Can Bitcoin save a nation that owes a lot of money / Debt

[UmerIdrees]

I was studying a recent financial magazine where there was an article start that Pakistan has taken a lot of debt from other countries and it is almost difficult to pay it back in time.
Although the article did not mention any crypto solution but only focused on having more industries on small and large scales to improve exports and increase the foreign reserves.

Considering this condition of any country, can Bitcoin help in this to recover from this crisis by probably adding BitcoinBTC in national reserves and not only focusing on US Dollars

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[NeuroticFish]

Usually Bitcoin price doesn't really rise when you want and as much as you'd like (although now, fueled by ETF, the rules may change).
However, buying Bitcoin costs money, so the country may have to get into more debt and also the money will be locked in bitcoins, not fueling the economy.

But from what I know, El Salvador has pretty much done the same: bought bitcoins, although their economy looks bad. And obviously, IMF was far from happy.
This for us, bitcoiners, may look like a fun fact, but if the country needs more money afterwards, the standard banks borrowing more will not give that.
So it may be more than tricky to solve this just by buying some bitcoins. Plus it depends on luck and also how fast they'd move. Because buying near ATH is another problem.

[zasad@]

For a country's debts to decrease, its economy must develop. Buying Bitcoin does not increase the economy. The financial sector increases the economy only according to statistical data, but if the profits from this sector are not distributed to real sectors of the economy, such as manufacturing, agriculture, medicine, education and others, then the country will continue to borrow and depend on the policies of other countries.

[Poker Player]

No. Countries like Pakistan, if they want to get out of the hole, have to start by spending less than they earn. Exactly the same thing happens as in a family or a company, not expecting a magical investment to get you out of trouble.

The value of the bitcoins purchased by El Salvador is $150M and the GDP is around $34 billion, meaning that the price increase, although not go bad, will not have a very significant impact.

For a country's debts to decrease, its economy must develop. Buying Bitcoin does not increase the economy.

Well, unless you become famous for making Bitcoin legal and attract investment for it, as has happened in El Salvador, that does help develop the economy. But you're right that just buying Bitcoin doesn't.

[Davidvictorson]

For a country's debts to decrease, its economy must develop. Buying Bitcoin does not increase the economy. The financial sector increases the economy only according to statistical data, but if the profits from this sector are not distributed to real sectors of the economy, such as manufacturing, agriculture, medicine, education and others, then the country will continue to borrow and depend on the policies of other countries.

Bitcoin cannot save Pakistan. Leadership and management can.

Pakistan have a large market and I know this well because as a person from Nigeria, we import clothes, shoes, jewelries, handbags from Pakistan. And I know that they have people from other countries who patronize them. And there is market for anything that they want to sell.
However, I feel that if Pakistan changes their leadership just as El Salvador and invest in their physical and human infrastructure they will in no time clear off their debts.

Good leadership and management will help Pakistan clear off their debt not bitcoin.

[avikz]

Bitcoin is not a magic wand which can save the economy of bankrupt countries. Not sure why people are always over estimating about the power of Bitcoin, but in reality it is just a cryptocurrency. It is not built to replace the banks or to save the economy. Bitcoin has thrived as a parallel currency system and I believe that's exactly where Bitcoin shines.

Pakistan economy can be saved only if they choose to bring peace with their neighbours and if they stop supporting terrorism.

[yhiaali3]

I read an article that mismanagement and lack of good governance are the deep causes of most of Pakistan’s economic problems even though it has abundant natural and human resources; It has the fifth largest gold reserve in the world in Balochistan province, the second largest salt reserve and the sixth largest coal reserve in Punjab, but it was unable to exploit these resources for its economic benefit.

Therefore, if the government, which has all these resources, is constantly borrowing and does not find alternative solutions to pay off the debts, I do not think there is any solution to get out of the crisis, neither Bitcoin nor anything else.

[pakhitheboss]

The first thought that comes to my mind when I hear the name Pakistan is corruption and the second thought is the Army. Bitcoin can be a saviour for Pakistan but you need to ask a few questions from yourself.

Do you think the corrupted leaders and the Army will try to consider Bitcoin as a legal tender? Your country is being played by the US and China for their benefit. Will these powerful countries allow Pakistan to adopt Bitcoin and forget about the US dollar or the Chinese Yuan?

The answer is no! I am sorry about the current economic situation of Pakistan and I don't think the situation will change in the future. If you want to change the way Pakistan is being run then find a good leader. Not everyone can be as Nayib Bukele, the President of El Salvador.

[stompix]

Considering this condition of any country, can Bitcoin help in this to recover from this crisis by probably adding BitcoinBTC in national reserves and not only focusing on US Dollars

How do you add Bitcoins to your reserves when you have no money to pay your current expenses and you would need more $ in order to buy BTC because if you would try to buy $10 billion (that's 10% of Pakistan debt) worth of BTC with Pakistani Rupee the exchange rate would go down by an order a magnitude well before you would be able to purchase that.

There are huge differences between a single individual exchanging some of his earning to Bitcoin which won't move the fx rates by even 0.000001% and a total different thing when a country would embark on a $10 billion foreign currency purchase.

But from what I know, El Salvador has pretty much done the same: bought bitcoins, although their economy looks bad.

Salvador had for two consecutive years the lowest GDP growth in central america, they ran a 700 million deficit last year, they would need with their current holdings Bitcoin at $300k for all their coins to cover one year of deficit!!!

[Despairo]

No, what's the point to have a better investment if the profit will be corrupted by public servant? Pakistan is currently ranks 140/180 countries in corruption perceptions index.

This is the reason why every countries always be same, the rich is still rich, the poor is still poor, even though the president and public servants changed, but they still brought the cultures, if the country is popular with corruption, then the corruption culture won't end.

They need an iron hand president who want to end the corruption culture, don't mind to fire a big civil servant that didn't give any contribution, brave enough to catch sharks that can control few places etc.

[zasad@]

No. Countries like Pakistan, if they want to get out of the hole, have to start by spending less than they earn. Exactly the same thing happens as in a family or a company, not expecting a magical investment to get you out of trouble.

The value of the bitcoins purchased by El Salvador is $150M and the GDP is around $34 billion, meaning that the price increase, although not go bad, will not have a very significant impact.

For a country's debts to decrease, its economy must develop. Buying Bitcoin does not increase the economy.

Well, unless you become famous for making Bitcoin legal and attract investment for it, as has happened in El Salvador, that does help develop the economy. But you're right that just buying Bitcoin doesn't.

If I were the president of the country, I would not legalize Bitcoin. There is a very high risk of potential scam here. The first miners and users received bitcoins for a very small amount, and now one bitcoin costs more than $60,000.
If El Salvador now has unrealized profits, this does not mean that these profits will last forever. Prices are also falling.

[pakhitheboss]

If I were the president of the country, I would not legalize Bitcoin. There is a very high risk of potential scam here. The first miners and users received bitcoins for a very small amount, and now one bitcoin costs more than $60,000.
If El Salvador now has unrealized profits, this does not mean that these profits will last forever. Prices are also falling.

I agree they as in the top brass or the elites who are only 10% will easily corrupt the miners or the financial advisors to get control over Bitcoin. The present government is full of corrupt leaders and they are again in power because of the backdoor Army control. You would not believe it the Army produces everything and is the biggest infrastructure developer in Pakistan.

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary. Assuming they bought Bitcoin when it was in its ATH, last night Bitcoin reached that price point and with the current market condition it is going to create a new ATH in a few days. What will you have to say then about Bitcoin with spot ETF money coming in Bitcoin is going to create some huge ATH.

[zasad@]

If I were the president of the country, I would not legalize Bitcoin. There is a very high risk of potential scam here. The first miners and users received bitcoins for a very small amount, and now one bitcoin costs more than $60,000.
If El Salvador now has unrealized profits, this does not mean that these profits will last forever. Prices are also falling.

I agree they as in the top brass or the elites who are only 10% will easily corrupt the miners or the financial advisors to get control over Bitcoin. The present government is full of corrupt leaders and they are again in power because of the backdoor Army control. You would not believe it the Army produces everything and is the biggest infrastructure developer in Pakistan.

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary. Assuming they bought Bitcoin when it was in its ATH, last night Bitcoin reached that price point and with the current market condition it is going to create a new ATH in a few days. What will you have to say then about Bitcoin with spot ETF money coming in Bitcoin is going to create some huge ATH.

I am a poor communicator on the situation in Pakistan.
But I understand a little about economics.
The very first thing I tell everyone is the words of Warren Buffett: “Bitcoin will cost 0.” And this must be understood correctly.
Nobody knows when this bubble will burst, in a year or in 10-100 years, but it will burst.
For the USA and Europe, this is a very small market, and a collapse in the crypto market will not greatly affect their economy, but for small countries this can be a very fatal mistake.

[pakhitheboss]

I am a poor communicator on the situation in Pakistan.
But I understand a little about economics.
The very first thing I tell everyone is the words of Warren Buffett: “Bitcoin will cost 0.” And this must be understood correctly.
Nobody knows when this bubble will burst, in a year or in 10-100 years, but it will burst.
For the USA and Europe, this is a very small market, and a collapse in the crypto market will not greatly affect their economy, but for small countries this can be a very fatal mistake.

I am a big Bitcoin supporter and I do not think it is a bubble, someone like Warren Buffet who is a known stooge of the US, cannot destroy my belief in Bitcoin. I do agree there is a big risk to consider Bitcoin as a legal tender due to its volatility, but when Bitcoin goes up and you as in a country have Bitcoin as a reserve rather than Gold it does increase a country's reserves.

In Pakistan, the problem is different as the current selected government is full of those who are known to be corrupt. I said selected because of the Pakistan army controlling the output of the election. If the leader is known as corrupt and the Army is known to be the backbone that controls everything happening in Pakistan how would then Bitcoin help that nation? Do a Google search about the current election in Pakistan and you will see how the Pakistani army is controlling everything happening in that country.

[zasad@]

I am a poor communicator on the situation in Pakistan.
But I understand a little about economics.
The very first thing I tell everyone is the words of Warren Buffett: “Bitcoin will cost 0.” And this must be understood correctly.
Nobody knows when this bubble will burst, in a year or in 10-100 years, but it will burst.
For the USA and Europe, this is a very small market, and a collapse in the crypto market will not greatly affect their economy, but for small countries this can be a very fatal mistake.

I am a big Bitcoin supporter and I do not think it is a bubble, someone like Warren Buffet who is a known stooge of the US, cannot destroy my belief in Bitcoin. I do agree there is a big risk to consider Bitcoin as a legal tender due to its volatility, but when Bitcoin goes up and you as in a country have Bitcoin as a reserve rather than Gold it does increase a country's reserves.

In Pakistan, the problem is different as the current selected government is full of those who are known to be corrupt. I said selected because of the Pakistan army controlling the output of the election. If the leader is known as corrupt and the Army is known to be the backbone that controls everything happening in Pakistan how would then Bitcoin help that nation? Do a Google search about the current election in Pakistan and you will see how the Pakistani army is controlling everything happening in that country.

All politicians and businessmen, of course, lie in public speeches, and I would be more afraid to listen to the opinions of those who recommended buying Bitcoin during the last bull cycle.
Gold as a short-term reserve is not a very good way, because transactions with it are controlled in my country and in other countries and there are taxes. But on the shadow market, prices are much lower when selling, and when buying, you need to check the goods, otherwise scammers will sell a gold-plated piece of metal.

[pakhitheboss]

All politicians and businessmen, of course, lie in public speeches, and I would be more afraid to listen to the opinions of those who recommended buying Bitcoin during the last bull cycle.
Gold as a short-term reserve is not a very good way, because transactions with it are controlled in my country and in other countries and there are taxes. But on the shadow market, prices are much lower when selling, and when buying, you need to check the goods, otherwise scammers will sell a gold-plated piece of metal.

I agree that politicians lie upfront and they do use those lies for their own benefits. Whereas in that country politicians scam, use their power to make money for themselves and they get their support from the army as they are in control of everything. They as in the civilians never can say army did it, they call the army as establishment.

Even Wikipedia created a seperate page for them: Allegations of rigging in the 2024 Pakistani general election

[stompix]

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary.

And do you have data backing this claim?
From another of my replies:

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Guatemala  4.1%  3.5%
Panama  10.8%  5.1%
Honduras 4%   3.2%  
Salvador 2.6%  2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8%  3.1%  
Costa Rica 4.6%  4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

[pakhitheboss]

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary.

And do you have data backing this claim?
From another of my replies:

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Guatemala  4.1%  3.5%
Panama  10.8%  5.1%
Honduras 4%   3.2%  
Salvador 2.6%  2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8%  3.1%  
Costa Rica 4.6%  4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

Why would I need data to back my claim? Salvador is a struggling economy and that is why they are trying something new. What's the point for you to suggest that the economy is going in shit. With Bitcoin pumping it is evident they would get their economy into a position where they would be not be in a position to ask guidance from IMF.

Since you are a data fantic now, go look into the borrower list of IMF and then come up with a data. Lol! Think before you reply and then give me a data. Remember we are talking about Pakistan and not a South American countries .

[stompix]

Why would I need data to back my claim?

Because that's what a normal person would do when he makes such claims!

What's the point for you to suggest that the economy is going in shit.

Because that's what realty shows us?
How can you claim otherwise when the country has a bigger deficit, an increasing debt and it has the slowest economic growth of all the region?

With Bitcoin pumping it is evident they would get their economy into a position where they would be not be in a position to ask guidance from IMF.

Salvador need Bitcoin at $350k for all their savings to cover just one year of deficit, so what are they going to do for next year?

Since you are a data fantic now, go look into the borrower list of IMF and then come up with a data.

Oh I got it, if I'm not kissing Bukele's ass and I 'm asking for proof of what he has done good for the economy I'm an undercover agent from the IMF!
But good for you, you have finally found out what's wrong with countries like this, whenever somebody comes and ask for real data or criticizing your take on what you're doing you start throwing shit at him and claim you know better! Good luck with that!

I wonder if Hitler would come back to life and he would buy Bitcoin, would you start praising him for his leadership? 

[pakhitheboss]

^ You are again trolling and trying to bully me as that what you have done earlier. Let's face it you are a troll and I am the person who you always target.

Wait for my reply and do remember you are trolling me about Salvador on a thread where it is about whether a falling economy like Pakistan can survive with Bitcon.

I am going to enjoy this discussion as I have not time now. I will get back to you tomorrow. Please don't hesitate to edit your reply as it is already captured.