Ledger - checking up on status, and then disaster

[ContourCool]

I was checking up on things, and doing a long-postponed double-check on my ledger. I tried loading my seed phrase into seedsigner, and putting that wallet (read only) onto Sparrow. No go. There was one small transaction, but not the bulk of it.

So, I'm freaking out. I installed the recovery check app on my ledger. I tried inputting the seed phrase into this recovery check app on the ledger, and it FAILS.

I wrote down the seed phrase very carefully. I really don't think I made a mistake with that.

The ledger still appears to work. Ledger live shows everything it should. The public key that I got from Ledger Live and imported into Sparrow shows everything. What could be going wrong? It's as though...after the first send to the addresses associated with that seed phrase, it switched keys on me, and is now using something else? But that's crazy.

Obviously the next thing to do is to get the sats off the Ledger. I pray that it will actually work.

But I would REALLY love to understand how this could have happened. Any advice would be welcome.

[1714916129]

1714916129

[satscraper]

I was checking up on things, and doing a long-postponed double-check on my ledger. I tried loading my seed phrase into seedsigner, and putting that wallet (read only) onto Sparrow. No go. There was one small transaction, but not the bulk of it.

So, I'm freaking out. I installed the recovery check app on my ledger. I tried inputting the seed phrase into this recovery check app on the ledger, and it FAILS.

I wrote down the seed phrase very carefully. I really don't think I made a mistake with that.

The ledger still appears to work. Ledger live shows everything it should. The public key that I got from Ledger Live and imported into Sparrow shows everything. What could be going wrong? It's as though...after the first send to the addresses associated with that seed phrase, it switched keys on me, and is now using something else? But that's crazy.

Obviously the next thing to do is to get the sats off the Ledger. I pray that it will actually work.

But I would REALLY love to understand how this could have happened. Any advice would be welcome.

Don't be stricken with the panic.

When your create the new wallet by pairing with Sparrow either Ledger itself or Seedsigner (fed by your SEED) you need to point it to a fact that your wallet has the transactions and choose (by using Sparrow's calendar tool) the correct date to start the blockchain scanning by the relevant  node (either yours or public) to find all these trxs.

[Meuserna]

I installed the recovery check app on my ledger. I tried inputting the seed phrase into this recovery check app on the ledger, and it FAILS.

Do you have a passphrase set up?  If you do, you need to open your Ledger hardware wallet using the PIN for the seed only, not the PIN for the seed+passphrase.  I'm pretty sure if you use the second PIN (the one for opening Ledger to a seed+passphrase wallet) the seed check app will fail because the wallet doesn't match the seed words (it matches the seed words + the passphrase).  That seed phrase check app is a good idea, but the way Ledger designed it wasn't well thought through.  It should be able to tell that you're using a passphrase and give you a warning to log out and restart using your seed wallet PIN (PIN 1, in other words).

I'm not saying this is the issue you're experiencing, but it could be.  And if it is...  yay!  Problem solved.

Hopefully it's this or something equally minor.  Good luck!

[ContourCool]

Thanks for the replies.

I do NOT have a passphrase set up, just the seed phrase.

And I did set the date (when using the seed phrase with Sparrow, for it to use as the first transaction date) to be early enough. The seed phrase input into Sparrow DOES show one transaction, but it's an older one. The ones it doesn't show are almost all of them (they're newer ones).

Trying to use Sparrow directly with the Ledger device as opposed to using Ledger Live is a good thing to try, thanks.

But right now I'm thinking that instead of messing around, I should just just try to get the sats off the ledger and onto something else.

I'm still baffled at how this could have happened. The only thing that is consistent with what things look like now is this - I brain-farted and RESET the ledger, did NOT write down the new seed phrase, but continued putting sats on it. But that would be crazy.

Or...something weird happened on the ledger?






 

[dkbit98]

So, I'm freaking out. I installed the recovery check app on my ledger. I tried inputting the seed phrase into this recovery check app on the ledger, and it FAILS.

This probably means that you made some mistake when you wrote seed words.
You should always double check if generated seed words are correct before accepting any coins and making transactions.
Trezor has a nice tool for this purpose called Check Backup:
https://trezor.io/learn/a/test-recovery-seed-on-model-one

One thing you could do is to generate totally new seed phrase with seedsigner or other offline device, than check if you wrote words correctly (erase and import again), and than send all coins from ledger to seedsigner address.

Or...something weird happened on the ledger?

This is your mistake, nothing to do with ledger.

[ContourCool]

I don't know how this works, but somehow the ledger had 2 accounts on it. Different xpubs, when you looked at them. One of them was the same xpub as I got when using the seed phrase that was originally written down. It showed 2 accounts in ledger live.

But unlocking the ledger with the pin, and using ledger live, I was able to spend from BOTH of these accounts/xpubs.

How could this have happened?

[Meuserna]

I don't know how this works, but somehow the ledger had 2 accounts on it. Different xpubs, when you looked at them. One of them was the same xpub as I got when using the seed phrase that was originally written down. It showed 2 accounts in ledger live.

But unlocking the ledger with the pin, and using ledger live, I was able to spend from BOTH of these accounts/xpubs.

How could this have happened?

I wonder if you originally set up an old school Bitcoin wallet, and then you set up a Native Segwit wallet?  If I recall correctly, that's what I did when I set up my first Ledger back in 2019.

If I were you, I'd start over from scratch with a new seed, and move your coins to that wallet.  And if you own more than maybe a thousand dollars worth of Bitcoin (or if you plan to), I'd switch to a Trezor or a Blockstream Jade.  I don't trust Ledger anymore, so I started over with a new seed that was never used on Ledger hardware.

If you do start over with a new wallet, write down your seed words on paper.  Make a metal backup in case of fire, flood, moisture, etc.  But also, open a note somewhere on your computer or phone and write down info about how you set up your new wallet.  Write down as many details as you can.  Write down everything except the seed words (never enter seed words on a computer or phone.  Only enter them in your hardware wallet).  I like keeping this info in a locked note on my Mac, but even if the note somehow gets hacked, my keys aren't in that note so my coins are safe.

[ContourCool]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, that's the plan for sure.

But it's troubling to me that something I believed - 1 ledger wallet with pin is equal to 1 private key - does not seem to actually be the case. And also that the seed phrase that I thought represented that private key only was ONE of the the 2 private keys on the ledger wallet.

When you say old school Bitcoin wallet - what do you mean specifically?

[Meuserna]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, that's the plan for sure.

But it's troubling to me that something I believed - 1 ledger wallet with pin is equal to 1 private key - does not seem to actually be the case. And also that the seed phrase that I thought represented that private key only was ONE of the the 2 private keys on the ledger wallet.

Your seed phrase generates millions of private keys.  Each address in your wallet has a unique private key.  And each wallet type (Segwit, Native Segwit, Taproot) generates an entirely different list of millions of addresses and private keys.

With Ledger hardware, your main PIN unlocks the device using your seed phrase.  You can also set up a second PIN to unlock the device using your seed phrase plus a passphrase (please don't unless you fully understand what a passphrase is and how to use one safely.  A passphrase is not a password).

Using your seed phrase, you can create different wallet types.

If all of this seems confusing, that's because it is.  Most wallet apps do a very poor job of explaining all of this, especially to newcomers, and they try to be too clever, which makes it hard for newcomers to understand what the app is actually doing.  And most hardware wallets make matters worse for the same reasons, which piles on more confusion to the confusion.

When you say old school Bitcoin wallet - what do you mean specifically?

I probably shouldn't have said "old school" since there have been various wallet types.  I meant Segwit vs Native Segwit (or did Ledger use Wrapped Segwit before adding Native Segwit?  I don't remember).

Anyway...  you might have a Segwit wallet and a Native Segwit wallet, depending on how you originally set things up in Ledger Live.

[Pmalek]

@ContourCool

You have multiple bitcoin accounts at different derivation paths. Maybe you also have bitcoin on different address types, depending on when you first set up your Ledger, created the first bitcoin account, and generated an address. I am knowingly using the term "bitcoin account" (which is wrong) because that's what Ledger calls them.

If you connect your Ledger to Electrum, Sparrow, or another compatible client, you have to point the software to the correct derivation path. I guess that you only pointed it to one of the paths leading to only one bitcoin account you used in the past. You need to do that for each and every one if you created multiple ones. It looks to me like you did.

When you open Ledger Live and go to the Accounts tab on the left, how many different bitcoin accounts do you see? Unless you changed their names, they should be called Bitcoin, Bitcoin 2... You can click on each of those, to see their individual transaction histories. When you open an account, click on the settings icon (the gear icon on the top right). A new window will open where you can see basic information about that account. It will also show your derivation path. That's the path you need to point your software wallet to. Each account will have a slightly different path.

Since you are not actually sure what you did in the past, you might have other bitcoin accounts that are not currently displayed in Ledger Live. If I was you, I would delete my bitcoin accounts from Ledger Live's portfolio and let the software re-scan everything. It will then go step by step and re-add all accounts you created in the past. Who knows, maybe you missed some. 

I meant Segwit vs Native Segwit (or did Ledger use Wrapped Segwit before adding Native Segwit?  I don't remember).

Yes, Ledger used all three address types in Ledger Live.

[Cricktor]

So, I'm freaking out. I installed the recovery check app on my ledger. I tried inputting the seed phrase into this recovery check app on the ledger, and it FAILS.

I wrote down the seed phrase very carefully. I really don't think I made a mistake with that.

Assuming you didn't make an error during verification of your mnemonic recovery words with the Ledger recovery check app: if the check fails, your written recovery words do not represent the entropy secret of your Ledger Nano wallet.

The entry slots on the Ledger recovery paper sheets are already numbered, so by following the numbers carefully a user shouldn't really mess this up. Some users think it's a great idea to be "smart" and write down the words in some other order, reversed or left-right, left-right, ... instead of top-down as the recovery sheet's numbers demand. I'll leave it to you how "smart" this actually is...

So far I didn't ever read somewhere that the Ledger recovery check app failed with a false negative. But I'm no Ledger fan, either.


If you can't recover why your mnemonic recovery words don't restore your current Nano wallet, I would suggest to move all your coins into a new hardware wallet. I am no fan of closed-source firmware Ledger Nano crap, period! I highly recommend to buy another decent hardware wallet, create therein a new wallet and transfer all your coins from Ledger Nano to this new device. If you want to stick to Ledger, that's your decission and not my cup of tea.

[ContourCool]

FYI - I just got a scammer DMing me, telling me to enter whatever words I know of the seed phrase. The user is dj6230. Hope nobody falls for this kind of stuff.

Just thought I'd let people know. Is there a better way to report this?

Here's what the person says:

About your problem, i have a tool that can check your seed and compares words with close pair list and words that are not placed in a correct order.
It's easy to use, just open that webpage from your desktop and paste your seed in the field, now one by one replace every word with a question mark: "?"

[Pmalek]

FYI - I just got a scammer DMing me, telling me to enter whatever words I know of the seed phrase. The user is dj6230. Hope nobody falls for this kind of stuff.

He is a known scammer as you can see by looking at his trust rating. Adding new negative feedback to his profile isn't going to make much of a difference.

Just thought I'd let people know. Is there a better way to report this?

Scams aren't moderated on Bitcointalk by the admins. So, reporting it won't do much. And as I said above, he already has several negative ratings. Scammers like him always prey on possible victims. Never share any sensitive information via PMs. You can report the PM to the mods if you want, but nothing will happen. Maybe, try writing unsolicited messages + phishing, hoping that will do the trick. The admins will then see the content of the PM he sent you. The report button is below the PM you received. 

I asked you several questions in my previous post trying to help, did you look at them?

[ContourCool]

Oh yes thanks - I forgot to come back here and report! I was kind of traumatized by the whole thing so I just got it to a state where I believe it's good now (OFF the Ledger setup) but I was on pins and needles and am recovering.

So basically Ledger Live DID create 2 accounts for every 1 hardware wallet. I never did understand what was going on, I saw them there and just though...oh, another really complicated thing I should investigate. I really should have tried to understand better what was going on. One says native segwit, one says custom.

But...it's also true the the recovery check tool on the ledger hardware device DID NOT WORK. That was what truly freaked me out. But using the actual hardware with the pin DID work, to move sats.

Restoring the seed phrase via seed signer and then looking for transactions (on Sparrow) ALSO did not work. When I say "did not work", it did not show any of my transactions. It's possible that I got something wrong (derivation path, script type).

Anyway, my takeaway now is to always only use something like SeedSigner.

Why would Ledger Live make such an insane thing - 2 accounts for every hardware wallet?

[Pmalek]

So basically Ledger Live DID create 2 accounts for every 1 hardware wallet.

Ledger Live doesn't create an x amount of accounts because it's bored. It reacts to your inputs. There are separate accounts for each script type, but it's you who decided to use them and generate addresses. You just don't remember what you did.

One says native segwit, one says custom.

Not sure what the "custom" one is supposed to be, but it can either be legacy or nested segwit.

Restoring the seed phrase via seed signer and then looking for transactions (on Sparrow) ALSO did not work. When I say "did not work", it did not show any of my transactions. It's possible that I got something wrong (derivation path, script type).

You have to point the wallet to scan a particular derivation path, especially if the default for wallet 1 is different from the one of wallet 2.

Anyway, my takeaway now is to always only use something like SeedSigner.

Why would Ledger Live make such an insane thing - 2 accounts for every hardware wallet?

There are ways that you can mess up with your Seedsigner. Read the beginner manuals, check the docs on the website, look at YouTube videos, and ask questions before doing something you are not sure about.