You should use a 12 or 24 words seed phrase ?

[riqo]

This is a very important topic that I want to comment on, since lately I see a lot of confusion on it on Twitter and in other platforms about “What’s the difference between a 12 word seed phrase and a 24 word seed phrase?” Many people simply have a basic preference or default wallet. For some, like me, the issue goes further, and is about security, i will try to summarise it as quite as posible. I will split this topic in three parts: 12 words seed phrase , 24 words seed phrase and finally the scrambled Seed Words.

Note: SP will stand to seed phrase.

12 Words SP

https://talkimg.com/images/2024/02/16/YwoJl.png

And if you are wondering wich words are in the BIP39 list here its is a llink to check it by yourself.
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/english.txt
The number of posible combinations exceeds 2.6 undecillion potential pairings. This implies that in order to calculate all of the potential 12-word SP that exist, someone would have to predict all 2.6 undecillion permutations, quite a heavy proces to be honest.

24 Words SP

https://talkimg.com/images/2024/02/16/YwoJl.png

As you see 14 quattuorvigintillion possible word combinations, its the first time you heard it, i know....
Astronimcal number, although guessing a 24-word seed phrase is not impossible in theory, we can described as "practically impossible." In other words, given the constraints of a human lifespan and the full extent of computer power now accessible to humanity, it is not conceivable to estimate a seed phrase (Who knows in the future...).

Scrambled SP
Two cases the 12 and the 24 SP case.
So here we will gonna talk about having the correct list of words but scrambled, in wich case we can restore our wallet its is posible? two cases the 12 and the 24 SP case.

Starting with the 12 scrambled words:

off energy lounge crisp library inmate accident occur boring aunt cherry gallery

The list above is a 12 word SP scrambled, that contained 100,000 sats in this adddres: bc1ql7ka7ut3vcveydx8sy9ylhurpnc6cpy02yjrge
A web page throw it as a challenge in November 13, 2022 and in December 8, 2022 the sats were gone.

So, in order to guess the order of 12 known seed words, you have to guess all 479,001,600 possible combinations. That’s less than half a billion different combinations. It probably wouldn’t take someone very long to guess with the right computer script and a decent amount of computing power.

The 24 scrambled words:

grab merit chuckle can island wash floor car exit mother box festival october odor camp country trial nephew coil fabric galaxy napkin appear apple

The list above is a 24 word SP scrambled, that contained 1,000,000 sats in this adddres:
bc1qxsd68d42agvykdueutm228uzn4s2g9qp2kk7t8
The bounty started  in November 13, 2022 till now nobody breaking in to it ! ( you can try

That’s more than 620 sextillion possible combinations, which is more than one quadrillion (1,295,295,050,649,600) times the number of possible combinations with just 12 words. That’s the power of “Vires in numeris”, or “strength in numbers”, which is one of the many mantras that bitcoiners put on t-shirts, artwork, and cliché engagement tweets. The raw level of security that you have with a 24 word seed phrase is essentially 1,295,295,050,649,600 times greater than with just 12 words.

Conclusion
Using this examples, i want to conclude this topic saying that both 12 and 24 SP words are secure, but 24 is way more, in one hand we have the dilema of scrambling the words and having the 24 SP its would be imposible to recover, although the 12 SP its definetly more ''easy'' or '' lot less difficult'' than the 24 one. My suggestion is to pick the 24 SP and not scrambling the words , i hope you learned something.

[Charles-Tim]

Using this examples, i want to conclude this topic saying that both 12 and 24 SP words are secure, but 24 is way more, in one hand we have the dilema of scrambling the words and having the 24 SP its would be imposible to recover, although the 12 SP its definetly more ''easy'' or '' lot less difficult'' than the 24 one. My suggestion is to pick the 24 SP and not scrambling the words , i hope you learned something.

24 woryd seed phrases are not more secure than 12 word seed phrases. 24 words seed phrases can be impossible to rearrange if the words are not in order while there is possibility that 12 word seed phrase can be rearranged. But that does not mean 24 words seed phrases are more secure. If an attacker sees your seed phrase, the chance that the seed phrase are in order is higher as usual and the coins can be stolen after the wallet has been compromised. Also not recommended to disarrange a 24 word seed phrase because it can not be rearranged. 12 words seed phrases have 128 bits of security just as bitcoin private key which makes 24 word seed phrase to also have 128 bit of security because private key bit of security is not more than 128.

[SilverCryptoBullet]

12 words provide 128 bits of entropy.
24 words provide 256 bits of entropy.

It means 24 words are safer in security than 12 words, 256 bits of entropy compares to 128 bits of entropy. 24 words are more secure than 12 words.

Because Bitcoin private key provides 128 bits of entropy, 12 words for your seed phrase is enough.

Don't mix/ rearrange your word orders, it will complicate your recovery process and you have risk to lose your coins.

How to back up a seed phrase?
Bitcoin Q&A: Why is Seed Splitting a Bad Idea?

[headingnorth]

Sure 24 words is somewhat more secure than 12 words but for all practical purposes there is no difference.

Its like the difference between 100 quadrillion and 50 quadrillion.

Sure one number is twice as big as the other but in either case the chances of someone cracking your seed phrase is virtually zero.

[Darker45]

Although, technically, 256 bits of entropy means higher level of unpredictability than 128 bits of entropy, generally speaking, they're both secure enough to protect your funds. What's left to make sure of is that you won't leak it, whether half of it, whether disarranged.

I guess the problem most of the time is not the number of words in your seed phrase but how you safekeep them. Nobody has ever brute-force attack even a 12-word seed phrase.

And, if I may add, a random passphrase provides additional protection.

[Yamane_Keto]

12 vs 24 wallet seed topics has been discussed a lot in the forum, and you can find a lot of in-depth discussions by searching on Google using the word

Code:

12 vs 24 seed bitcointalk

BIP-39 standard enables you to generate 12, 15, 18, 24, but 12 and 24 are the most famous ones, as they both represent 2^256 (24 words) and 2^128 (12 words), so in terms of entropy, your coins are safe, but 24 words increases the risk of losing your bitcoin as losing 5-7 words will cause you to lose everything you own, while it is easy to keep 12 words.

[pooya87]

The number of posible combinations exceeds 2.6 undecillion potential pairings.

What is that weird unit you used? It is not even universal! According to google it is one thing in US standard and another in UK standard and who whos what it means in the rest of the world. Use the universal ways, something like e+36

BTW 2048^12=5.44e+39

Using this examples, i want to conclude this topic saying that both 12 and 24 SP words are secure, but 24 is way more, in one hand we have the dilema of scrambling the words and having the 24 SP its would be imposible to recover, although the 12 SP its definetly more ''easy'' or '' lot less difficult'' than the 24 one. My suggestion is to pick the 24 SP and not scrambling the words , i hope you learned something.

Uranus is far but Neptune is farther! Who cares? We can't travel to either one of them
That's the same with 12 versus 24 words. It is impossible to break a 128-bit entropy that created the 12 word seed phrase. Using 256 bit entropy is obviously stronger but it is like making something impossible more impossible!
Not to mention that a bigger entropy is not providing your keys with more security because the keys derived from it still have 128 bits of security.

[DapanasFruit]

Many of the wallets I am using only require 12-word seed phrase but there are surely some that you can opt to get the other choice which is the 24-word one. I do understand that maybe 24-word can be more secured but then again it can be burdensome on my part inputting those 24 words whenever I need to uninstall and install the wallet. Anyway, the most important thing is that we have the choice on what to pick...if 24-word can give one a more peace of mind then so let it be the choice, otherwise 12-word is enough for me. Now, will this dynamic be changed if we will have the quantum computing staring right before us?

[adaseb]

In general you should just use 12 word seeds. 24 is safer in terms of security however 12 is enough by todays standards to provide more than adequate protection.

Reason why 12 is better is because if you somehow lost 24 seed words, it would be very difficult to remember all of those words, especially in the correct order.

But with 12 it you remember some of your words then there are options to recover them. You could look manually at the dictionary and would have a greater chance of getting your lost seeds back, with 24 it would be impossible.

[0t3p0t]

Although, technically, 256 bits of entropy means higher level of unpredictability than 128 bits of entropy, generally speaking, they're both secure enough to protect your funds. What's left to make sure of is that you won't leak it, whether half of it, whether disarranged.

I guess the problem most of the time is not the number of words in your seed phrase but how you safekeep them. Nobody has ever brute-force attack even a 12-word seed phrase.

And, if I may add, a random passphrase provides additional protection.

Exactly. I can see more people forgot their seed phrases or even misplaced it resulting to their funds lost forever compared to getting bruteforced from the previous years. The most important thing here is how responsible we are to keep our private keys, seed phrases or whatever you call it in a safe place. But I personally use the 24 SP with all my wallets.

[Venik]

24 is obviously more secure, but harder to keep. You can recover 12 words, if you have a part of your seed phrase and you remember it, or if words are rearranged. Can't imagine that with 24 words seed phrase.

[Mpamaegbu]

A few days ago, I was given the option of either choosing a 12 SP or a 24 SP while trying to create a crypto wallet specifically for certain alts I wanted to buy. I've never had that option before. It was either on 12 SP or 24 SP default settings with other wallets I had created in the past. So, I quickly went with the 12. Though there was a note at the bottom of that option that both were secured, the 24 SP was more secured as it read. I chose and created using 12 because I've come to realize that a better part of wallet security begins with us, not the app. No matter how secure we think an app or hardware is, if we aren't safety conscious we won't get the wallet security it provides. For me, the security and safety of my funds begins with me and I try not to compromise that. I've used both 12 and 24 in my seven years in this industry with various wallets and haven't been hacked for once. Know the type of wallets you want to use first before sending your funds to them. Research and find reviews on them before activation.

[Helena Yu]

The rule to secure your coins is no rule.

Some people said 12 words is secure and enough, the other said 24 words is better.

Some people said using passphrase is better, the other said it's not secure because we can lost or forget it.

Some people said non custodial wallet is better, the other said centralized exchange is better because you don't have to pay fees and you can easily recover your coins when you lost your password.

[barto123]

the way i see it:

24 words is more secure - each word creates exponentially more security
however 12 words is easier to remember in a short story. which can can be more secure as people lose their seed all the time

the way the world is going you want to hold your btc in your brain. just hope those nano bots aren't scooping it up

[satscraper]

Using this examples, i want to conclude this topic saying that both 12 and 24 SP words are secure,

They are secure at the assumption of being originated from the truly random numbers. I'm not sure that wallets are capable to  produce SEEDs covering the full available seed-space rather than they not are biased to some extend, let's say to billion or trillion or quadrillion variants.

Thus I would add  ( to any SEED) the additional entropy of at least 128 bits  in the form of 25^th password (aka pass phrase, aka SEED extension aka etc.)

[hZti]

Is there a tool that can try to brute force the correct order of the 24 seed word seed phrase. I would love to give it a try, since it looks much more easy then it actually is.
There is really that weird thing with humans and probabilities that we are not really able to understand how unlikely stuff is.

[cryptomaniac_xxx]

Using this examples, i want to conclude this topic saying that both 12 and 24 SP words are secure, but 24 is way more, in one hand we have the dilema of scrambling the words and having the 24 SP its would be imposible to recover, although the 12 SP its definetly more ''easy'' or '' lot less difficult'' than the 24 one. My suggestion is to pick the 24 SP and not scrambling the words , i hope you learned something.

When adequately protected, a twelve-word seed phrases ensures complete safety.

So for me, it doesn't have to be twenty four seed phrases all the time as I have said, it boils down as how you manage and protect your seed phrases.

[hZti]

Maybe a 24 word seed phrase will however become more relevant in the future when there is more and more computing power available. Is there any calculation if it will be possible to crack 12 word seed phrases with a super computer maybe in the next 50-100 years if you take into consideration how fast the capacity grows?

[Ricardo11]

Yes I definitely use the seed phrase, because it gives me maximum security. I use seed phrase in my wallet and my exchange. I am now using a seed phrase of 12 words, Because rearranging a 24-word seed phrase is a lot of trouble.However I think seed phrase is most needed to keep any wallet or exchange or other important thing safe. And I think any hacker can't bypass the seed phrase. So I mostly rely on seed phrase to keep my wallet safe.

[BlackHatCoiner]

The number of posible combinations exceeds 2.6 undecillion potential pairings.

The number of all possible phrases that contain 12 words, out of 2048, with word repetition, is 2048¹² (~54.4 duodecillion). However, not all phrases are valid, because the last word contains the 4 bits checksum. This reduces the number to 2048¹² / 2⁴ (~3.4 duodecillion). None of these numbers begin with '26', so I'm not quite sure how you got this number.

24 is obviously more secure, but harder to keep.

It means 24 words are safer in security than 12 words, 256 bits of entropy compares to 128 bits of entropy. 24 words are more secure than 12 words.

Bitcoin private keys provide a 128 bits of security. A seed phrase can be 128 bits, 256 bits, 4096 bits, etc., but it won't provide security beyond 128 bits.

Maybe a 24 word seed phrase will however become more relevant in the future when there is more and more computing power available. Is there any calculation if it will be possible to crack 12 word seed phrases with a super computer maybe in the next 50-100 years if you take into consideration how fast the capacity grows?

Let me put it this way: It's computationally easier to work out the private key given a public key than guess a seed phrase with money inside.