facilitate peer to peer transaction, and the priority is not privacy. This can be seen in the whitepaper where the mention of privacy is a small section without going through it in depth. That aside, I don't believe Satoshi should have attempted to improve the privacy of Bitcoin, like Monero or other similar cryptos. Reason being, I don't think he could've done it efficiently and implementing it in the protocol as a feature would have tons of repercussion should the features not work as expected.

Bitcoin has a convenient feature of being pseudonymous, and that is how privacy is enhanced from the on-start. I don't think Bitcoin requires privacy enhancing tool, unless we are absolutely sure that it is infallible and bulletproof. The side effect of features like these would be having complacent users which over-relies on whatever Bitcoin can provide. I don't see a problem having it out of the protocol, having it included with the protocol could potentially introduce problems down the road.

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BlackHatCoiner
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February 23, 2024, 01:40:06 PM
 #27

If they were to come up with mathematical theory and proofs, then I would be convinced but I don't think we are anywhere near that yet.
At the moment, no, they can't come up with new theories and proofs. But, they're quite good at analyzing and producing conclusions based on current knowledge (at least the good ones). They're already capable of solving math tests with ten out of ten, and we reached that point in quite small time span. It wouldn't surprise me if they were capable of the former as well within this or the next decade.

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February 24, 2024, 04:40:27 AM
 #28

But my point is, Satoshi himself mentioned that "bitcoin should be used using Tor".

I'm not familiar with that quote, do you know where I can find it?

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February 24, 2024, 05:22:37 AM
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 #29

But my point is, Satoshi himself mentioned that "bitcoin should be used using Tor".

I'm not familiar with that quote, do you know where I can find it?

He made statements that were basically centered around that idea:

Bitcoin is still very new and has not been independently analysed.  If you're serious about privacy, TOR is an advisable precaution.

I have thought about eventually SSLing all the connections.  I assume anything short of SSL would be pointless against DPI.  Maybe a better more immediate solution is to connect through TOR, which will be possible with 0.2.  

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March 05, 2024, 10:32:46 AM
 #30

With Binance delisting of XMR, there seems to be a growing trend that coins with privacy protocols are increasingly becoming a target of governments.

Is there any evidence that Satoshi Nakamoto deliberately avoided adding privacy-related protocols and functionality into Bitcoin in order to avoid the ban-hammer?

If so, how did he justify this decision when the very concept of sound money cannot be implemented in an environment where there is no guarantee of absolute transaction privacy?
I think that Satoshi's intention wasn't to create an electronic payment method that would offer you superb privacy, as I understand from his posts, he didn't have enough knowledge to create a coin similar to Monero. Satoshi's priority was to create a purely P2P version of electronic cash. He wanted to accomplish things without a trusted party. In order to achieve that, transactions must be publicly announced, that's why the bitcoin blockchain, a public book of transactions exist. There is a detailed talk about this on the second page of Bitcoin Whitepaper.
I think, the first and 2nd page of Bitcoin Whitepaper answers your questions but I still suggest you to have a look at this thread and all the posts that are written here: Not a suggestion.

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