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Author Topic: Private miners, a ticket to getting faster transaction confirmations  (Read 386 times)
stompix
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March 26, 2024, 05:52:42 PM
 #21

Rumors say that North Korea already has a "private miner" (secret pool) occasionally laundering tainted BTC. Technically it's a clever way to exploit the protocol (even better than mixing), legal-wise it would get you in a lot of trouble.

If you would have said mixer then it would have been plausible, but a pool can't launder bitcoins!
As long as it's a valid tx every pool will add it to the chain, no block containing a non valid tx will be accepted by the nodes, mining pools can't seize your funds they would just be able to refuse your tx but if somebody has managed to tag those coins and tell all pools not to mien them then no exchange would accept them anyhow!

Having their own private mixer to do this, yeah possible, although all the traces point to them using the same mixers as everyone!
Having their own mining pool to generate revenue, using subsidized electricity they can't use for anything else to generate bitcoins and turn those into much-needed foreign currency definitely, I would be surprised if they wouldn't have already thought and set that up.
But having a pool to clean coins, no, it makes no sense!

By exploiting the protocol I meant generating a new coinbase transaction with new coins that have zero traces/history. I wasn't talking about mixing.

How do you launder old "dirty" bitcoins by mining coinbase fresh ones?
The moment you stack them up you taint both of them!

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cryptosize
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March 26, 2024, 06:31:10 PM
 #22

Rumors say that North Korea already has a "private miner" (secret pool) occasionally laundering tainted BTC. Technically it's a clever way to exploit the protocol (even better than mixing), legal-wise it would get you in a lot of trouble.

If you would have said mixer then it would have been plausible, but a pool can't launder bitcoins!
As long as it's a valid tx every pool will add it to the chain, no block containing a non valid tx will be accepted by the nodes, mining pools can't seize your funds they would just be able to refuse your tx but if somebody has managed to tag those coins and tell all pools not to mien them then no exchange would accept them anyhow!

Having their own private mixer to do this, yeah possible, although all the traces point to them using the same mixers as everyone!
Having their own mining pool to generate revenue, using subsidized electricity they can't use for anything else to generate bitcoins and turn those into much-needed foreign currency definitely, I would be surprised if they wouldn't have already thought and set that up.
But having a pool to clean coins, no, it makes no sense!

By exploiting the protocol I meant generating a new coinbase transaction with new coins that have zero traces/history. I wasn't talking about mixing.

How do you launder old "dirty" bitcoins by mining coinbase fresh ones?
The moment you stack them up you taint both of them!
When a new block is produced, it generates new coins containing the following:

1) Block subsidy (currently 6.25 BTC)
2) Fees (variable amount)

So let's say that you have 30 "dirty" BTC... you can send 1 BTC and pay 29 BTC as "fees" (fat finger "mistake").

Those fees will be included in the coinbase transaction and 29 "clean" BTC -with no previous history/traces- will be produced.

Protocol-wise nothing wrong has been done (same with Ordinals, even though some people don't like it and consider it an exploit), but if someone can cooperate beforehand with a certain pool, then let's say he can get 27 BTC back and pay 2 BTC to the pool for "cleaning" the coins and their naughty history (could be stolen from an exchange, a Ponzi scheme or whatever).
cryptosize
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March 26, 2024, 06:40:26 PM
 #23

Or maybe those who mine on Ocean can afford to be idealistic.
I don't believe in "idealism" (sounds like communism/socialism), I believe that maximum profit has to be generated in capitalism. Miners don't care if dick pics can generate them more profit via increased BTC fees, they'll let it slide.

I also don't believe in fat finger "mistakes" or "charity" or "philanthropism" or however you wanna call it.
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March 26, 2024, 08:30:39 PM
 #24

I know the protocol doesn't have feelings, but governments do...
Taint is nonsense; a made-up term by blockchain analysis. I'm pretty sure that given enough incentive, they will start treating certain coinbase rewards as tainted as well. "North-Korea mined this block, so tainted", or "Miner included this bad transaction and earned fees from that, so tainted". Mining is one big mixing in the end.

Or maybe those who mine on Ocean can afford to be idealistic.
This is just plain dumb, even if you're an "idealist". Whether they use their computational power to mine Ordinals or not, it does absolutely no harm on Ordinals. They will sooner or later get confirmation. The only thing they will have accomplished is to leave money be taken by the other pools.

This is not how I feel. It's just how Bitcoin works. They go against the game theory.

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pooya87
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March 27, 2024, 04:26:11 AM
 #25

So let's say that you have 30 "dirty" BTC... you can send 1 BTC and pay 29 BTC as "fees" (fat finger "mistake").

Those fees will be included in the coinbase transaction and 29 "clean" BTC -with no previous history/traces- will be produced.
Although there is no actual transaction sending the 29BTC to the coinbase transaction but there is a clear and direct link between the 29BTC fee and the outputs of the coinbase tx and also wherever they would go in the future. After all that high paying tx was included in the same block hence the link.
There would also be nothing "clean" about the coinbase outputs.

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cryptosize
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March 27, 2024, 08:58:13 AM
 #26

So let's say that you have 30 "dirty" BTC... you can send 1 BTC and pay 29 BTC as "fees" (fat finger "mistake").

Those fees will be included in the coinbase transaction and 29 "clean" BTC -with no previous history/traces- will be produced.
Although there is no actual transaction sending the 29BTC to the coinbase transaction but there is a clear and direct link between the 29BTC fee and the outputs of the coinbase tx and also wherever they would go in the future. After all that high paying tx was included in the same block hence the link.
There would also be nothing "clean" about the coinbase outputs.
Why not?

The perpetrator can get his money back in multiple UTXOs and multiple wallets to obfuscate the origins even more...

It doesn't have to be a single UTXO.
stompix
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March 27, 2024, 02:12:35 PM
 #27

When a new block is produced, it generates new coins containing the following:

1) Block subsidy (currently 6.25 BTC)
2) Fees (variable amount)

So let's say that you have 30 "dirty" BTC... you can send 1 BTC and pay 29 BTC as "fees" (fat finger "mistake").
Those fees will be included in the coinbase transaction and 29 "clean" BTC -with no previous history/traces- will be produced.

And yeah, the ones that are looking at those addresses are dumb as fuck and they can't see that all the tx are getting confirmed by an unknown pool and all the tx have the fat fingers syndrome. Common, just how dumb do you think people are?

You pay a 2 BTC tx fee from an address that is labeled as stolen funds to an anonymous miner and of course, everyone with a working brain cell would label those funds as stolen, you didn't break a thing in the history, and you didn't obfuscate a thing, you just left far more traces and you compromised clear rewards coins also!
Common this is cops and robbers material for a 5yo!
 

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cryptosize
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March 27, 2024, 10:36:31 PM
 #28

When a new block is produced, it generates new coins containing the following:

1) Block subsidy (currently 6.25 BTC)
2) Fees (variable amount)

So let's say that you have 30 "dirty" BTC... you can send 1 BTC and pay 29 BTC as "fees" (fat finger "mistake").
Those fees will be included in the coinbase transaction and 29 "clean" BTC -with no previous history/traces- will be produced.

And yeah, the ones that are looking at those addresses are dumb as fuck and they can't see that all the tx are getting confirmed by an unknown pool and all the tx have the fat fingers syndrome. Common, just how dumb do you think people are?

You pay a 2 BTC tx fee from an address that is labeled as stolen funds to an anonymous miner and of course, everyone with a working brain cell would label those funds as stolen, you didn't break a thing in the history, and you didn't obfuscate a thing, you just left far more traces and you compromised clear rewards coins also!
Common this is cops and robbers material for a 5yo!
You better explain these cases and offer a plausible explanation:

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/11/23/bitcoin-sender-struck-with-31m-transaction-fee-largest-in-history/
https://www.theblock.co/post/265387/antpool-agrees-to-refund-record-3-million-bitcoin-transaction-fee
https://www.binance.com/en/feed/post/750985839513
https://news.bitcoin.com/mining-pool-btc-com-80-btc-fee-refund/

Strangely enough, they always seem to offer a refund... so sweet, right? I don't believe in charity though, nor fat finger mistakes (we all know how anxious someone can become when they have to send serious amounts of money via the BTC network, you double/triple-check the fees, the recipient address, everything).

And I don't see they would compromise clear rewards.

The US government owns Silk Road coins... so according to your logic, they could use these coins to overpay fees and declare miners "illegal". How come they haven't done it yet?
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March 27, 2024, 11:41:50 PM
Merited by pooya87 (2)
 #29

There would also be nothing "clean" about the coinbase outputs.
Why not?

Because, if you believe in the concept of "tainted coins", then that coinbase reward is "tainted" by the "tainted coins" used for the fee. It's as just as easy to trace as any other transaction that could have used those coins.

The perpetrator can get his money back in multiple UTXOs and multiple wallets to obfuscate the origins even more...

It doesn't have to be a single UTXO.

You don't need a coinbase reward to do that.  If obfuscation through the use of "multiple UTXOs and multiple wallets" will address the problem, then there's no need to bother with this mining scheme you're imagining.
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March 28, 2024, 12:42:27 AM
 #30

Because, if you believe in the concept of "tainted coins", then that coinbase reward is "tainted" by the "tainted coins" used for the fee. It's as just as easy to trace as any other transaction that could have used those coins.
I don't believe in anything, governments do. Read the previous posts.

If obfuscation through the use of "multiple UTXOs and multiple wallets" will address the problem, then there's no need to bother with this mining scheme you're imagining.
A pool has to pay thousands of miners daily. Adding 20-30 more outputs doesn't seem that big of a deal...

What should a pool do if they receive fees from "tainted" coins? Cease operations immediately? Reject the transaction and let another pool mine it?

Who are you going to trace exactly if you distribute the fees proportionally according to the hashrate submitted by miners?
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March 28, 2024, 02:42:43 AM
Merited by cryptosize (1)
 #31

If these private miners are directly mining transactions instead of using the getblocktemplate which arranges them by fee paid, then you are going screw with the mempool.

The mempool is the only mechanism we have to mine transactions fairly. Here the only incentive is fees paid. If we eliminate it, then any mining sector can implement any incentive they want, like "taint", "oligarchs first", "include Ordinals", "mine all of my own transactions", "deplatform exchange X" and this will make transaction processing no longer decentralized.

So apart from being impractical by exhausting AntMiner's entire supply of miners, there is this too.

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March 29, 2024, 12:08:10 AM
Last edit: March 29, 2024, 12:30:35 AM by DannyHamilton
 #32

Because, if you believe in the concept of "tainted coins", then that coinbase reward is "tainted" by the "tainted coins" used for the fee. It's as just as easy to trace as any other transaction that could have used those coins.
I don't believe in anything, governments do. Read the previous posts.

Sorry, I'll rephrase to avoid confusion:

Because if someone already believes in the concept of "tainted coins", then that coinbase reward is "tainted" by the "tainted coins" used for the fee. It's as just as easy to trace as any other transaction that could have used those coins.

What should a pool do if they receive fees from "tainted" coins? Cease operations immediately? Reject the transaction and let another pool mine it?

That depends on what the pool believes about the concept of "tainted coins".  If a pool believes it's possible for coins to be "tainted", and that pool has reason to want to avoid awarding tainted coins to their participants then their only option would be to "Reject the transaction and let another pool mine it". Anything else would subject them to whatever consequences they are concerned about.

Who are you going to trace exactly if you distribute the fees proportionally according to the hashrate submitted by miners?

If someone believes in the concept of "tainted coins", then (for them) EVERY UTXO created from that block reward is "tainted" (proportionally according to how the reward is distributed). There's nothing magical about coinbase transactions, the "taint" affects coinbase transactions in exactly the same way as it affects any other transaction.



The mempool is the only mechanism we have to mine transactions fairly.

There is nothing about "the mempool" providing any mechanism for "fairness". Each node maintains their own mempool however they want. The mempool is just a list of unconfirmed transaction that the node has not yet forgotten about. That's it. Nothing more.

Here the only incentive is fees paid.

That's the only incentive built into the protocol, but there is nothing about the bitcoin protocol that prevents any solo miner or mining pool from adding any other incentives that they want to add to their own mining. Some mining pools have already adjusted their transaction selection process, allowing users to "accelerate" transactions by simply indicating a desire to have their transaction included instead of a higher-paying transaction.

If we eliminate it, then any mining sector can implement any incentive they want, like "taint", "oligarchs first", "include Ordinals", "mine all of my own transactions", "deplatform exchange X"

All of those are already possible.  A solo miner or mining pool doesn't need anyone else to change anything else about the bitcoin software to do any of those things. They can just modify their own software as they like.

and this will make transaction processing no longer decentralized.

The ability to make such modifications exists BECAUSE of decentralization. If Bitcoin were mining were centralized, then the entity in control could make any (or none) of these decisions, and then FORCE everyone else to abide by them.  BECAUSE it is decentralized, neither you, me, or anyone else can decide what criteria a miner gets to use when choosing transactions.
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