Can Bitcoin save a nation that owes a lot of money / Debt

[General_Bitcoin]

As this talk is going maybe I am wrong in my views but still I am going to give few points which are not belonged to bitcoin but related to country Pakistan with as I read and understand this is one of the twelve fertilizer countries which are full of sources, but sadly they have never been able to use them as they wanted due to corruption and many other factors which are not point to talk here but still as mentioned above main issue is Army as well which is controlling this all for decades.
Now they are in deep trouble due to heavy debit and things can go worst with a government which is not backed by common peoples due to rigged elections but still IMF is standing with them because they are also having their own agenda with this all can bitcoin save them, I believe yes but now this all need good strategy and big decisions which are surely not easy but still things are manageable with bitcoin and crypto if you want to solve things, but I have no idea who is going to do this all for this country.

[1715123920]

1715123920

[stompix]

^ You are again trolling and trying to bully me as that what you have done earlier.

Demanding you provide data for unrealistic claims is trolling?

Let's face it you are a troll and I am the person who you always target.

Because you always make ridiculous claims, that's the reason why!
Take your time before posting things that makes no sense and the I won't correct you!
Also just end with posing as victim, you posted some bullshit and I called you on your bullshit, and the next moment you start crying, grow some balls and a thicker skin, if you can't take criticism for the shit you post online stop posting shit!!

I am going to enjoy this discussion as I have not time now. I will get back to you tomorrow.

Done with your signature quota for the day?

[zasad@]

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary.

And do you have data backing this claim?
From another of my replies:

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Guatemala  4.1%  3.5%
Panama  10.8%  5.1%
Honduras 4%   3.2%  
Salvador 2.6%  2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8%  3.1%  
Costa Rica 4.6%  4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

GDP to debt ratio is not a very fair indicator for many countries. Basically, all countries contribute a bunch of financial sector products to GDP, and we can see that in many countries GDP consists of financial sector indicators from 40 to 70%. And the real economy is in an even worse situation.

[stompix]

GDP to debt ratio is not a very fair indicator for many countries. Basically, all countries contribute a bunch of financial sector products to GDP, and we can see that in many countries GDP consists of financial sector indicators from 40 to 70%. And the real economy is in an even worse situation.

GDP to debt is actually a method that makes the economy look better for some poorer countries and those with large shares of black/underground economies.
Here is an interesting comparison, so we assume a 100% debt to GDP.

We take Denmark, Pakistan and Salvador.
Denmark has a GDP of 398 billion USD and a government budget of $130 billions.
So for them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 306 years.

Salvador has a GDP $31 billion of and a government budget of $9.1 billion.
For them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 340 years.

Pakistan has a GDP of 348 billion USD and a government budget of $50 billion.
For them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 696 years.

In short, the Pakistan govemermnt would need to raise taxation and collecting by over 100% to paint the same picture on a same level of GDP to debt ratio.
But this is data, and people hate data, they love twitter memes!

[zasad@]

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country
Debt to GDP Ratio by Country


Top 10 Countries with the Lowest Debt-to-GDP Ratios (%)


"While a low debt-to-GDP ratio is generally desirable, it does not necessarily indicate a healthy economy. Many stagnant or developing economies have a low debt-to-income ratio because both their level of debt and their GDP are low. In fact, in some cases, a country's economy could be healthier in the long run if the country were to borrow from another country and invest heavily in economic growth.."

This site contains everything I wanted to say.
You talk about repayment for a long time, but why did you decide that someone will pay these debts?

[stompix]

You talk about repayment for a long time, but why did you decide that someone will pay these debts?

Because contrary to popular beliefs, debt gets paid!
The debt that was issued 20 years ago is not the debt that is now, countries service their debts (some!!!), despite having a debt ratio of 100% because they can afford it, some countries, even while having a debt of only 20-30% default on it, and you should know better since yours did that twice in two decade. Look at the countries that defaulted and you're going to see that most of them defaulted were countries with very low budget to gdp government collection,  Greece was the only other Europeans country to default other than Russia since the 90's, and at the time it was the only country with such a low tax collection and huge underground economy.

So this is why Japan and the US haven't defaulted for four decades despite all the scaremongering, while Sri Lanka went from 20% to 105% and default in just one.

Also, since we talk facts, in order for Pakistan to pay its debt they would need 1.2 million Bitcoins!
Just to service the deficit at current levels they need 2.4 billions a year so 32 000! Bitcoins, that's 16 times more than what Salvador has each year!!!!
Some really need to understand how huge the world actually is!

[zasad@]

The US cannot declare a default, because this will lead to a sharp depreciation of the dollar against other currencies. And since many countries received loans in US dollars, this means part of their debt will be forgiven due to the depreciation of the dollar. This is something the American government cannot afford.

[pakhitheboss]

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Guatemala  4.1%  3.5%
Panama  10.8%  5.1%
Honduras 4%   3.2%  
Salvador 2.6%  2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8%  3.1%  
Costa Rica 4.6%  4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

Here is my reply to you troll! Please create another sheet where in you show GDP vs Inflation percentage. I would love to see the amount of inflation these countries with high GDP have as the real figure is always inflation percentage. As you trolled me with GDP data I would now like to see the inflation date to understand whether these data are relevant for a country. As I understand the GDP is irrelevant when the inflation is higher. I hope you check the inflation data of EL-Salvadore of 2022 and then rethink how good your data-driven ideology is in 2024.

[stompix]

Please create another sheet where in you show GDP vs Inflation percentage. I would love to see the amount of inflation these countries with high GDP have as the real figure is always inflation percentage. As you trolled me with GDP data I would now like to see the inflation date to understand whether these data are relevant for a country. As I understand the GDP is irrelevant when the inflation is higher. I hope you check the inflation data of EL-Salvadore of 2022 and then rethink how good your data-driven ideology is in 2024.

Why, are you too stupid do it it yourself?

First get at least the name of the country right, but probably that's too hard for you!
Second here is the data
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1341750/inflation-rate-latin-american-countries/

Nicaragua 10.45%
Honduras 9.09%
Costa Rica 8.26%
Salvador 7.2%
Guatemala 6.89%
Belize 6.27%
Panama 2.86%

So, where is genius of Bukele?

[Big one]

Bitcoin is not a magic wand, which can save a country of corruption,never. they can only be saved if they take care of their finance.Using bitcoin to save a debt-ridden nation argue that it could provide several potential benefits. Firstly, bitcoin operates on a decentralized network, meaning it is not controlled by any entity or government.This decentralized could offer greater autonomy and control over monetary policy, reducing dependence on traditional financial institution and potentially mitigating the risk of defaulting on debt obligations .     

[zasad@]

Bitcoin is not a magic wand, which can save a country of corruption,never. they can only be saved if they take care of their finance.Using bitcoin to save a debt-ridden nation argue that it could provide several potential benefits. Firstly, bitcoin operates on a decentralized network, meaning it is not controlled by any entity or government.This decentralized could offer greater autonomy and control over monetary policy, reducing dependence on traditional financial institution and potentially mitigating the risk of defaulting on debt obligations .     

I think that corruption can only be eliminated in an isolated environment. Bitcoin cannot fight corruption, and the state also needs corruption to control officials. Otherwise, officials will be uncontrollable people.
In rich countries there is less corruption at a low level where ordinary citizens interact, but in poor countries you will see corruption all the time.

[NeuroticFish]

I think that corruption can only be eliminated in an isolated environment. Bitcoin cannot fight corruption, and the state also needs corruption to control officials. Otherwise, officials will be uncontrollable people.
In rich countries there is less corruption at a low level where ordinary citizens interact, but in poor countries you will see corruption all the time.

Imho the logic is a bit different.

First of all you need clear differentiation between the powers in the state. Of course, because of corruption, this will not always work well, but in time it will adjust.

Then training is also necessary: those fighting corruption have to learn to find it and also how to find and lock the illegal money. Of course, you can argue that this costs money. I will say that even in the corrupt countries people can learn, just in many cases the incentive is not great and not so visible plus the politicians try to keep the population uneducated so they can keep earning their votes.

Sooner or later the population will fed up and will stop voting the corrupt people especially if their corruption is exposed often enough.


Now about the "in rich countries" part. Many countries have become rich through 2 "pillars": higher education of people and less money stolen through corruption. So imho a country becomes rich by fighting the corruption, not the other way around. And when the different powers of the state work well, the corrupt people get - sooner or later - caught. That's what you find "less corruption" "in rich countries". They are not better nor more honest. Just more efficient through education.

[zasad@]

I think that corruption can only be eliminated in an isolated environment. Bitcoin cannot fight corruption, and the state also needs corruption to control officials. Otherwise, officials will be uncontrollable people.
In rich countries there is less corruption at a low level where ordinary citizens interact, but in poor countries you will see corruption all the time.

Imho the logic is a bit different.

First of all you need clear differentiation between the powers in the state. Of course, because of corruption, this will not always work well, but in time it will adjust.

Then training is also necessary: those fighting corruption have to learn to find it and also how to find and lock the illegal money. Of course, you can argue that this costs money. I will say that even in the corrupt countries people can learn, just in many cases the incentive is not great and not so visible plus the politicians try to keep the population uneducated so they can keep earning their votes.

Sooner or later the population will fed up and will stop voting the corrupt people especially if their corruption is exposed often enough.


Now about the "in rich countries" part. Many countries have become rich through 2 "pillars": higher education of people and less money stolen through corruption. So imho a country becomes rich by fighting the corruption, not the other way around. And when the different powers of the state work well, the corrupt people get - sooner or later - caught. That's what you find "less corruption" "in rich countries". They are not better nor more honest. Just more efficient through education.

You are talking about voting, but even using the example of my country, I can say that this does not work. Previously, we had elections of mayors of cities, chairmen of settlements, governors, but now there are only presidential elections. (now Duma deputies appoint people to the positions of regional governors, the governor appoints the mayor of the city and so on down the chain). Elections to the State Duma are based on factions, and the voter cannot influence the list of candidates. After the elections, each faction receives a quota depending on the percentage of votes received.
The number of elected positions is reduced very sharply, so elections are not anti-graft.

[pakhitheboss]

Why, are you too stupid do it it yourself?

Stop degrading me! Are you out of your mind when you call anyone stupid? You have so much dysfunction happening in your mind and yourself that you forget whom you are talking to as you are som much filled with pride that you do not understand that you are talking to another human who has sense.

First get at least the name of the country right, but probably that's too hard for you!
Second here is the data
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1341750/inflation-rate-latin-american-countries/

Nicaragua 10.45%
Honduras 9.09%
Costa Rica 8.26%
Salvador 7.2%
Guatemala 6.89%
Belize 6.27%
Panama 2.86%

So, where is genius of Bukele?

Providing stats does not prove you are wealthy or poor. Some things cannot be explained with stats, it has only been a few years which you know and still ignore that you do not know. A country coming out of an economic situation will take about 10 years. If you are so eager then keep on going with the replies. You of all the people how come you get to be a DT1 for bullying? If you can say that you won't tag me with a negative trust then I will show you what I can do.

[NeuroticFish]

You are talking about voting, but even using the example of my country, I can say that this does not work. Previously, we had elections

In your case there are no different powers in the state, hence even the votes are stolen: the result of the votes is not related at all with the number of voters, not with what they've elected.
Plus, while even in democracies you get, in many cases, to the point you have to vote between a couple of bad choices, I expect that in your cases the choices are... simply a bad joke.

Sadly my logic doesn't work in dictatorship. In such cases, the history has shown that sadly the only solution is a revolution. And that is painful and risky, usually with many dead and with unknown chances of success, including the fact that the regime coming afterwards will probably not be exactly what the vast population was hoping for.
Sorry... I have no solution in your case... 

[YOSHIE]

Considering this condition of any country, can Bitcoin help in this to recover from this crisis by probably adding BitcoinBTC in national reserves and not only focusing on US Dollars

Legally it cannot, Bitcoin cannot be created and included in state law, Bitcoin cannot legally be held accountable to legal entities, therefore it cannot save the state debt, Don't look at the value and investment and trading cycle, that's another story, indeed Bitcoin has good value, but it can't be underestimated.

The country has legal regulations regarding debt and money circulating in the country, of course all of this is bound by law, the country does not want to take risks with Bitcoin, because it can only be accessed via the internet and Bitcoin cannot be used as a single law to settle state debt.

An example that can be seen in El Salvador, even though they adopted Bitcoin on a large scale and was recognized by the president, El Salvador's national debt is still ballooning, the dollar has become the basic guide because it is legal and officially issued by world and American banks, Dollars are legally enforceable everywhere, Bitcoin is not like that only in certain cases, legally it cannot help with national debt, but as an investment it may be suitable.

[Gozie51]

For a country's debts to decrease, its economy must develop. Buying Bitcoin does not increase the economy. The financial sector increases the economy only according to statistical data, but if the profits from this sector are not distributed to real sectors of the economy, such as manufacturing, agriculture, medicine, education and others, then the country will continue to borrow and depend on the policies of other countries.

This is right. Investing in bitcoin for the purpose of ROI to repay debts is only going to be a temporal measure and not long lasting thereby plunging the economy back to where it belongs because they will still go back borrowing. A country can make profit in bull season only either with halving because of demand and volatility that will be created and so when the season is off what happens?

Like you have narrated, to take a country out of economic woes and under development, first the country must wipe itself off from corruption because that is a knife that cuts through proper economic planning. Such countries with bad economy have bunch of corrupt government officials and politicians who when infrastructures are located through them, they embezzle the money into private use and then leaving those neighborhood at the mercy of what would have been prevented with such money budgeted.

For economy to grow and leave the poverty and indebtedness line, it must take capital projects and real investment serious. This will increase GDP and improve stand of living.

Human development i and education must also come into the fore and proper budgeting/planning must be made including monitoring. Education is the bedrock of innovation leading to manufacturing. So when this is done, there will be growth in the manufacturing sector and then exporting will be increased while importation is reduced and foreign currency reserve will improve which will bring borrowing to the normal and lowest minimum.

So it takes real planning and effort to draw a country out from borrowing to grow the economy internationally and not by temporal means of bitcoin investment.

[Maus0728]

I don't think so, depending on how big their debt is and I'm assuming it's going to be in the billions, they're going to need to accumulate a lot of bitcoin or maybe even invest a huge part of their national budget into bitcoin acquisition since mining after this halving might not be as profitable, with the current price of bitcoin, they need to be on the level of Microstrategy to be able to make payments for their debts and it's a hard task at hand to be honest, that the answer to the question is that it's probably not a way to save Pakistan's debts through bitcoin.

[Gozie51]

I don't think so, depending on how big their debt is and I'm assuming it's going to be in the billions, they're going to need to accumulate a lot of bitcoin or maybe even invest a huge part of their national budget into bitcoin acquisition since mining after this halving might not be as profitable, with the current price of bitcoin, they need to be on the level of Microstrategy to be able to make payments for their debts and it's a hard task at hand to be honest, that the answer to the question is that it's probably not a way to save Pakistan's debts through bitcoin.

They would be making great mistake if they would invest their budget money in bitcoin, that means they would have to wait for at least a year for the bull to be matured before they cash out into paying countries that they are indebted to. That one year of investment and waiting would have been the year they would implement the budget into different sectors of their economy to see how they can make progress in that year. It will not be a good idea for a country to invest in bitcoin in the hope to build the economy through it . El Salvador for instance have not been a super country financially having invested in bitcoin . In fact they have lost huge value of their bitcoin investment because of the expectation is yet to be accomplished as bitcoin bull is still not there yet, Nayib Bukele is trying to win his second term, reconvince businesses on the need to use bitcoin .

[zasad@]

For a country's debts to decrease, its economy must develop. Buying Bitcoin does not increase the economy. The financial sector increases the economy only according to statistical data, but if the profits from this sector are not distributed to real sectors of the economy, such as manufacturing, agriculture, medicine, education and others, then the country will continue to borrow and depend on the policies of other countries.

This is right. Investing in bitcoin for the purpose of ROI to repay debts is only going to be a temporal measure and not long lasting thereby plunging the economy back to where it belongs because they will still go back borrowing. A country can make profit in bull season only either with halving because of demand and volatility that will be created and so when the season is off what happens?

Like you have narrated, to take a country out of economic woes and under development, first the country must wipe itself off from corruption because that is a knife that cuts through proper economic planning. Such countries with bad economy have bunch of corrupt government officials and politicians who when infrastructures are located through them, they embezzle the money into private use and then leaving those neighborhood at the mercy of what would have been prevented with such money budgeted.

For economy to grow and leave the poverty and indebtedness line, it must take capital projects and real investment serious. This will increase GDP and improve stand of living.

Human development i and education must also come into the fore and proper budgeting/planning must be made including monitoring. Education is the bedrock of innovation leading to manufacturing. So when this is done, there will be growth in the manufacturing sector and then exporting will be increased while importation is reduced and foreign currency reserve will improve which will bring borrowing to the normal and lowest minimum.

So it takes real planning and effort to draw a country out from borrowing to grow the economy internationally and not by temporal means of bitcoin investment.

You write the right thoughts, but corruption is difficult to get rid of, because it is a method of management. If you remember the orange revolutions that large countries carried out in small countries in the East and Africa, then their result was something like this. The organizers of these revolutions realized that the new revolutionaries were even worse and were incapable of anything. To restore order in the country requires huge investments. The organizers had only one goal: to restore order, and then build a profitable business and make money.
But since this does not work, now the organizers are trying to finance different groups that are fighting for power, so that they solve the problems of the organizers. And if nothing works out, then they resort to terrorism.