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Author Topic: Stop adding features to Bitcoin that don't facilitate its use as electronic cash  (Read 729 times)
we-btc (OP)
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March 18, 2024, 02:17:35 PM
 #1

Bitcoin was designed to be "electronic cash".  Nothing should be changed in core that does not support this mission.

The title of the Bitcoin white paper - "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System".

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March 18, 2024, 02:21:35 PM
 #2

What are those features?

R


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March 18, 2024, 02:31:07 PM
 #3

What are those features?
Ordinals, Runes and anything that is decreasing the efficiency of the network while increasing fees. The purpose of the network is to provide a "peer-to-peer electronic cash" system.  Anything that is not directly related to this mission should not be in the code.

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March 18, 2024, 02:34:38 PM
 #4

Even though we don't agree with Ordinals and all kinds of things in the Blockchain, we have to accept it, because the freedom that bitcoin creates also brings things that we don't like very much... So time and the market itself to say what will survive or not... And not there is nothing we can do but let time tell who is right.

.
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March 18, 2024, 02:45:59 PM
Merited by ABCbits (1)
 #5

Ordinals, Runes and anything that is decreasing the efficiency of the network while increasing fees. The purpose of the network is to provide a "peer-to-peer electronic cash" system.  Anything that is not directly related to this mission should not be in the code.
Those aren't features in Bitcoin, but shitcoins projects that want to attack Bitcoin. Fortunately, I don't see any discussion or hype about this shitcoins anymore, so it's good most people are now forget about ordinals.

I thought you want to answer the feature from Bitcoin Improvement Proposal, that's why I ask which one.

R


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March 18, 2024, 02:46:52 PM
 #6

Even though we don't agree with Ordinals and all kinds of things in the Blockchain, we have to accept it, because the freedom that bitcoin creates also brings things that we don't like very much... So time and the market itself to say what will survive or not... And not there is nothing we can do but let time tell who is right.

You make a valid argument.

But I will restate what I think is the core issue here: Bitcoin is a system of electronic cash. As a system of electronic cash it has transformative power.  Let's keep it that way.

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March 18, 2024, 03:00:55 PM
 #7

What are those features?
Ordinals, Runes and anything that is decreasing the efficiency of the network while increasing fees. The purpose of the network is to provide a "peer-to-peer electronic cash" system.  Anything that is not directly related to this mission should not be in the code.
Well, as much as I will love to agree with you, let's also not forget that high bitcoin transaction fees have existed even far before ordinals and all of other features you mentioned came into the picture.

And sorry to also say this, if you really think that bitcoin can only serve as an electronic payment system, even at this point; bud, wake up from sleep for you must be day-dreaming.
With all the current developments around bitcoin, with all its achievements so far, it is crystal clear that the majority of bitcoin buyers are not buying to spend it on goods or use it to pay for services, but majority are buying bitcoin for and as investment, if not all actually.. Go around town, many people hold bitcoin, and there are several outlets willing to accept bitcoin, but still, customers prefer to pay with fiat, and keep their bitcoin as investment for future profit.

And personally, I would rather sell a small part of my bitcoin, convert it to fiat and pay for what ever I want to purchase, than spend bitcoin to buy it, yeah, the white paper said "electronic peer to peer cash system", but bitcoin as achieved and surpassed that.

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March 18, 2024, 03:05:56 PM
 #8

I think you also mean about Bitcoin as an investment, asset or a store of value. If these things that I've mentioned are also those features that you're pointing out.
There's no way to stop it because of its nature, supply limit and design, these features are inborn to Bitcoin and we as users, investors, holders or whatever you call yourself, we have to adopt it and use it with what we're comfortable of. No one stops us from using it as a p2p e-cash and the same goes for the other features. But, I hate ordinals.  Smiley

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March 18, 2024, 03:14:01 PM
 #9

Ordinals, Runes and anything that is decreasing the efficiency of the network while increasing fees. The purpose of the network is to provide a "peer-to-peer electronic cash" system.  Anything that is not directly related to this mission should not be in the code.
Bitcoin developers pave way to the development of Ordinals and BRC20 tokens but they are not the developers of the tokens. It was later seen as a bug but which might intentionally be included by bitcoin developers.

With the existence of the tokens, the developers and miners can make fast and low fee transactions possible but that is not what is happening, but it is possible.

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March 18, 2024, 03:47:04 PM
 #10

Short of switching to closed-source code (which I hope will never happen), I don't see how such things are meant to be controlled.  Anyone can build what they want and there isn't a way to stop them.  Bitcoin doesn't have a hierarchy where you ask for permission to do stuff.  If someone writes code and then other people run that code, things can happen.  Even if other people disagree.

If you want more features that facilitate usage as a currency, either get coding, or pay some developers to write some code you do want to see.  That's the only way things get done.

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March 18, 2024, 03:59:12 PM
 #11

"Added features" is a bit of an improper way to put it. There are no features added, apart from softforks like Segwit and Taproot of course. Ordinals is a concept that makes use of the already existent features.

You don't like paying high fees. None of us does. However, it is the nature of the system such that the demand and supply of the block space defines the transaction fees. Censoring a transaction you don't like is a thing that happens in fiat. Not in here.

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March 18, 2024, 04:23:03 PM
 #12

Indeed Ordinals and Runes are very antithetical to Bitcoin's purpose. Adding trash data to the Blockchain makes no sense especially provided that there's no monetary value attached to these transactions, instead they act as a pointer to an artificial "token" or image file, which is a gross abuse of a distributed ledger. Some things like image storage make much more sense with more centralized infrastructure.

On the one hand Core developers have been very slow to quell this abuse of bugs and overlooked features that are prone to abuse. Because not only is adding trash data on the Blockchain with OPcode abuse a bug,  but the Taproot update also gives them a discount...

For now, if you are a miner, you can transfer your hash on ocean.xyz and support a pool that doesn't mine ordinal and such transactions. Hopefully the core devs also listen to the community's needs sooner or later.

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March 18, 2024, 04:32:40 PM
 #13

I also don't like Ordinals, and I think that Bitcoin should be optimized as a currency (for example, SegWit was a good change because it optimized transactions). But Bitcoin was built is something open, decentralized, something that gives freedom. And building up other things is arguably a part of that freedom. As for the point that Bitcoin was made as electronic cash and should thus stay this way, some can correctly point out that most people probably don't use Bitcoin as electronic cash. People are interested in Bitcoin as a safe haven, as an investment opportunity or as something similar. So with new uses come new transformations.

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March 18, 2024, 04:46:31 PM
 #14

What are those features?
Ordinals, Runes and anything that is decreasing the efficiency of the network while increasing fees. The purpose of the network is to provide a "peer-to-peer electronic cash" system.  Anything that is not directly related to this mission should not be in the code.

It's not a feature though! But I do agree with you! Ordinals are absolute nonsense. It is clogging the network and pushing the transaction fees to an unreasonable extent.

Couple of months back I heard that Bitcoin developers are planning to ban ordinals to function within Bitcoin blockchain. But didn't hear much after that. This is really needed in order to save Bitcoin network.

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March 18, 2024, 05:05:49 PM
 #15

Couple of months back I heard that Bitcoin developers are planning to ban ordinals to function within Bitcoin blockchain. But didn't hear much after that. This is really needed in order to save Bitcoin network.

That sounds a little dramatic, heh.  The network is far from requiring "saving".  Ordinals is just some inconsiderate shitehawks looking to make money by selling worthless crap to idiots while utilising resources in an incredibly inefficient way.  In no way is it a threat to the network.  It's mainly a threat to gullible suckers who buy the crap and get ripped off.  Fortunately, fools are finite in supply, so the scam won't last forever.  Eventually, people will start to wise up and see it for the trash it is.

I would argue that a bigger threat to the network is people misguidedly asking for devs to be the arbiters of what transactions are allowed or not.  No one should have that role in a decentralised network.

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SamReomo
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March 18, 2024, 05:11:10 PM
 #16

These days most people rather consider Bitcoin as a safe asset for investment purpose rather than a electronic cash. There are many other crypto-currencies that can be used better for the purpose of payments than Bitcoin due to its high fees. You can't convince everyone to consider it as an electronic cash anymore.

Even if you read wall observer thread of this forum then you'll find that most of the OG's consider Bitcoin as an asset rather than a payment system. They believe in holding it for the long-term to earn profits with each bull run. So, considering Bitcoin as P2P payment gateway alone would not be a wise choice these days.

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March 18, 2024, 05:27:57 PM
 #17

These days most people rather consider Bitcoin as a safe asset for investment purpose rather than a electronic cash. There are many other crypto-currencies that can be used better for the purpose of payments than Bitcoin due to its high fees. You can't convince everyone to consider it as an electronic cash anymore.

But that's only because people don't look at the big picture.  All of the stuff that will make Bitcoin scalable, efficient and more conducive to use as a daily currency will likely happen on higher layers that haven't been built yet.  The primary function of the base protocol is to be resilient and secure.  And it is.

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March 18, 2024, 05:31:55 PM
Last edit: March 18, 2024, 05:54:03 PM by franky1
 #18

These days most people rather consider Bitcoin as a safe asset for investment purpose rather than a electronic cash. There are many other crypto-currencies that can be used better for the purpose of payments than Bitcoin due to its high fees. You can't convince everyone to consider it as an electronic cash anymore.

But that's only because people don't look at the big picture.  All of the stuff that will make Bitcoin scalable, efficient and more conducive to use as a daily currency will likely happen on higher layers that haven't been built yet.  The primary function of the base protocol is to be resilient and secure.  And it is.

"higher"?? pfft.. laughable!

you mean LOWER LEVELS
stop trying to promote your crappy subnetwork as being "higher" (subliminally: better)

your stupid subtle wording is not going un noticed.. the subnetworks you adore and want everyone to abandon bitcoin for just doesnt do as promised.. and no patience will fix those problems of the subnetwork

yes YET TO BE BUILT subnetworks will have NICHES for certain use-cases, but bitcoin network still needs to scale.. stop trying to assume bitcoin needs to stagnate and be patient whilst you and your clowns promote everyone should shift to other networks and abandon using bitcoin for in your inferior minds opinion of abandoning usage on the bitcoin network being a benefit to bitcoiners .. cos its not a benefit to bitcoiners

making bitcoin more of a headache/expense just to transact, more congested, bloated with meaningless junk. is not a benefit to bitcoiners
bitcoins never leave the bitcoin network.. using another network with IOU unsettled units(tokens pegged) is not the same thing
using another network doesnt make you a bitcoiner, it makes you a subnetworker
using a CEX custodian doesnt make you a bitcoiner

#not-your-keys-not-your-coin


him trying to say junk is ok to be allowed to continue, but genuine bitcoin transactions should not happen.. is not a benefit to bitcoiners

..
"resilient and secure"?? pfft.. laughable!
doomad loves that bitcoins rules got softened.. its another headache added to bitcoin to promote his favoured subnetworks that everyone (in his mind) should move over to use
he says people should not buy coffee/pizza/groceries on bitcoin ($2-$200) (0.00003000-0.00300000)
but junk meme of monkey/json junk should be allowed on bitcoin  ($0.20) (0.00000300)
doomad doesnt want the rules to be hardened again(secured) as a secure resilient network harms his subnetwork promotion games

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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March 18, 2024, 06:05:16 PM
Last edit: March 18, 2024, 06:20:59 PM by franky1
 #19

Bitcoin developers pave way to the development of Ordinals and BRC20 tokens but they are not the developers of the tokens. It was later seen as a bug but which might intentionally be included by bitcoin developers.

the exploit/bug was a known thing and warned of consequences in 2016 before the activation/opening of the bug(softening of the rules) occurred in 2017**
the result only shown itself in later years when idiots used the exploit to cause headaches

Short of switching to closed-source code (which I hope will never happen), I don't see how such things are meant to be controlled.  Anyone can build what they want and there isn't a way to stop them.  Bitcoin doesn't have a hierarchy where you ask for permission to do stuff.  If someone writes code and then other people run that code, things can happen.  Even if other people disagree.

bitcoin does have a hierarchy.. its called CORE.. all proposals have to go through cores vetting, else get REKT

"Added features" is a bit of an improper way to put it. There are no features added, apart from softforks like Segwit and Taproot of course. Ordinals is a concept that makes use of the already existent features.
use of an exploit added 2017

You don't like paying high fees. None of us does. However, it is the nature of the system such that the demand and supply of the block space defines the transaction fees.
wrong. core changed code to miscount bytes and multiply other bytes to change the natural sat/byte space count of space
the fee bumps of fee estimation is also a new things that caused unnatural fee climbs

Censoring a transaction you don't like is a thing that happens in fiat. Not in here.
rules/code are actually there to keep the network clean(or atleast used to)
but even now not everything should be on the network and even core devs knows some tx are not fit for the network
they even use terms like
'dropped', 'un-relayed', 'purged', 'dust-swept', 'orphaned', 'ignored, 'abandoned', 'pruned', 'stripped', 'evicted'
yep even mining pools are not forced to include all transactions (empty blocks)
so stop pretending junk needs to be included because you think its censorship otherwise..
preventing certain junk is actually about having rules to run a clean network
having bad code that doesnt even validate junk and let it pass is insecure and makes the network worse


** (the junk was pre-warned in 2016...)
secondly. legacy(old) nodes wont benefit from it. also old nodes will have more issues to contend with. such as seeing 'funky' transactions. aswell as still not being able to trust unconfirmed transactions due to RBF and CPFP.
..
fifthly, the 4mb weight. is only going to be filled with 1.8mb tx +witness data. leaving 2.2mb unused. but guess what. people will use it by filling it with arbitrary data. such as writing messages, adverts, even writing a book into the blockchain. what should have been done was allow 2mb base thus needing ~3.6mb weight.. and also adding a rule that 'messages' could not be added. thus keeping the blockchain lean and utilised just for transactions and not novels/adverts/messages. afterall if a communication tool like twitter or SMS can limit how much someone writes.. then so should bitcoin.
we will definetly see people purposefully bloating up the blockchain with passages of mobydick or over nonsense. and core have done nothing to stop it but done everything to allow it.

sixthly, as i slightly hinted before. by not limiting sigops, not preventing arbitrary data being added, core have incentivised bloating by discounting it. but have then added the fee's to reduce bitcoins utility of an actual transaction ledger..
this has to be emphasized over and over.. adding bloat is discounted(free) but sending a real transaction is costly

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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March 18, 2024, 06:18:19 PM
 #20

Unfortunately AND fortunately, Bitcoin is Open Source.  Whether you like it or not, we can do what ever we want with it long as there is a majority consent for it.  This is why some Altcoins pop up every now and then trying to convince every body they are the 'better' version of Bitcoin.  They saw something they did not like into Bitcoin, but the majority did not have a problem with it.  So they took Bitcoin, modified it, launched a new Chain and tried to show case why their 'Bitcoin' is better.

Problem is.  Almost every single such attempt ended up a huge disaster.  Even Bitcoin Cash which is the strongest as of now among the Bitcoin copies does not stand strong enough to convince every body into believing it is better than the O G Bitcoin.

It is alright to think Bitcoin is not the way you like.  It is also alright to try to make others believe that way.  I think we are all in the same situation and over 90 percent of us hate what happens with the Mempool since Ordinals came alive.  I suppose developers are working on that.  I would happily support a Bitcoin that does not let Ordinal spam the Network again.  But we shall see what happens because maybe we are just a minority and the majority does not care yet.

stop trying to promote your crappy subnetwork as being "higher" (subliminally: better)

your stupid subtle wording is not going un noticed.. the subnetworks you adore and want everyone to abandon bitcoin for just doesnt do as promised.. and no patience will fix those problems of the subnetwork
Bitcoin is Layer 1.  Lightning is Layer 2.  How is Layer 2 lower than Layer 1 in your eyes?

You are making us look like a weird cult always extrapolating the words we are using.  DooMAD was obviously referring simply to Layer 2, Layer 3 et cetera.  What are you going to exaggerate next about?  DooMAD calls Layer 2 'higher' than Layer 1 to subliminally wash your brain into thinking Layer 2 is some sort of higher power?

It is not as deep as you make it seem.

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