El Salvador's success?

[Ultegra134]

Nope, this won't be one more thread about El Salvador's Bitcoin adoption. With that being said, let's dive into the subject of this topic.

El Salvador is a small country in Central America that has become extremely popular in the forum in the last few years due to it recognizing Bitcoin as legal tender and attempting to adopt it in its economy on a daily basis. Whether or not this adoption was successful remains unknown. From what I've read, a large number of citizens claimed the early bonuses and never bothered again, so it's hard to say that Bitcoin adoption has been a success, although it's best not to jump to conclusions again.

Now let's jump into the actual subject of this topic. Recently, it has come to the attention of the media that El Salvador, a country that was considered one of the most dangerous in the world, has turned upside down and is ranking as one of the safest countries and the safest in Latin America, lowering the homicide rates by 70%. 154 homicides were recorded in 2023, the lowest in decades.

El Salvador has been struggling with notorious gangs for years, while according to government data, over 120.000 civilian lives have been lost due to gang rivalries, while it was claimed that over 80% of the country's territory was controlled by gangs. The country was declared in a state of emergency in early 2022, which allowed the police to arrest and jail suspected gang members while at the same time suspending their right to an attorney and court approval of preliminary detention. Although this crackdown has severely decreased crime rates in the country, human rights organizations are claiming that the crackdown included abuses, torture, and even deaths in custody. The police have arrested over 75.000 suspected gang members and released 7.000, while human rights groups have reported 190 deaths and over 5.000 cases of abuse.

Although President Nayib Bukele was recently re-elected with over 85% of the votes cast, human rights organizations are calling him a dictator; however, the citizens have ruled that they prefer safer streets rather than supporting human rights.

What's your opinion? Do you support the way president Bukele tackled corruption and crime, or is he rightfully being called a dictator?

Sources:
1. https://www.france24.com/en/americas/20240205-el-salvador-s-president-bukele-claims-record-reelection-victory
2. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/25/el-salvador-crime-human-rights-prisons/
3. https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/el-salvador-says-murders-fell-70-2023-it-cracked-down-gangs-2024-01-03/

[avikz]

When a government doesn't do their job of keeping the streets crime free, you call them failed government. But when they actually do what they are supposed to do, you are calling them dictator!

The people of El-Salvador knows it better and that's why they have re-elected Nayib Bukele for another term with over 85% of votes. let's respect their choice of life. El-Salvador is a democracy and not anywhere similar to North Korea where there's no opposition party. I have got the news of this re-election just a week back, and it seems, everyone is praising Nayib Bukele for his strong stance against the criminals in the country.

I would definitely not call him a dictator, rather I will call him a leader of the people. I sometimes don't understand the role of these human rights organizations. Where were they when peoples' live were lost due to gang wars? Now someone is cleaning the mess and these organizations are coming around crying for human lives! What an irony!

[franky1]

a dictator, much like dictation is someone that writes.. in political terms its the top guy that has powers to write executive orders
which is different than committees, parliaments, senates and congressing where laws only come into effect by mass agreement of the assembly

when a dictator abuses the power they become tyrannical dictators

if a country fairly voted him in without mass corruption, and he uses the power to make the country better its not tyrany

..
ever since the roman times governments have had policies that in times of emergency the leaders can dictate law fast and swiftly in response to emerging problems that need fast results to overt damage, harm, distress of a nation.

in times of war or civil unrest you usually see these cases of where the Chief executive of the federal government. Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces use the emergency powers to dictate, but in some countries they call these dictations by other names like "executive orders"

el salvador also does have a legislative assembly of 84 members..

so just like in america.. both have presidents. who have executive power.. and then a legislative level of elected people that set policy, laws, regulations and such aswell

but it is funny to see how western media like to tweak the buzzwords

[crwth]

I have read information about this and watched a short video on how they managed to turn around that country. There would always be people who would criticize the government's actions like calling them a dictator but maybe that's the only way and it has become effective. But the people who have a say on this are the people of El Salvador.

We have an outsider's perspective but we can see results and I think it's a success if the goal is to lessen the crimes and it did. The other issues are a different discussion. It all boils down to the goal you are about.

[Despairo]

El Salvador is success, there's a high chance they catch a wrong person because they arrested a lot suspected gang members, but at least this will make El Salvadorian feel safe and they won't try to doing a bad thing due to punishment.

I didn't hear if someone talks bad or not voted Nayib Bukele, he will going to jail, so he's not yet a dictator which like in North Korea.

When a government doesn't do their job of keeping the streets crime free, you call them failed government. But when they actually do what they are supposed to do, you are calling them dictator!

LMAO except US, US has a privilege, even though there are a lot homicide and they learn LGBTQ+ since kindergarten, a lot people are saying US is the best country.

[franky1]

one countries dictator is another countries executive leader.. both the same legally. but different synonyms to change the mood/mindset of media story readers

[avikz]

When a government doesn't do their job of keeping the streets crime free, you call them failed government. But when they actually do what they are supposed to do, you are calling them dictator!

LMAO except US, US has a privilege, even though there are a lot homicide and they learn LGBTQ+ since kindergarten, a lot people are saying US is the best country.

I don't consider US as the best country. Every country has their fair share of issues and US is not an exception. US is really a land of opportunity with a high per capita income. That's why immigrants try to move in there and make money so that they can live a comfortable life back home. But the subject matter here is El-Salvador.

This is a country where the crime rate has dropped down to an optimum low level after the current president started cleaning up the mess. That's commendable and this effort should be applauded! 

Nayib Bukele is giving another opportunity to his people towards a better life. Not sure why the Human rights organizations are crying foul around it! Not to mention that most of these Human Rights organizations are funded by the Western people. 

[franky1]

US is really a land of opportunity

one persons opportunity is another persons expectation not yet filled
the pursuit of happiness is different to achieving happiness
the land of dreams is different to reality
liberty vs border policy
job opportunities = positions not filled

same things mean different thoughts about said things depend on who says it and how its said

[Ultegra134]

I have read information about this and watched a short video on how they managed to turn around that country. There would always be people who would criticize the government's actions like calling them a dictator but maybe that's the only way and it has become effective. But the people who have a say on this are the people of El Salvador.

We have an outsider's perspective but we can see results and I think it's a success if the goal is to lessen the crimes and it did. The other issues are a different discussion. It all boils down to the goal you are about.

We're not in the best position to judge, but since the people of El Salvador voted for him, it means that he has done a good job and people support him. Although his actions may look harsh to some, I personally don't see how else someone could tackle such a delicate issue when gangs were controlling over 80% of your country's land.

El Salvador is success, there's a high chance they catch a wrong person because they arrested a lot suspected gang members, but at least this will make El Salvadorian feel safe and they won't try to doing a bad thing due to punishment.

I didn't hear if someone talks bad or not voted Nayib Bukele, he will going to jail, so he's not yet a dictator which like in North Korea.

Indeed, there's a chance someone is wrongfully convicted, but that's not something that isn't happening in the rest of the world either. Over 7,000 people were released after initially being arrested. At least the country is finally safe.

When a government doesn't do their job of keeping the streets crime free, you call them failed government. But when they actually do what they are supposed to do, you are calling them dictator!

The people of El-Salvador knows it better and that's why they have re-elected Nayib Bukele for another term with over 85% of votes. let's respect their choice of life. El-Salvador is a democracy and not anywhere similar to North Korea where there's no opposition party. I have got the news of this re-election just a week back, and it seems, everyone is praising Nayib Bukele for his strong stance against the criminals in the country.

I would definitely not call him a dictator, rather I will call him a leader of the people. I sometimes don't understand the role of these human rights organizations. Where were they when peoples' live were lost due to gang wars? Now someone is cleaning the mess and these organizations are coming around crying for human lives! What an irony!

That's true; most non-profit and human rights organizations are a plague. They're calling out for the rights of these gang members, who were the root of El Salvador's corruption and increased homicide rates that led to thousands of deaths. Yet, these organizations were absent when this was happening and the country was suffering, where were they to support the rights of those who got murdered by them?

[Zlantann]

We're not in the best position to judge, but since the people of El Salvador voted for him, it means that he has done a good job and people support him. Although his actions may look harsh to some, I personally don't see how else someone could tackle such a delicate issue when gangs were controlling over 80% of your country's land.

For some time now we have been trying to get firsthand reports from members who reside in El Salvador but it seems there is none. It is very difficult to get information from the country because international news agencies are not given the freedom to carry out investigations. The BBC was given permission this year to visit the Center for the Confinement of Terrorism (CECOT) after many years of application. In tackling this kind of brutal gangsterism that has led to so many deaths, mistakes will be made that might lead to the incarceration and even death of innocent citizens. 

That's true; most non-profit and human rights organizations are a plague. They're calling out for the rights of these gang members, who were the root of El Salvador's corruption and increased homicide rates that led to thousands of deaths. Yet, these organizations were absent when this was happening and the country was suffering, where were they to support the rights of those who got murdered by them?

Some of these international organisations are stooges of some multinational corporations that benefit from criminal activities. Some of them make more profit when a nation is going through instability. I read the BBC report and the majority of the people interviewed agreed that some persons were wrongfully detained but all of them affirmed that living conditions in terms of security have greatly improved. Many business owners had to pay heavy taxes to these gangs and failure to do that attracted severe punishment. All I desire for the country is to do periodic reviews of these arrests so that people who were wrongfully arrested can be released.       

[Yamane_Keto]

The topic has turned to be more political than economics, but by looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you will find that the human need for safety, food and drink takes precedence over human rights and even the individual's right to life. Therefore, you cannot tell citizens who are suffering from gangs stealing and seizing their money that they must adhere to human rights. And not demanding that the government do everything necessary to provide basic needs.

I do not know what is happening in El Salvador, but if that is what happened, it is natural to understand why Nayib Bukele was re-elected.

[Zlantann]

The topic has turned to be more political than economics, but by looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you will find that the human need for safety, food and drink takes precedence over human rights and even the individual's right to life. Therefore, you cannot tell citizens who are suffering from gangs stealing and seizing their money that they must adhere to human rights. And not demanding that the government do everything necessary to provide basic needs.

Every political action will always have an economic reaction or impact. Bukele's reelection is a landmark event that guarantees that El Salvador will be a Bitcoin nation for another five years. Just as I stated in my post above when BBC interviewed citizens of El Salvador many of them were happy with the government of Bukele because he was able it meet their basic needs. If you have ever lived in an area besieged by violent cult groups you will appreciate the beauty of security. In such an area ruled by gang lords no fundamental human rights exist because the area is governed by murderers and rapists. The government might be violating human rights in the bid to get rid of these criminals but the people prefer government crackdowns than to allow these criminals to take control.

However, we cannot support the violation of the fundamental human rights of citizens because we want to achieve an important task. No innocent person deserves to be in prison because the government wants to get rid of criminals. I will not be happy to be in prison for a crime I didn't commit. There should be a review these the sentence and incarceration. I read that some of them were sentenced to as high as 269 years in prison and maybe some innocent citizens might have received such a harsh sentence.

[franky1]

No innocent person deserves to be in prison because the government wants to get rid of criminals. I will not be happy to be in prison for a crime I didn't commit. There should be a review these the sentence and incarceration. I read that some of them were sentenced to as high as 269 years in prison and maybe some innocent citizens might have received such a harsh sentence.

US incarcerates many innocent people.
US even still does death penalty

there are people still n US prisons doing time for crimes that are now decriminalised where people can now do without being arrested but those in prison are still doing time for the exact same action

heck US lets citizens carry guns but as soon as a cop sees a gun the cop has "right to defend self" and instantly kill someone for having a gun.. heck US cops even kills kids for carrying a water pistol, a phone or any object a cop mistakes for a gun

intentional murder rate(2022 stats)

         per 100,000
rank   population        death count
48      7.8                  496               el salvador
55      6.4                  21,593          america

there are 43.5x more physical murders in the US

[Zlantann]

No innocent person deserves to be in prison because the government wants to get rid of criminals. I will not be happy to be in prison for a crime I didn't commit. There should be a review these the sentence and incarceration. I read that some of them were sentenced to as high as 269 years in prison and maybe some innocent citizens might have received such a harsh sentence.

US incarcerates many innocent people.
US even still does death penalty

there are people still n US prisons doing time for crimes that are now decriminalised where people can now do without being arrested but those in prison are still doing time for the exact same action

heck US lets citizens carry guns but as soon as a cop sees a gun the cop has "right to defend self" and instantly kill someone for having a gun.. heck US cops even kills kids for carrying a water pistol, a phone or any object a cop mistakes for a gun

intentional murder rate(2022 stats)

         per 100,000
rank   population        death count
48      7.8                  496               el salvador
55      6.4                  21,593          america

there are 43.5x more physical murders in the US

There are many lapses in the legal and prison system in the US, therefore I don't take the US as an ideal example. There is so much corruption and inequalities in the US and other country's legal systems. If Biden or Trump's son was in prison because of a crime that has been decriminalized the US would have reviewed such laws but because their relatives are not involved people are still allowed to suffer for nothing. The US police system is highly faulty and the several cases of extrajudicial killings are shocking the country has serious issues with arms control. There are other countries with better legal systems and less crime, I think those nations should be our example, we shouldn't always see the US as an ideal society for comparison.

[Dunamisx]

El-salvador has received a lot in terms of development as a result of it's bitcoin adoption, if you can locate the El-salvador bitcoin adoption thread there you will be able to see more about how the discussions on it has helped, and the people in the country has seen a tremendous mature around in every sector of their performances in the economy, this wasn't just a one time growth and development, but a continuous one.

[famososMuertos]

You don't want to talk about bitcoin adoption in El Salvador, ok. But let's use the adjective adoption, which is what has happened with the way Bukele approached his government policy on the issue of security, and he was not a genius as many people make him out to be, he was a manager who saw the main problem, and attacked it.

Bukele's genius lies in the fact that by attacking the problem of crime, his economy is looking for positive numbers,this is country that depends on tourism and commerce, which represent 70% (+/ -) It is not a country of mineral natural resources, in fact agriculture contributes only 10%. (1)

So, the security issue is or was something priority in his vision, and bitcoin, was his best marketing strategy to say; "hey, bitcoin as legal currency"...  consequently, the world responded, seriously!,Where is "the Savior," oh, sorry El Salvador,  country?

And it has managed to get investors, tourists, onlookers, and hence bitcoiners, consequently its GDP to improve. (These mentioned data above correspond to the year 2022)

On the economic level you cannot say "success" only with sensations, you have to put the numbers and El Salvador on the economic level in reference to previous years there is only the word growth, that is the adjective, if you want to add it as a synonym for success, then yes.

^{(1):https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economía_de_El_Salvador (2022)}

Source:

El Salvador:Se prevé que el PIB converja en un 2,1 % en el mediano plazo, por encima de los promedios históricos, como consecuencia del consumo privado, la inversión pública y el turismo.

GDP there is expected to position by 2.1% in the medium term, above historical averages, as a result of private consumption, public investment and tourism.

^{https://www.bancomundial.org/es/country/elsalvador/overview}

[Ultegra134]

~Snipped~

The reason I'm not going into much detail regarding Bitcoin's adoption as legal tender is because there are plenty of other threads analyzing it. I don't doubt that Bitcoin has provided some sort of assistance in the economy; it's very possible; however, I believe that it wasn't what Bukele was anticipating when he introduced Bitcoin to the economy.

Bukele's approach to tackling the crime rate was harsh but justified, and I personally don't think any other approach would have such a success rate. Not only were gangs responsible for thousands of deaths, but they were also ruining the economy in a variety of ways. With it now being a safe country, the tourism sector is far more likely to boom, leading to more work opportunities for locals and increased revenues.

[alastantiger]

What's your opinion? Do you support the way president Bukele tackled corruption and crime, or is he rightfully being called a dictator?

If President Bukele were a dictator, there wouldn't have been an election in that country. He would have just gone ahead to continue his tenure indefinitely. In every country, there will always be people who either love or hate you. And that is the case with Mr Bukele. He has those who support him and those who just don't like him. I am shifting towards him being more of an authoritarian than a Dictator. He is an authoritarian for the very strict measures he has taken. When El Salvador was Kidnapped by the Criminal Gangs, nobody was defending the poor and innocent Victims, but now that Presidente Bukele is getting the bad guys, now, the world pays attention to El Salvador and even publishes bad PR about him.

[muncuss]

Sheesh this become political thread but i want to add a bit lol. Not all dictator is bad. Singapore, they become successful nation because of their dictator. And i remember thomas sankara as well, former leader of burkina faso which improved many thing there. If the dictator is genuinely have good vision for their country, it just a logical choice to be what they are because it mean less obtacles in building the nation.

The topic has turned to be more political than economics, but by looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you will find that the human need for safety, food and drink takes precedence over human rights and even the individual's right to life. Therefore, you cannot tell citizens who are suffering from gangs stealing and seizing their money that they must adhere to human rights. And not demanding that the government do everything necessary to provide basic needs.

I do not know what is happening in El Salvador, but if that is what happened, it is natural to understand why Nayib Bukele was re-elected.

This pretty much true. As i am currently in third world nation, as poverty still prevalent, we care less about thing like human right as it cannot fulfill our hungry stomach

[JariKriting]

if it is about criminal drugs and the like, they prefer to use cash rather than bank transfers or use crypto because using cash can be used immediately and easily laundered. if it uses bitcoin, it will reduce crime. but if you fully use bitcoin, it will be troublesome for people if they shop in traditional markets and the fee for sending bitcoin is quite high so if every transaction is subject to a fee, it will be troublesome and inconvenient for the people in the country.