What's the best way to create a super/meta/mother/master mnemonic seed?

[LoyceV]

I'm looking for a safe and convenient solution precisely

That would be the holy grail of self-custody. I've never been able to find it, and until this day I'm not completely comfortable with the balance between keeping my funds secure, and making sure nobody else gains access. I am content with my current setup, but it's not perfect. I've never seen a perfect solution.

a sheet of paper can be too easily burnt, torn, erased, lost, eaten...

Let's dissect this:

• burn: yes. Although a fire proof safe can help a lot.
• torn: yes. But not accidentally.
• erased: very unlikely. I've never seen toner disappear during my life, and I expect it to still be readable after centuries.
• lost: yes. I think this is the biggest risk, since someone else can gain access.
• eaten: by bugs you mean? Only if wet, so laminate it.

even with a back-up hidden in another place it's not a convenient solution for me, since I can't go to this place whenever I want, especially within few hours when I need to add a new seed.

You could add more seed phrases than you're using, so when you need a new one, all you need is to get the next available one from your local storage, and it's already in your far-away-backup. It takes some planning.

6. Save the backups A, A, B, B in 4 separate locations.

Why not 2-of-3, so you only need locations A, B and C? With this setup, 2 locations are always enough to restore your funds. With your 4 locations, having only 2 remaining locations gives a 50% chance of losing access to your funds.

I don't like multisig. It's not intuitive, I'd always fear I'd mess up, and it increases transaction fees.

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[apogio]

Why not 2-of-3, so you only need locations A, B and C? With this setup, 2 locations are always enough to restore your funds. With your 4 locations, having only 2 remaining locations gives a 50% chance of losing access to your funds.

Well... Look, I understand that a 2-of-3 seems better and many people advise in favour of it.

However, I don't like it because I haven't found a way to properly backup the xpubs.

For those who read this, but don't know how multisig works, you basically need all the xpubs of all the cosigners to describe the wallet, but you need part of them to sign the transaction.

So:

2-of-3 : A, B, C - You need all the xpubs and 2 of the seed phrases

2-of-2: A, A, B, B: You need all the xpubs and the 2 seed phrases.

Let's back these up.

In the 2-of-2 you need 4 backups for the seed phrases but you don't need to backup the xpubs because they can be derived from the seeds.

In the 2-of-3 you need one backup of each seed phrase and one backup of each xpub.
You could do it like this:

Location 1: Seed A, xpub B
Location 2: Seed B, xpub C
Location 3: Seed C, xpub A

You have the same redundancy, because losing one location will allow you to have the necessary pieces to unlock the wallet (all the xpubs and the 2 seeds)

But, I haven't found a good way to backup the xpubs. They are huge sentences of random characters, so one simple mistake can lead to money loss.

This is why I avoid 2-of-3.

I don't like multisig. It's not intuitive, I'd always fear I'd mess up, and it increases transaction fees.

I understand. So, without giving away your setup, what do you think is a better way to do your self-custody ?

[LoyceV]

I understand that a 2-of-3 seems better and many people advise in favour of it.
However, I don't like it because I haven't found a way to properly backup the xpubs.

Print it?

In the 2-of-3 you need one backup of each seed phrase and one backup of each xpub.
You could do it like this:

Location 1: Seed A, xpub B
Location 2: Seed B, xpub C
Location 3: Seed C, xpub A

Or store all xpubs on each location. The drawback is that "a thief" would know your address and balance, but you add redundancy in case you can't read all characters on the paper.

I haven't found a good way to backup the xpubs. They are huge sentences of random characters, so one simple mistake can lead to money loss.

I've typed some private keys (for offline Fork recovery), and in my experience my typing is more accurate than my reading. So now I print everything in a large font, which makes it easier to distinguish between similar characters. If you make a mistake, just keep trying until you get it right.

without giving away your setup, what do you think is a better way to do your self-custody ?

I like BIP38 encryption.

[apogio]

I understand that a 2-of-3 seems better and many people advise in favour of it.
However, I don't like it because I haven't found a way to properly backup the xpubs.

Print it?

In the 2-of-3 you need one backup of each seed phrase and one backup of each xpub.
You could do it like this:

Location 1: Seed A, xpub B
Location 2: Seed B, xpub C
Location 3: Seed C, xpub A

Or store all xpubs on each location. The drawback is that "a thief" would know your address and balance, but you add redundancy in case you can't read all characters on the paper.

I haven't found a good way to backup the xpubs. They are huge sentences of random characters, so one simple mistake can lead to money loss.

I've typed some private keys (for offline Fork recovery), and in my experience my typing is more accurate than my reading. So now I print everything in a large font, which makes it easier to distinguish between similar characters. If you make a mistake, just keep trying until you get it right.

Okay, so it sounds are comfortable with printing the xpubs. Unfortunately I am not.

I am also reluctant to store all the xpubs in the same place. I am not extra-paranoid, I just don't want to expose my addresses to the attacker for privacy reasons. Yeah, I know, no big deal, because I will find out that one of my backups was compromised in one of my regular health checks, but still, I want to avoid this.

I like BIP38 encryption.

This sounds interesting, gonna check it now. I was aware of it, but I never dived into it.

[LoyceV]

Okay, so it sounds are comfortable with printing the xpubs.

This is all theoretical: I'd be comfortable printing it, but I wouldn't be comfortable using multisig.

I just don't want to expose my addresses to the attacker
~
This sounds interesting, gonna check it now. I was aware of it, but I never dived into it.

You'll print this:
6PYS1nzuGgFB4WunA9xzHRWxd5xWhLBFxpgTGEQ2z7fggB767rLnKSYHQK (I created this one with a random private key as password, so there's absolutely no way this can ever be recovered (but the 6P-key is valid)).
An attacker has no idea what's in it. But for your own convenience, adding the address makes funding a lot easier. As always, it's a balancing act between security and convenience.

Or print a whole page filled with lines like this, and only one that works with your password. The attacker will have no idea which one is the real one, and if you forget, you can spend half an hour trying your password on all of them. I consider half an hour of typing a small price to pay for peace of mind.

[apogio]

You'll print this:
6PYS1nzuGgFB4WunA9xzHRWxd5xWhLBFxpgTGEQ2z7fggB767rLnKSYHQK (I created this one with a random private key as password, so there's absolutely no way this can ever be recovered (but the 6P-key is valid)).
An attacker has no idea what's in it. But for your own convenience, adding the address makes funding a lot easier. As always, it's a balancing act between security and convenience.

Or print a whole page filled with lines like this, and only one that works with your password. The attacker will have no idea which one is the real one, and if you forget, you can spend half an hour trying your password on all of them. I consider half an hour of typing a small price to pay for peace of mind.

Looks promising, I need to study it a bit more. Does it work only with encrypting single private keys? Or does it also work with seeds (HD wallets)?

[LoyceV]

Does it work only with encrypting single private keys?

Yes. And by default it works for Legacy addresses only.

Or does it also work with seeds (HD wallets)?

Using BIP-38 encryption to store mnemonic seed phrase.

[Danydee]

~ ~

Why don't use a PRNG and use a 12 words mnemonic phrase as the seed for generation ?

You can F.E. just add at the generation to the seed a nonce for each wallet ...    ( + 0001 , 00010 ... )

but you should learn your lessons about the PRNG very hard to not stay depending on the available provided tool !  

[Saint-loup]

So your biggest fears are

• Backup being destroyed by some unexpected event (fire, flood etc).
• Locking yourself out because you have lost / forgotten the backup of the wallet (or a piece of the backup).

Well in this occasion you are clearly looking for a multisig wallet.
The easiest way to go about it is:
[...]

That's an interesting solution, thank you for detailing it here but unfortunately, neither multisig wallets nor SLIP39(Mnemonic Shamir's Secret Shared) seeds resolve my main issue "For obvious privacy concerns, I would like to be able to use several wallets based on different seeds."  I should have said multiple wallets and multiple seeds.

a sheet of paper can be too easily burnt, torn, erased, lost, eaten...

Let's dissect this:

• burn: yes. Although a fire proof safe can help a lot.
• torn: yes. But not accidentally.
• erased: very unlikely. I've never seen toner disappear during my life, and I expect it to still be readable after centuries.
• lost: yes. I think this is the biggest risk, since someone else can gain access.
• eaten: by bugs you mean? Only if wet, so laminate it.

You should have a better ink than mine. Yes bugs can eat paper, but mice too. I don't have mice at home, but if one day I get some it could be too late for my paper once I discover it.

even with a back-up hidden in another place it's not a convenient solution for me, since I can't go to this place whenever I want, especially within few hours when I need to add a new seed.

You could add more seed phrases than you're using, so when you need a new one, all you need is to get the next available one from your local storage, and it's already in your far-away-backup. It takes some planning.

It's a good idea, maybe I should think about it. For me it doesn't look useful and to be the most safe practice to generate seeds long time before using them but it could be the most convenient way to solve my problem actually.

[LoyceV]

You should have a better ink than mine.

Toner. I like toner a lot better.

Yes bugs can eat paper, but mice too. I don't have mice at home, but if one day I get some it could be too late for my paper once I discover it.

I have books that I've owned since childhood. They're fine. If I'd place a piece of paper between them, the mice would have to eat so many books that I'd have to notice. Or use a metal container, or a safe.

[apogio]

I have books that I've owned since childhood. They're fine. If I'd place a piece of paper between them, the mice would have to eat so many books that I'd have to notice. Or use a metal container, or a safe.

It can't happen. There is no way on earth, especially considering that we should check our backups every now and then. Bugs and mice will never eat a backup seed phrase.

BTW: I just noticed the "professional shitposter"