[Theymos] To reduce tension from adding more merits source

[SmartGold01]

I have been thinking about something different from others though I don't know if they are seeing this from their ends as well; Now I have A new idea to share here maybe if is good by theymos then he can implement or leave it but I must share so we can deliberate on it. Haven gone through series of pending merits source application I was discouraged not to apply as one but I think the solely purpose of award merit source is for them to monitor some profile that worth meriting and give merits to them, this could be from either local board or English board (which is general board).
The idea is if theymos facing much difficulties to increase merit source allocation or feels that the already given merits source are not spending their allocation very well why not he stops adding more merits source and make it open to people than leaving those application pending, although it cost us nothing neither does it affect him (theymos) but I have to present this idea instead of adding more merits source he can turn the system to work like this..

As newbie you make account and start posting or being active in the forum and you got about 1 merits to 10 merit on there own which makes them member rank right? Good! Then you needed more of 90 merits to get you full member rank. At this point theymos can set the system whereby if you gained 70 to 80 merits the system should automatically credit you 20 to 30 merits instantly without having to apply for merits counts down, and if such person is being credit such merits s/he have about 10 to 15 sMerit to spend to others whereby merits circulation won't be that scarce again.

Same thing applicable with Senior member getting to Hero rank, if the senior member rank succeed gaining about 450 also 470 merits then the system should credit them auto 50 merits or 30 merits, I know is very hard over here for someone to build her account to 450 merits and if this merits is being credited automatically the user can also merits others instead of adding more merits source at end the system still lack merit, and people complained lack of merits in the system or not ranking up as they feels, believe me the lower ranked people also finds some post useful to them but they can't merit those post since they don't have merit to give and I know how painful it's seeing post that worth giving merits and you don't give even 1 or so.

Same thing goes with Hero member's, if they already gain 700 to 950 then system should be able to credit them to enter the next rank, although this should be done with an account that is active, maybe an account that is active for 1 years and above with serious engagement to the forum, with this the system will be fine and will reduces stress from you and from merits source since most of the merits are being spray over in WO while there are lots of profile struggling to meet the next rank, If not for the helps of these users here filippone, Hugeblack, The Sceptical Chymist  and LoyceV, CryptopreneurBrainboss ,JayJuanGee, philipma1957, lovesmayfamilis. Though there are other people giving out merits but with the number of users wanting to rank up is extremely large.

Please let us discuss this amicably, I don't mean someone should attack me, all I am doing is to also share my idea to see how to balance they system because people complaining of merits always gets me tearing but I can't do anything than bring an idea let see if something can be done.  I believe with this idea you would see how the forum will be very busy again with people, even inactive account will wake up to start posting or even those who are thinking the system is too hard for them to grind will have hope at least.

Thank you all
SmartGold01

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[Dave1]

It's just a question though whether the current set of merit sources are not giving enough merits for someone to rank up, or the merit system totally failed in the beginning? We've seen a lot of members ranking up like every week, Bitcointalk Ranking-up pipeline- Those close to their next rank (lacking Merits).

And it might go against the basic tenant of merit system itself, you really need to work hard and reach that needed merit to rank up.

Just my few sats.

I also ranked up with the help of members like The Sceptical Chymist.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

I believe with this idea you would see how the forum will be very busy again with people, even inactive account will wake up to start posting or even those who are thinking the system is too hard for them to grind will have hope at least.

If not receiving merit is making people sleep then let them sleep. For discussions, if anyone needs a reward then they are not discussing but chasing the benefits. The original goal of the forum is to share ideas about bitcoin, help the bitcoin development and awareness.

The part about not receiving merit? As long as you are active in the forum, posting actively and creating constructive posts, I think you are receiving merits. My experience tells me that when I am active and engaging heavily in discussions, I am receiving merits. But when I am not active, sleeping like those who you are trying to awake, I am not earning any merit. None of it matter for me though.

[hugeblack]

I think that simplifying things would be good. Is the problem in the number of merit sources or in the merit system?

If the problem is in the merit system, although it is not perfect, it serves the purpose, and perhaps some improvements are necessary, but these improvements must be far from the merit system.

If the problem is in the sources of merit, then making these sources elective, just as in DT, or applying other solutions may help, but automation is definitely not a part of it to avoid easy manipulation of the system.

[tranthidung]

As newbie you make account and start posting or being active in the forum and you got about 1 merits to 10 merit on there own which makes them member rank right? Good! Then you needed more of 90 merits to get you full member rank. At this point theymos can set the system whereby if you gained 70 to 80 merits the system should automatically credit you 20 to 30 merits instantly without having to apply for merits counts down, and if such person is being credit such merits s/he have about 10 to 15 sMerit to spend to others whereby merits circulation won't be that scarce again.

Your proposal is not different than reduce requirement for Full member rank to 70 or 80 earned merit. So why don't propose to reduce the requirement?

You also need to know that two members with 70 earned merits are actually different in contributions and quality.

If there is a forum bot to automatically and blindly distribute 30 more merit to abusers, that sucks.

I saw many attempts to abuse in topics like
[v1] [FUN][In Merit] Post count down to your next rank here
[v2][Self Moderated] In Merits, Count Down To Your Next Rank...

They maybe see no one says about their attempts and continue to legalize their merit farming in such threads.

[Helena Yu]

Is the reason to add more merit sources to only help users to rank up? I don't think so. I prove you wrong if we lack of merit sources, I was lack of 7 merits to rank up to Hero rank and after I posted my unmerited posts, then I already achieve Hero rank a day later.

But it doesn't mean I'm not aware with the current merit distribution becomes lower than few last years, I still stand with my previous answer, it's because people only merited their gangs or local posters.

Your proposal is not different than reduce requirement for Full member rank to 70 or 80 earned merit. So why don't propose to reduce the requirement?

Yeah I don't understand why he can think the other way around.

[lovesmayfamilis]

So-so idea; I don’t think it will be of much use. I like the words of BitcoinGirl.Club: those who can’t do it mean they haven’t matured yet. It's simple. Why do you, OP, want to simplify everything? Keep track of those who are receiving large amounts of merit from today's merit sources. Some sources of merit distribute several dozen merits to one account at a time. But what's next? Then those who receive these merits distribute them exclusively to those who are in their local section for posts that are not worth it. By simplifying the system, on the contrary, you will pull everything down. Besides, why do you need to simplify? If five hundred merits are required, then having received them, doesn’t the account have the opportunity to send half of its merits to others? Go ahead and give it away.

You are very sensitive, OP. The forum is not a kindergarten. If a person cannot, then it is he who needs to try harder and not pat him on the head and wipe his snot. 

[Hatchy]

 I believe with this idea you would see how the forum will be very busy again with people, even inactive account will wake up to start posting or even those who are thinking the system is too hard for them to grind will have hope at least.

Thank you all
SmartGold01

How likely is it for the forum to be not busy? Despite some statistics I received from LoyceV the other day indicating a reduction in member activity over the years, it doesn't necessarily mean the forum is less busy. Do you agree with me that inactive accounts that left because they couldn't earn merits shouldn't have been here in the first place? I consider them as spammers and low-quality posters. A member of good quality understands that being active on the forum entails engaging in various discussions that may earn merits along the way. If merits are what they need to stay active, why go offline and become inactive?

While your idea might seem appealing, it doesn't quite fit for several reasons. I see it as a way for some low quality spammers, who left the forum, to be resurrected and continue disrupting the community. They should remain inactive if they believe or have been told that earning merits is the forum's sole focus when there's a wealth of free knowledge to gain. Some members fail to appreciate the privilege of Bitcointalk being a free platform where membership doesn't require payment. In contrast, knowledge in other places comes at a cost. If given such opportunities and one chooses to remain inactive, so be it.

Simply adding more merit sources won't be beneficial if there aren't any quality posts to merit. Again, if low-quality posters return solely because of such a merit supply system, the merit still won't circulate effectively, as one still needs to earn a certain extent of merit before the system autocompletes it.

[Richbased]

The merit system isn't only about ranking up alone because if after a profile ranks up and doesn't receive much merits again it will still look like they ain't making adequate contributions to the forum and however before a user can get to up to the number of merit you prescribed, isn't that profile gonna receive merit from other users? And how can profiles gain merits without a merit source?

My only opinion is that since it looks like most of the existing merit sources are inactive for them to go through Meritable posts, the only idea I can give is for removal of inactive merit sources and a replacement with the current merit source applicants however, merit doesn't reduce the participation of forum members and if you watch closely, merit is still in circulation just that it is very few from merit sources but regardless our sole objective in the forum shouldn't only be centered on earning merits and building new accounts or welcoming new users but to give quality and comprehensive contributions towards the betterment and sustainability of the forum entirely.

[#Greatest]

My only problem with the whole system is how some group of person claims to be an elite group and still abuse the system they are bragging so graciously to protect.

What I mean, is how they tend to give themselves merits on post and replies that don't make sense but charge and use it against other normal users that lack such reputation. I mean have you being to the reputation board of lately? Users are actually slandered for meriting themselves and charged with case of abusing merit within themselves whereas they are free to do @merit-cycling-gangs of Bitcointalk 🙄🙄

[Samlucky O]

It would have been a nice idea but I doubt if this idea can be possible. Expecially the aspect you said that when people get 20 Merit automatically to rank up as full members or senior members to get maybe 50 merits automatically to rank up to hero member, that the sendible merit would be use to merit other people, I don't think it will work that way because many people receive merit on a regular basis and yet they dont merit other people but keeps hoarding the merit or sending to there group of friends while others are lacking behind. You might be right in other things but this aspect of automatic merit system that would no solve the problem of merit scarcity

For example now if you are given an automatic 50 merit for rank up, and what you get is 25 sMerit after spending it on reasonable post how would you be able to get another sensible merit to merit other useful post? when your alocation has just ended after rankup? Because most people are not that good poster to gain merit on a frequent.  That means you will wait to rank up again as a legendary member before you can get another automatic merit to start given to people.

The cause of this merit scarcity in my understanding is as a result of merit source  changing from there normal way of meriting people and simply because of the level at which merit farming has been ranpard this days. And the problem is that this merit farmers are slowing down other people. I could remember when hugeblack said he noticed that many people are using there main account and there alt account to apply for merit but I believe maybe that may be his reason for not releasing merit to most people in his merit thread except otherwise. If people reduce the rate at which they produce alt account maybe the merit system will go back to the normal way it used to. I don't really know if am right though but that is what I guest or it could be that most posters are not discussing more about bitcoin but increasing in shitposting.

[Lida93]

The tension about members complaining of a scarcity of merits leading to their (quality) posts not getting merited thereby making the ranking up process in the forum very difficult than it has ever been, this problems for me is in a two ways.

The first, it may be that the number of merit source are not enough to cover the current number of forum members anymore, which makes them not able to reach all necessary corners of the forum boards in search for quality posts.

Secondly, it's either these posts, merit source or those other members with s'merits willing to spend it at the sighting of a quality post are not coming across it as frequent or the quality of your posting (for the newbies especially) doesn't qualify for meriting owing to their discretion for quality post meriting.

But whatever solution to this  tension should be I wouldn't encourage any form of a simple and cheap ranking recommendations. At least it shouldn't be very rigorous but same time not cheap.

Another underlying problem to the merit system looking as though it's not working evenly is the breeding structure of cartelization and sectionalism with meriting of posts so how a newbie survive through the ranks under such structures even if he's working very hard at it with posts quality is a discussion for another day.

[FatFork]

This would add complexity to the merit system without a clear benefit, and making things more complicated doesn't always help.  If someone has already put in the effort to get 450-470 merits, they likely understand the value of contributing quality content and probably knows why good posts matter.  Perhaps we could explore ways to streamline the merit source application process, or even consider alternative ways to earn merits that encourage ongoing engagement with the forum.

Just ideas.  But if the goal's encouraging more participation, seems like there's easier ways than quotas.

[Mayor of ogba]

I see this idea as something that will give rise to more alt-accounts on this forum if it is implemented. Some users will start farming more accounts because they know that once a new account has gotten up to 70 or 80 merits, there is a system that will automatically distribute 20 or 30 merits to the new account to be ranked up to a full member account. This forum is transparent. If someone is active on this forum and the person's contributions have always been helpful to others, believe me, the person will be getting merit.

[m2017]

It seems like discussions about misallocated merits and an unfair merit system will never stop on this forum. And also, attempts to improve this system from low ranks.

At this point theymos can set the system whereby if you gained 70 to 80 merits the system should automatically credit you 20 to 30 merits instantly without having to apply for merits counts down

I'll say this. This principle is actually already working on the forum. No, not automatically, but thanks to other users. I personally encountered the fact that when I had a small amount of merit left to achieve a new rank, one of the users awarded me merit in order to speed up the rank increase. Moreover, I myself repeated the same thing with others when I saw that another user deserved it (in my opinion) and pushed him to the coveted rank.

There is no need to complicate everything with automation, because the community itself is capable of adapting to the new (merit) system.
 
And I will tell OP the following: instead of trying to change the existing (and established) system (of merit) on this forum, try to change yourself (your actions) to achieve your goals (increasing your rank). The merit system works and many users have proven this by their advancement through the ranking system. If you can't do it or are progressing slowly, then you are doing something wrong.

[SmartGold01]

I believe with this idea you would see how the forum will be very busy again with people, even inactive account will wake up to start posting or even those who are thinking the system is too hard for them to grind will have hope at least.

If not receiving merit is making people sleep then let them sleep. For discussions, if anyone needs a reward then they are not discussing but chasing the benefits. The original goal of the forum is to share ideas about bitcoin, help the bitcoin development and awareness.

Yeah you are correct but I not just saying that it should be give to all profile maybe you fails to understand that part of my post, only active users and not just that but those who are engaging themselves to serious discussion. Though it's not a thing of must but we can discuss about it just as the way we are talking about it to see if there would be any solution maybe since the sources aren't that active to credits merits to people or those who has it are just spending it on WO without even spreading it across just like the way DdmrDdmr does. And of curse you are correct if those that are not receiving merits are sleeping they should keep sleeping maybe when they decides to wake up they can start from where they stops

I think that simplifying things would be good. Is the problem in the number of merit sources or in the merit system?

Well I can't point any one particularly but there should be a better way to do it than just leaving the load on one person either theymos or merits source, but from what I am observing there are lot of merits source and this should be enough to serve the forum more better than just adding. Those who are not active should be removed or reduced their allocation and give to the already pending application or alternatively increase the allocation of those that are active spending their merits wisely. For instance @ NotATether actually needs an increase, such person is active user and spending more merits only daily basis although I am not sure If I have ever received merits from him but I know he has never seen my post attractive to him otherwise he could have.

If the problem is in the sources of merit, then making these sources elective, just as in DT, or applying other solutions may help, but automation is definitely not a part of it to avoid easy manipulation of the system.

This also good and that is the reason I brought up this topic so we can also think about it and give a perfect solution to it than stress anyone, However making it Elective can also be compromised if using the DT system to implements it, this shows that anyone who is DT automatically become merits source. This makes it look so cheap in my opinion since more people are becoming DT every day.

As newbie you make account and start posting or being active in the forum and you got about 1 merits to 10 merit on there own which makes them member rank right? Good! Then you needed more of 90 merits to get you full member rank. At this point theymos can set the system whereby if you gained 70 to 80 merits the system should automatically credit you 20 to 30 merits instantly without having to apply for merits counts down, and if such person is being credit such merits s/he have about 10 to 15 sMerit to spend to others whereby merits circulation won't be that scarce again.

Your proposal is not different than reduce requirement for Full member rank to 70 or 80 earned merit. So why don't propose to reduce the requirement?

You also need to know that two members with 70 earned merits are actually different in contributions and quality.

If there is a forum bot to automatically and blindly distribute 30 more merit to abusers, that sucks.

Well I don't think so, because at their own they are posting to earn merits and earning this merits shows how creative they are if they succeeded earning this merits they system can give them a left to the next rank by rewarding them merits which to give them 100 merits as full member. But it must not be giving to everyone who is just 30 to 20 merits away from their next rank rather it would be judged base on how constructive and creative you seems to be and nevertheless, theymos can implements system to show how active and creative a user is before they could be credited this merits to avoid abuse.

Is the reason to add more merit sources to only help users to rank up? I don't think so. I prove you wrong if we lack of merit sources, I was lack of 7 merits to rank up to Hero rank and after I posted my unmerited posts, then I already achieve Hero rank a day later.

Then if not so why are they giving people merits and why are receiving much volume of merits to toil with it or to hodl it back for themselves or to share among the higher people? Common, I don't basically mean is to give newbies or helps those that wanna rank, but at least is another cool way to justify those that are creative in the forum while those who are merits source share across to those post that worth it. Note I am not enforcing on theymos or to any one here but to share something if the system will be fine and nothing much, or how do you feels apply to become merits source and your application is pending for over 2 years without even speaking out his mind to know why he is not adding or removing, even adjust those that are inactive.

You are very sensitive, OP. The forum is not a kindergarten. If a person cannot, then it is he who needs to try harder and not pat him on the head and wipe his snot. 

You are absolutely correct my dear sister from another country..
But we must know that forum is a bit tough though but with the help everyone will be happy, I don't have any interest to gain or lose anything if this is not implement but everyone should be involved in the freedom of the forum. If I could recall, the forum sole purpose is freedom and awareness of bitcoin across the globe, so everyone should have that freedom to enjoy everything that comes from bitcoin and it's forum, but this doesn't mean spam and Plagiarism should be tolerated or poorly account should be given this requirements.

This would add complexity to the merit system without a clear benefit, and making things more complicated doesn't always help.  If someone has already put in the effort to get 450-470 merits, they likely understand the value of contributing quality content and probably knows why good posts matter.  Perhaps we could explore ways to streamline the merit source application process, or even consider alternative ways to earn merits that encourage ongoing engagement with the forum.

That is the reason why we should brainstorm together to solve the complexity problem I also understand the magnitude of this but should be a way to reduce this complication issues. Maybe it could be lowered to 480 to achieve Hero rank let just say 20% away from the next rank including all ranks except member rank since 10 merits is easily to be earned around here within 120 days of joining the forum. My alternative is clear those who are not active as merits source and replaced those who are active, this including remove those mod that active in some boards and replace them with people are actives.

It seems like discussions about misallocated merits and an unfair merit system will never stop on this forum. And also, attempts to improve this system from low ranks.

At this point theymos can set the system whereby if you gained 70 to 80 merits the system should automatically credit you 20 to 30 merits instantly without having to apply for merits counts down

The merit system works and many users have proven this by their advancement through the ranking system. If you can't do it or are progressing slowly, then you are doing something wrong.

There is wrong with me neither I mine in eager to move to the next rank rather just bringing an idea to see if that could be settled, however like as I said above I have nothing to gain or lose but, this should expand to other users not only you and I who has managed to be at the top. I love the system and I am not finding it difficult to grow but also putting others in consideration, come to think of it how was your journey when you started here was smooth or slow? It is very hard starting from scratch than already being at the top just like you and I.

[CryptoHeadlineNews]

As newbie you make account and start posting or being active in the forum and you got about 1 merits to 10 merit on there own which makes them member rank right? Good! Then you needed more of 90 merits to get you full member rank. At this point theymos can set the system whereby if you gained 70 to 80 merits the system should automatically credit you 20 to 30 merits instantly without having to apply for merits counts down, and if such person is being credit such merits s/he have about 10 to 15 sMerit to spend to others whereby merits circulation won't be that scarce again.

Though your suggestion may sound good, but to me I think automating merit to be sent to forum members when they attain to a certain number of merit is not the best solution to our recent merit scarcity, because just as you said that when a forum "Member" reaches 70 merits, he/she should be automatically given 30 merits so as to enable him/her rank up as a "Full Member", and likewise a "Full Member to Senior", "Senior to Hero" and "Hero to Legendary".  Hence, in regards to your suggestion, there is a simple question I will love to ask, and it goes like this, So what about a Legendary Member rank, should he also be allocated an automated sum of merit, or does it mean since he/she has gotten to the last rank, he don't deserve a merit?

The best solution I think can curb our merit scarcity is if our available merit sources are apportioned to each boards to be looking at quality post and meriting it, rather than focusing on the general boards, as such work most times may look bourgeois to such merit source. That is, allocating either 3 to 5 merit source to be focusing on boards such as; Bitcoin Discussion, Beginners & Help, Meta, Economics, Trading Discussion and Local boards.

[LoyceV]

theymos can set the system whereby if you gained 70 to 80 merits the system should automatically credit you 20 to 30 merits instantly without having to apply for merits counts down

That's like lowering the Merit requirement for Full Member to 70 instead of 100 Merit. And the "count down" as you call it would simply start earlier: "I have 60 Merits now, I only need 10 more to reach my free bump from 70 to 100". Let's not do this.

If you need/want 50 Merit, just make a good post and make me or other Merit sources see it.

This comes to mind:

undoubtedly some people got screwed by this, and if they have decent posts, by all means, give them the 250 or 500 merit that they need to rank-up.

[dzungmobile]

Well I don't think so, because at their own they are posting to earn merits and earning this merits

Posting to earn merit, if so, they don't deserve merit with most of their posts.

shows how creative they are if they succeeded earning this merits

Be creative with posting does not mean their posts have quality.

But it must not be giving to everyone who is just 30 to 20 merits away from their next rank rather it would be judged base on how constructive and creative you seems to be and nevertheless, theymos can implements system to show how active and creative a user is before they could be credited this merits to avoid abuse.

The merit system, merit sources and non-merit-sourced users can do it well with current merit system that was kicked off in 2018.

Theymos does not need to change the merit system to satisfy creative posters but their post quality is in doubt.

But we must know that forum is a bit tough though

It is more easier to rank up in 2024 than in 2018 or 3 to 4 years ago.

If I could recall, the forum sole purpose is freedom and awareness of bitcoin across the globe, so everyone should have that freedom to enjoy everything

Freedom to post and to enjoy the forum. If they focus on learning, their posts, they will make quality posts and merit will come. Meanwhile, nothing is harmful for their freedom and happiness in the forum.

The requirement is not too difficult. An example is 100 earned merit for Full member rank that needs 120 activity point. Don't talk about merit requirement, let's talk about activity point requirement, it will be 9 x 14 = 4.5 months. It is a long enough time for a member to learn, post and earn merit.

If they can spam like 20 or 25 posts weekly in a signature campaign, 18 weeks (9 x 2) means 360 posts to 450 posts. Earning 100 merit with 360 to 450 posts is not too difficult.

Though your suggestion may sound good, but to me I think automating merit to be sent to forum members when they attain to a certain rank is not the best solution to our recent merit scarcity

Merit is not scarce, good posts are.

[Justbillywitt]

At all point, quality should always be preferred over quantity. What's the aim of having quantity members who just want to rank up and they can't produce quality posts that will earn them the desired Merits required to get to whatever rank they desired. If a soft landing is giving to people to easily rank up, where is the place of hard work. The reward for hard work and quality posting is the merit they get from members who find their posts worth meriting. Simplifying the process only means that you are encouraging laziness among members. Nothing is free in this life, if you want something you should work for it, and here it is simple, produce quality posts and it will earn merits. Someone who produces shitty posts as a member ranked will still produce shitty posts even at a higher rank. So ranking up on an automatic merits system as you have suggested, will harm the forum on the long run.