In a discussion, you discuss!

[JiiBs]

Discussion

For the purpose of clarity, this thread is created due to the observed trends in some users within my category. Haven’t really spot this behavior within ranked users but, it seems common for beginners and I don’t seem to understand how it is possible or why (take that for a claim).

What might that be?
Some users don’t understand what is feedback system in a discussion. It’s an exchange of ideas and not a sole opinionated sort of sending out a message. This by some means is a disregard of what everyone else’s opinion on a topic especially when your the starter of the topic. It gets worst when you are the starter of that topic, it doesn’t show interest and in most cases, you live people just rambling and not knowing if you get it or not. Of course other users might take there interest but, as a starter of a topic, you should to some extent show interest in that topic, follow it up to some extent before you let loose.
I get it that some topics number into 100 of pages and one can’t or wouldn’t possibly follow through on all the responses that might amass in the topic but, at the beginning phase or before it gets a lot of attention such that it becomes overwhelming for you being the starter, a feedback system requires that your there in the discussions on going in the topic.

Definition of the term (Theme)
Discussion: The term refers to people being one or two or more having to talk(write) about a topic, exchange ideas about it in order to reach a solution on it. Look up in Cambridge Dictionary.

The key words to note here are: people, talking(writing), exchange, idea and solution.
Sums up to mean: people exchanging ideas for solution.

The problem:
This is BitcoinTalkForum and from the way I know it now as much as other communities on the web, it’s a discussion platform and where you come for exchange of ideas. Even while teaching, you expect questions and when not asked, you ask questions or seek understanding of a course to get diverse opinions. That’s how a discussion grows. People might be different, being an introvert and extrovert but, not on the web. It doesn’t apply in an online discussion where your anonymous and have got just you and whatever device your accessing the web with to contend with.

Attributes that could be assumed to spawn this behavior:
I. Hidden agenda,
II. Been forced to write and so you write even without interest in what your proposing,
III. You completely agree to every concept being said even with several inter and intra contradictions.

Would expect more from users on the forum

The expected:
1. It’s highly relevant that you respond to comments in your topic as a starter.
2. It’s more than unlikely that you agree to every argument because you can’t. Some wouldn’t seat well and others will.
3. The energy you give by virtue of response shows interest and spawns discussion.
4. It promotes more thinking when you discuss and brings up constructive argument.
5. The content is better developed and ideas promoted in this nature.

what more can you add

I have been in few boards of the forum and indeed spot some users with great attributes to discussing. Am speaking of users like: ABCbits, LoyceV, JayJuanGee, BlackHatcoiner, apogio, Pooya87, Lovesmayfamilis, upgrade00, hugeblack, philipma1957 and a few others too numerous to mention but, shout out to you guys that promote a healthy and make great conversationists in the forum. Your efforts aren’t unnoticed and you sure make good models.

These guys almost revisits all there topics and comments even to say the least. Offer more insights if need be and answer questions on them. Learning from these guys would definitely aid in self development and resilience when it comes to participation on the forum.

Note: This is just personal observation based on interaction and the places I habit on the forum. Am sure there are a great lot of other conversationists here but, from the few I’ve got to interact with or take into account I have mentioned and not all of them too for sure.

In conclusion:
Perhaps there might not be a final solution to every discussion but, your not in a discussion if all you do is create a topic or just drop a comment and your off. While in a discussion, you should discuss!

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[Dunamisx]

Some users don’t understand what is feedback system in a discussion. It’s an exchange of ideas and not a sole opinionated sort of sending out a message.

we have a standard here and which is quality post, if you're making a reply on someone else thread and its off topic, if the moderator see such, it will be deleted, members as well can report such post to the moderators for proper action, it a user creates a thread and its off topic content, it may be deleted as well or moved to off topic section, now this is what is expected concerning making a quality post or replies which i expect everyone to have gone through right from the time of joining this forum.

Posting etiquettes
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5184741.msg52459430#msg52459430

Topic title style guide by Theymos
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102944.msg1128795#msg1128795

[lovesmayfamilis]

Excellent topic, and specifically in the section for beginners. But you know, OP, a lot of newbies aren't real newbies. There was a time when the creator of a topic had greater prospects of receiving merit than all the subsequent answers to the topic. This was used by many accounts that managed to create several alternative accounts for themselves. And although the boom has already passed, threads with statements like “Hello, I’m new; tell me everything about the forum” happen every day.
You are right that any topic should have a user response and be naturally supported by those who open it. But in fact, sometimes we see a hundred pages of rephrased answers that have the same meaning.
What can I recommend to anyone who wants to know, ask, or, on the contrary, teach something? Do not leave your topics unattended; monitor them, and if you receive sufficient information, show the ability to close the topics yourself so as not to condone further spam.

[JiiBs]

Some users don’t understand what is feedback system in a discussion. It’s an exchange of ideas and not a sole opinionated sort of sending out a message.

we have a standard here and which is quality post, if you're making a reply on someone else thread and its off topic, if the moderator see such, it will be deleted, members as well can report such post to the moderators for proper action, it a user creates a thread and its off topic content, it may be deleted as well or moved to off topic section, now this is what is expected concerning making a quality post or replies which i expect everyone to have gone through right from the time of joining this forum.

Definitely there have got to be standards for this forum or any other forums to function properly else, all you can find is garbage and rubbish that belongs no where else than in the trash bag but, we aren’t focused on off-topic responses now are we? Besides, off-topic replies doesn’t really constitute a second response in a thread by same user, you could always have a second, third, fourth and more responses yet, you remain on point or topic.

Maybe your postulating that the fear of off-topic responses drives users to not make a second, third or fourth comment on a thread but even then, it could have prevented your ever commenting in the first place.

While the thread might be addressing how some users discuss, it’s more centered on the initiator of a topic with some relativism to comments from other users.
Let’s mot forget, reading and writing is how we communicate here and sometimes, the way a sentence is read could communicate a different idea from what the writer is projecting. These could be reasons for further clarification in a second, third and fourth comment. This applies to both inter and intra comments.

What can I recommend to anyone who wants to know, ask, or, on the contrary, teach something? Do not leave your topics unattended; monitor them, and if you receive sufficient information, show the ability to close the topics yourself so as not to condone further spam.

That’s just how curiosity works, when you want to know, you would be out for those informations, when your out to teach, of course you would find responses that stray or brings to mind new ideas to build on and you do well to tend to that. It all counts for the feedback system for a healthy discussion.

[apogio]

OP, thank you for the kind words. In fact, I think we all must try to discuss productively in this forum. The forum is for us. It's our place! And as such, we should focus on improving it.

But in fact, sometimes we see a hundred pages of rephrased answers that have the same meaning.

I have also spotted occasions like this... It's not very odd though. People (sometimes me included), tend to read the OP and then construct an answer without reading the previously mentioned ones.

[hugeblack]

I think the solution to this problem is to post in boards with a lower percentage of spam, such as the technical or serious boards, and to use a self-moderated topic.
If you find a member who is spamming or all of his participation is outside the text or without the intention of discussions, then report him to the campaign manager. If the campaign manager does not remove him, create a topic here^[1] and will given a negative trust according to the situation.

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=129.0

[lovesmayfamilis]

I have also spotted occasions like this... It's not very odd though. People (sometimes me included), tend to read the OP and then construct an answer without reading the previously mentioned ones.

I don’t think you are doing the same, at least not repeating what was said before you in the post above. But I’m talking about the fact that one person at the beginning of the topic asks a simple question, someone answers him, and this is essentially enough, but then a series of the same thoughts follows, only in different words. What is this for? It is clear to everyone that the questioner received an answer. Not understanding it means being completely stupid. But the topic goes on for many pages, increasing the amount of spam.
I am always uncomfortable answering this way, knowing that I will look like someone who has not read the above. Such answers are either egoistic, which expresses itself in the fact that a person thinks that his answer is cooler. Or simply fulfilling a quota (and this is most often), but here the person answering makes himself look ridiculous. I emphasize that the question is very simple to answer. But in more complex cases, on the other hand, different opinions are always interesting.

[apogio]

But I’m talking about the fact that one person at the beginning of the topic asks a simple question, someone answers him, and this is essentially enough, but then a series of the same thoughts follows, only in different words.

Well yeah I am not doing that, at least not intentionally.

Have you spotted this happening from people from signature campaigns? Since we are honest here, there are mainly two reasons for this:

1. Users from signature campaigns want to reach their post limit to get max payment.

2. Newbies who want to get merit and go up in ranking faster.

(3. Spammers - but this is not too common. Most of the time spammers just spam with random posts, not with answers that have already been mentioned.)

[JiiBs]

I think the solution to this problem is to post in boards with a lower percentage of spam, such as the technical or serious boards, and to use a self-moderated topic.
If you find a member who is spamming or all of his participation is outside the text or without the intention of discussions, then report him to the campaign manager. If the campaign manager does not remove him, create a topic here^[1] and will given a negative trust according to the situation.

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=129.0

Technical discussion remains a board with less spams and that’s mainly due to the fact that, you’ve got to be technical in your discussion there and not so many of the users on this forum are that inclined.
It sometimes bring to mind how, you would be interested in Bitcoin and not seek to know of the technology about it!

I get it that, as a beginner you would be chocked up with terminologies and lots of things that might need you doing a little more research to understand but, it’s the learning process. I think it was the board I started with and I still visit there from time to time even though it’s just to read and it helps my understanding so very much.


To keep the thread on topic, I think creators of a thread owe it to the forum and the people who are interested in the on going discussion (A thread I would call an on going discussion are: Threads within page 1-2 of a board), you should ensure to revisit that thread, read some of the responses and chip in what you could. Perhaps you got your answer from the very first comment but, with people still discussing within themselves and a few referencing the OP due to the fact that, some users don’t give much attention to comments posted on the topic, you could still have few things to say on the intra arguments in the thread.

[Majestic-milf]

But I’m talking about the fact that one person at the beginning of the topic asks a simple question, someone answers him, and this is essentially enough, but then a series of the same thoughts follows, only in different words.

Well yeah I am not doing that, at least not intentionally.

Have you spotted this happening from people from signature campaigns? Since we are honest here, there are mainly two reasons for this:

1. Users from signature campaigns want to reach their post limit to get max payment.

You won't blame those sets of people because to them it's easier to 'rephrase' answers than make a different response especially if the question is the type that is a bit technical or might need researching. Some how the aim of coming into the forum and learning new things from information given is slowly being blindsided by these users who just sort of copy and paste what someone else has already talked about.
 

and if you receive sufficient information, show the ability to close the topics yourself so as not to condone further spam.

I've wondered about this too and came to the conclusion that maybe some topics are left open after having gotten the desired response simply because someone can still pick out an interesting point and further open the floor for discussion. _{at least this is what I tell myself in my head} 

[apogio]

You won't blame those sets of people because to them it's easier to 'rephrase' answers than make a different response especially if the question is the type that is a bit technical or might need researching. Some how the aim of coming into the forum and learning new things from information given is slowly being blindsided by these users who just sort of copy and paste what someone else has already talked about.

No, I am not blaming anyone, but I can't close my eyes when I see people posting with the obvious purpose of making some quick bucks by copy-pasting other peoples' posts. Am I wrong? Haven't you spotted this behaviour in the past?

[Majestic-milf]

You won't blame those sets of people because to them it's easier to 'rephrase' answers than make a different response especially if the question is the type that is a bit technical or might need researching. Some how the aim of coming into the forum and learning new things from information given is slowly being blindsided by these users who just sort of copy and paste what someone else has already talked about.

No, I am not blaming anyone, but I can't close my eyes when I see people posting with the obvious purpose of making some quick bucks by copy-pasting other peoples' posts. Am I wrong? Haven't you spotted this behaviour in the past?

You are not wrong and yes, I've noticed this behavior and who knows I may even be guilty of this. I just think that since this is a social space, there are different peeps with their behavioural patterns that don't really see it as much of a necessity to do something out side the box. This attitude is because they don't bother to read what the person before them said just as you keenly observed. This matter of users making repetitive words just to meet post count is something so many people have complained about, proffered solution for yet it still happens and this often occurs in the gambling section and I'm wondering if there will ever be lasting solution for it or will just have to make do?

[apogio]

You are not wrong and yes, I've noticed this behavior and who knows I may even be guilty of this. I just think that since this is a social space, there are different peeps with their behavioural patterns that don't really see it as much of a necessity to do something out side the box. This attitude is because they don't bother to read what the person before them said just as you keenly observed. This matter of users making repetitive words just to meet post count is something so many people have complained about, proffered solution for yet it still happens and this often occurs in the gambling section and I'm wondering if there will ever be lasting solution for it or will just have to make do?

There are solutions. The easiest one is to use text comparator. But if you want to go a step further, you can also read the whole discussion and use it to judge whether a post deserves to get paid or whether it doesn't.

However, this solution is not possible, because the most reputable campaign managers, manage a bunch of campaigns each. And each campaign has several members, so reading all the posts is a very time consuming task.

What I would do, if I were a campaign manager, would be to pay differently depending on if the post is merited or not. And to avoid merit exchanging I would put a requirement of being merited by at least 3 different members.

Imagine something like this:

Each post will be paid with X dollars.
Each post merited by at least 3 different accounts will be paid with Y dollars.
Each post merited by more than 10 people will be paid Z dollars.

[Upgrade00]

What I would do, if I were a campaign manager, would be to pay differently depending on if the post is merited or not. And to avoid merit exchanging I would put a requirement of being merited by at least 3 different members.

This will not stop merit exchange. I'm sure there are farms out there with more than ten members who can easily engineer merits on posts around the forum. It's also not a true test of quality and will drive some members to post outside their comfort zone if it doesn't get regular merits and can reduce the actual exposure the project is getting as everyone will be posting in the exact same boards.

Each post will be paid with X dollars.
Each post merited by at least 3 different accounts will be paid with Y dollars.
Each post merited by more than 10 people will be paid Z dollars.

Which time frame will it be calculated on? Merits are earned weeks after a post is made.

[apogio]

It's also not a true test of quality and will drive some members to post outside their comfort zone if it doesn't get regular merits and can reduce the actual exposure the project is getting as everyone will be posting in the exact same boards.

But that's why I suggested different payments. So that a user can be paid upon unmerited posts as they used to, but they also have a chance to educate themselves more and to write more constructive posts to earn the extra merit and therefore, the extra bucks.

Why time frame will it be calculated on? Merits are earned weeks after a post is made.

That's indeed an issue... But I guess it good work on a monthly basis. So, if a user had posted X posts in a month, then they could get paid monthly using the scheme I suggested above. I know it's not a great pattern, based on the argument you have mentioned. It needs some tweaking but we could find a way.
Anyway... Just a thought.

[Upgrade00]

<snip>

I think the most important job for the manager is in the selection. Many of the users who apply have been in campaigns before anv how they posted there is still available on their profile, go through that and decide if the member is posting solely for the payment or offering quality to the forum. This way you don't have to keep judging their posts weekly, except it drops significantly in quality and effort.

[apogio]

<snip>

I think the most important job for the manager is in the selection. Many of the users who apply have been in campaigns before anv how they posted there is still available on their profile, go through that and decide if the member is posting solely for the payment or offering quality to the forum. This way you don't have to keep judging their posts weekly, except it drops significantly in quality and effort.

Yes true. The only problem is that this leaves a narrow space for new members to join campaigns.

[Upgrade00]

<snip>

If the campaign is getting its results and the participants are delivering, that's not really a problem, new campaigns will emerge.

I was editing my last reply, but you were quicker to quote it, so I'll just add what I wanted to say here.
Many campaigns now already have something similar to what you suggested, where they give xx (a fixed number) amount of members a fixed reward as the best posters for the week. This has a definite approach and the campaign project can easily follow through.

Suggesting to the project that what they pay each week is not definite and changes based on who gets what amount of merit will be a hurdle.

[SatoPrincess]

I have also noticed a trend amongst newcomers, they take comments to heart and are very emotional when others do not agree with their opinion. They tell you not to comment in their thread if you don’t have anything good to say, which is dumb because only a fool will think he is always right. These set of users do not want a discussion in the real sense of the word. They just want supporters and responses that feed their ego.

[kentrolla]

I have also noticed a trend amongst newcomers, they take comments to heart and are very emotional when others do not agree with their opinion. They tell you not to comment in their thread if you don’t have anything good to say, which is dumb because only a fool will think he is always right. These set of users do not want a discussion in the real sense of the word. They just want supporters and responses that feed their ego.

I have noticed both sides of the story wherein either newcomers acting like they know everything and they can never go wrong and also how some new comers were bullied and they were questioned in a rude manner for their posts. It should be mutual wherein newcomers need to learn the basics and no one is expert they have to understand this fact and should be ready to accept feedbacks and shortcomings, at the same time the tenured users should be more tolerant unless a scan is spread by newbie.