Electrum seed words on Trezor Hardware Wallet

[Sidney986]

I bought a Trezor hardware wallet..  I read in a previous post I should generate the seed words in Trezor for use in electrum. Trezor only allows me to generate 24 word seeds which may not be future compatible with electrum wallet.

Am I correct in thinking that Trezor wallet will be fully future compatible with electrum wallet if I create the 12 word seed and passphrase in electrum wallet and  use it in Trezor.  I would do this air gapped.

[1714685031]

1714685031

[1714685031]

1714685031

[1714685031]

1714685031

[Charles-Tim]

Is that Trezor one? I think Trezor T and Trezor Safe 3 are generating 12 word seed phrases.

Do not be concerned about the length of your seed phrase. 12, 15, 18, 21 or 24 words are all BIP39 compatible. You can generate it on Trezor. It is also an open source wallet. Although, if the computer is completely airgapped and you know what you are doing and having no mistakes, it is also safe if you use Electrum.

[Mia Chloe]

Just like Charles-Tim mentioned, you are okay mate.
As long as it's not a wallet with custom seed and is not a custom lightning wallet it will be compatible.

[Zaguru12]

You can import the Trezor seed phrase into electrum because the wallet is compatible with Bip 39 seed phrase which Trezor uses.

But why do you want to import your cold wallet to an online wallet, all what you need I just to create a watch only wallet by importing your master public key to the electrum wallet.

Also if your concern is about importing your Trezor generated seed phrase to any wallet in future then there is nothing to worry about because the seed phrase is in BIP 39 format or compatibility and there will be wallets to recover it no matter the length of the word. Wallet like BlueWallet can do that, electrum also can

[Pmalek]

If you generated your seed with Trezor, there is no need to worry about Electrum. Your seed isn't supposed to be imported into Electrum. You only connect the two to use Electrum as the interface instead of the Trezor Suite. Your keys remain on the hardware wallet. On the other hand, if you are planning on using Electrum as a cold wallet, then there is no need to include your Trezor in that setup. You sign the transactions on your airgapped device and broadcast them on an internet-connected computer.   

But why do you want to import your cold wallet to an online wallet, all what you need I just to create a watch only wallet by importing your master public key to the electrum wallet.

It wouldn't be an online wallet the way it was explained in the OP. He would use Electrum as a cold wallet.

Am I correct in thinking that Trezor wallet will be fully future compatible with electrum wallet if I create the 12 word seed and passphrase in electrum wallet and  use it in Trezor.  I would do this air gapped.

[dkbit98]

I bought a Trezor hardware wallet..  I read in a previous post I should generate the seed words in Trezor for use in electrum. Trezor only allows me to generate 24 word seeds which may not be future compatible with electrum wallet.

That is not true.
I am 100% sure you can generate 12 word seed in Trezor hardware wallets.
I don't know who suggested such a terrible idea to use hardaware wallet seeds that are offline and then to import them into electrum wallet, you should never do that!

Am I correct in thinking that Trezor wallet will be fully future compatible with electrum wallet if I create the 12 word seed and passphrase in electrum wallet and  use it in Trezor.  I would do this air gapped.

Don't do that.
If you want to use Electrum use their native format, not bip39, but DUY ''I-Know-Better'' air-gapped setup is usually best way to lose your coins forever  

[Sidney986]

Thanks for the replies,

I should have mentioned it's a Trezor model One.

Good to know electrum will support 24 seed words and pass phrase via bip 39 option for Trezor.

[Pmalek]

Good to know electrum will support 24 seed words and pass phrase via bip 39 option for Trezor.

May I ask what the end-goal is?
Let's say you create your seed with Trezor, what are you planning to do next? Are you planning on importing your seed into Electrum? If your Trezor stops working one day, will you buy another hardware wallet or import your seed into Electrum?

[Lucius]

May I ask what the end-goal is?
~snip~

I just hope that his goal is not to create a seed with Trezor, and then use it for desktop/mobile wallets. Some people usually do this because they want to have the same wallet on their computer and smartphone, which is of course completely wrong and risky. That's why we have cases where people claim that someone hacked their HW, only to find out later that they saved their seed in the cloud/e-mail or that they used it in some other wallets.

Unless there is no other choice, seed generated in a secure environment should not be entered into any desktop/mobile wallet, and especially not into any online wallet.

[Pmalek]

I just hope that his goal is not to create a seed with Trezor, and then use it for desktop/mobile wallets.

Me neither. That's why I asked the user what they are planning to do. Those new to hardware wallets may believe that connecting a hardware and software wallet entails importing the seed into the latter. That's not the way that connection is supposed to be established. The seed and private keys must remain on the device. If the hardware wallet breaks, get a new one. Don't get scared or uncomfortable and input your seed into hot wallets just to see if it will work. That just increases the possibility of compromising the safety of your coins.

[Sidney986]

Good to know electrum will support 24 seed words and pass phrase via bip 39 option for Trezor.

May I ask what the end-goal is?
Let's say you create your seed with Trezor, what are you planning to do next? Are you planning on importing your seed into Electrum? If your Trezor stops working one day, will you buy another hardware wallet or import your seed into Electrum?

I keep my Bitcoin air gapped as I think it's safer than on Trezor that requires regular firmware updates..  The Trezor wallet is only for smaller amounts as quicker to sign a transaction.  Yes I will buy another Trezor should it fail, but I like knowing the seed words and pass phrase also work on an air gapped Electrum wallet.

[Pmalek]

I keep my Bitcoin air gapped as I think it's safer than on Trezor that requires regular firmware updates.

A properly airgapped computer is safer than a hardware wallet connected to the internet.

The Trezor wallet is only for smaller amounts as quicker to sign a transaction.  Yes I will buy another Trezor should it fail, but I like knowing the seed words and pass phrase also work on an air gapped Electrum wallet.

OK, good. I was worried that your intentions were to export your seed from Trezor and import it into an Electrum hot wallet. Electrum supports BIP-39 seed phrases and Electrum's native seed format, so you shouldn't have problems there. The only other software wallet I know of that supports both seed formats is Blue Wallet.

[dkbit98]

I keep my Bitcoin air gapped as I think it's safer than on Trezor that requires regular firmware updates..  The Trezor wallet is only for smaller amounts as quicker to sign a transaction.  Yes I will buy another Trezor should it fail, but I like knowing the seed words and pass phrase also work on an air gapped Electrum wallet.

So you think that Electrum wallet and operating system on your computer doesn't need any updates?  
I could argue that Electrum releases updates more often than Trezor is doing for their firmware.
You don't have to update Trezor device if you don't want to do it, except if there is some serious security issues with old firmware.

[Husna QA]

I bought a Trezor hardware wallet..  I read in a previous post I should generate the seed words in Trezor for use in electrum. Trezor only allows me to generate 24 word seeds which may not be future compatible with electrum wallet.

Trezor Model One, by default, uses a 24-word seed, but you can still use 12 words. It's just that it would be better to use the default. Meanwhile, Trezor T and Safe 3 default to using 12-word seeds.

Trezor Model One and the 24-Word Seed

The Trezor Model One uses a 24-word seed to enhance security during the basic recovery process on the host computer. When you enter 12 words on your computer in random order, the entropy in random order may not be sufficient to ensure a high level of security. In this case, using a 24-word seed is essential.

However, if you choose not to recover your wallet on the host computer and instead enter all the words directly on the device, a 12-word seed is sufficient for securing your wallet. With the introduction of the Trezor Model T and its touchscreen interface, the need for using a 24-word seed for recovery on the host computer is no longer necessary.

I advise you not to use the seed phrase generated from Trezor in Electrum or vice versa.

I keep my Bitcoin air gapped as I think it's safer than on Trezor that requires regular firmware updates..  The Trezor wallet is only for smaller amounts as quicker to sign a transaction.  Yes I will buy another Trezor should it fail, but I like knowing the seed words and pass phrase also work on an air gapped Electrum wallet.

So you think that Electrum wallet and operating system on your computer doesn't need any updates?  ::)
I could argue that Electrum releases updates more often than Trezor is doing for their firmware.
You don't have to update Trezor device if you don't want to do it, except if there is some serious security issues with old firmware.

Well, Electrum releases updates more frequently. Electrum released the version 4.5.4 update a few days ago, and one of the improvements in this update was related to the Trezor hardware wallet.

# Release 4.5.4 (March 14, 2024)
-snip-
 * Hardware wallets:
   - Trezor:
     - fix: allow adding SLIP-19 ownership proofs to complete inputs (#8910)

[Cricktor]

While Electrum can still import BIP-39 seeds generated by some other wallets, it can't generate new BIP-39 compatible seeds. So for OP there's no way to create a new wallet with new mnemonic recovery words in Electrum and use that wallet in Trezor by only using the mnemonic recovery words and appropriate derivation path. Most other wallets don't use and understand an Electrum mnemonic seed.
(You can make it work if you transfer the master private key for a wallet with derived private keys or transfer the master public key for a watch-only wallet that has no private keys but which can derive public keys and public addresses.)

[zabzob]

I keep my Bitcoin air gapped as I think it's safer than on Trezor that requires regular firmware updates..  The Trezor wallet is only for smaller amounts as quicker to sign a transaction.  Yes I will buy another Trezor should it fail, but I like knowing the seed words and pass phrase also work on an air gapped Electrum wallet.

So you think that Electrum wallet and operating system on your computer doesn't need any updates?  
I could argue that Electrum releases updates more often than Trezor is doing for their firmware.
You don't have to update Trezor device if you don't want to do it, except if there is some serious security issues with old firmware.

@OP My method for mitigating the risk of faulty or malicious updates is to only use reputable open source wallets. That alone should be enough, but for a little added security you can check the release notes of the updates and only install them if they have important security patches or added features that you would actually use. That way you can usually wait a long time before updating, by which time any exploits etc are likely to have been discovered by experts in bitcoin community auditing the code.

Another rule of thumb for me is to choose the most widely used of the quality wallets, since you'll have the largest number of people vetting the software. Also wallets that have been around for a long time and have an established track record of reliability. Electrum and Trezor are solid choices in both of those areas.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I keep my Bitcoin air gapped as I think it's safer than on Trezor that requires regular firmware updates..

Even if Trezor required no updates, the airgapped wallet would still be safer. Hardware wallets that require connection to an Internet connected computer are not airgapped.

So you think that Electrum wallet and operating system on your computer doesn't need any updates?

They do, but if they're installed in an airgapped computer as they say, then almost all the risks of not updating are mitigated, because the risk of not updating almost always has to do with an attacker compromising your device via some communication channel. If it's airgapped, you can't compromise it, unless physically.

[Pmalek]

While Electrum can still import BIP-39 seeds generated by some other wallets, it can't generate new BIP-39 compatible seeds. So for OP there's no way to create a new wallet with new mnemonic recovery words in Electrum and use that wallet in Trezor by only using the mnemonic recovery words and appropriate derivation path. Most other wallets don't use and understand an Electrum mnemonic seed.

Correct. The only wallet I know of that understands Electrum's seed standard is Blue Wallet. However, that's a software wallet, not a hardware wallet.
 

(You can make it work if you transfer the master private key for a wallet with derived private keys or transfer the master public key for a watch-only wallet that has no private keys but which can derive public keys and public addresses.)

The problem with that method is that Electrum doesn't allow you to import individual private keys or master keys either. That's true for many other popular hardware wallet brands as well.
Now when I mentioned it, I have never done any research if airgapped HWs like Passport, Seedsigner, or the Jade support the import of private keys.

[Cricktor]

(You can make it work if you transfer the master private key for a wallet with derived private keys or transfer the master public key for a watch-only wallet that has no private keys but which can derive public keys and public addresses.)

The problem with that method is that Electrum doesn't allow you to import individual private keys or master keys either. That's true for many other popular hardware wallet brands as well.

I didn't mean to import individual private keys as this is usually not possible in HD wallets as such imported (unrelated!) private keys can't be restored by the wallet's recovery words. Usually you can only sweep private keys, ie. transfer coins to addresses "native" to the particular HD wallet. I didn't also mean to import a master key to an already existing wallet.

Electrum can create a wallet by importing or rather specifying a master key, not sure if you meant to exclude this with your statement. When you create a Standard wallet you can specify to import a master key for the Keystore (the second step of the Install Wizard) --> Use a master key
xpub/ypub/zpub for watch-only wallets
xprv/yprv/zprv for spending wallets

Now when I mentioned it, I have never done any research if airgapped HWs like Passport, Seedsigner, or the Jade support the import of private keys.

Some might offer to setup a wallet by importing a master key and derivation path details, but I doubt, as there's the problem how to input such keys error-free, but no individual private keys eg. in WIF format when the latter have no relation to the HD wallet at all.

[Pmalek]

Some might offer to setup a wallet by importing a master key and derivation path details, but I doubt, as there's the problem how to input such keys error-free, but no individual private keys eg. in WIF format when the latter have no relation to the HD wallet at all.

The easiest way to do it would be by scanning a QR code for hardware wallets and signing devices that support that option. Can you imagine having to enter a private key character by character using something like a Ledger, Trezor, or the Jade?! But in this day and age when all respectable wallets are HD wallets, there is no need for such a functionality.