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Author Topic: Mixers and their reason to exist in the bitcoin ecosystem  (Read 323 times)
Nrcewker
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April 08, 2024, 08:43:10 AM
 #21

There maybe several reasons for the existence of Bitcoins. But mainly the traders use to mix the coins. The advantage of mixing is that, the coins won’t be able to trace from the source and you will remain anonymous on the blockchain and internet. Many bad people use this advantage and use the mixers for money laundering and bad deeds. Hence many don’t support the mixers now a days also.

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April 08, 2024, 09:13:31 AM
 #22

Not gonna lie, Mixer is very helpful to me ever since I join the casino signature campaign and earn some Bitcoin because the local exchange the I use frequently to received this funds is very suspicious and doesn’t allowed deposits from casino or from any wallet that has a connection to a crypto casino transaction.

I encounter an issue in the past about this that makes me more cautious and embrace the use of a mixer to hide the trace of gambling activity to my Bitcoin. I stopped using the mixer after the multiple seizes on the popular mixer and decided to use P2P exchange instead.

I've never heard this before, why will any crypto exchange not allow deposits from casinos? I am a gambler too but not so serious about gambling, I have never come across such claims before.

If this is true then it's a valid point to use a mixer, I have always gone against the use of mixers because I don't see any legal reason to use mixers, to me mixers are very fit for criminals but this is your point thus make some sense.

So back to your point, do you have any reasons why the exchange platform doesn't want to get involved with any casino deposits? There must be a very good reason for this, because it looks like they see casinos as money launderers that can get their business into problems someday or they already learned a lesson, can you say more about this? I will wait for a reply.

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April 08, 2024, 09:15:26 AM
 #23

There maybe several reasons for the existence of Bitcoins. But mainly the traders use to mix the coins. The advantage of mixing is that, the coins won’t be able to trace from the source and you will remain anonymous on the blockchain and internet. Many bad people use this advantage and use the mixers for money laundering and bad deeds. Hence many don’t support the mixers now a days also.

Everything has two sides, a good side and a bad side. Just like bitcoin, some people use it to enhance their privacy, they just want to keep some secrets that they think are good for them. But there are also some people who use bitcoin for illegal activities such as money laundering, tax evasion... and we cannot blame bitcoin because all of these actions are human behavior. The same goes for the mixer, it will also have good and bad sides, it will all depend on each person's usage and should not be blamed entirely on it.

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April 08, 2024, 09:30:22 AM
 #24

Mixers are risky, trust based and to a large extent negate the whole point of bitcoin's existence.

We both agree on that part, but I don't think that's the big problem.  Rather, the big problem comes from the notion that some coins are "tainted", which I observe that you're buying.

It's part of bitcoin's functionality however that transactions are public. We knew this since day 1.

It frustrates me when people who misunderstand satoshi, cite him to support their argument.  "Publicly announced" doesn't imply that all transactions are public, and no privacy is allowed.  It simply means that transactions must be broadcasted on a network of computers, and then each one can try to add it to the ledger by doing the Proof-of-Work.  Read again what you've quoted, and particularly the text before the bolded part. 

Bitcoin Q&A: Blacklists, Taint, and Wallet Fingerprinting

Andreas M. Antonopoulos talked about basic steps from centralized platforms to detect tainted coins and understand about it can help you to avoid problems with exchanges and casinos from your deposits. You can do it by yourself and don't have to use mixers for it.

Sorry Andreas, but that's just untrue nonsense.  If you want to solve the problem, stop exchanging with people who view you as a criminal.  The suggestion of repeatedly transferring coins to yourself is one of the most misguided ideas I've come across.

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April 08, 2024, 11:31:44 AM
 #25

Thinking about it, is there ANY fee that would make it worth it to give out bitcoins in exchange for potentially tainted coins that are possibly connected to crime and fraud? Especially given how easy BTC transactions are to track?

Let us talk about the very nature of money. Whether fiat or cryptocurrencies, it both goes around. One is passed on to another and to another and to another. It is possibly endless.

The only difference with crypto and fiat is with fiat, it is usually not written down or documented. No one can possibly know if the money that you just got as a change came from illegal activity.

I do understand the concern of having a suspicious transaction link back to you so I also have not personally used mixers.









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April 14, 2024, 08:35:28 PM
Last edit: April 14, 2024, 09:05:11 PM by PrivacyG
Merited by NeuroticFish (6), FatFork (1)
 #26

On a more serious note though, have you considered that passing your coins through a centralized "mixer" service isn't a real privacy enhancement?
I give you one example.

I have a computer laying around unused since probably 2005 or older.  It has hardware decent enough to run a simplistic Free Linux distro.  It runs only over Ethernet and I will never use that port.  I install the Linux Operating System offline and a verified version of Electrum.  I create a Wallet over there.

You send me 0.005 Bitcoin to my offline Wallet.  I mix 0.001 and send it to another Bitcoin Talk user, let us call him Joe, also from my offline computer by broadcasting it through an amnesic session of Tails on a secure computer.

Tell me how you are going to trace and link the 0.001 I sent Joe to the 0.005 you sent me.

I take it that it's pretty unlikely for a known service address such as from a mixer or from an exchange to be of the same ownership as a third party sending coins to it. So chain analysis is pretty real and has been quite handy for many uses, one of which has been catching criminals.
Chain Analysis is real as in the idea of it is real.  But the accuracy of the analysis shows how B S it truly is.

Why do many users mistakenly get flagged for sending 'Tainted Bitcoin' when they claim they never even used Mixers or Privacy Enhancing stuff.  Or, why is there always an argument for why Mixers need to be removed but Authorities never show real numbers and proof of how many of the Mixer Transactions involve illegal activity.

The Blockchain is fully Transparent.  But this also means the history of the Bitcoin you receive is, while fully Transparent, also very misleading in a Blockchain Analysis.  My Bitcoin has probably seen THOUSANDS of Addresses before it arrived into mine.  I have a habit of jumping my Coins from Address to Address at different times and random interval of days.  How do you differentiate my last 5 jumps to the last 5 historical moves of a random UTXO?

Mixers are risky, trust based and to a large extent negate the whole point of bitcoin's existence.
How in the World did you think of this.  While Bitcoin is here to be Trustless, it still involves Trust to a particular extent.

For example.  When I sell something for Bitcoin on the Forum, the first party will still rely on the Trust that the other party will send what was negotiated.  You can arrange a Middleman.  But you will have to trust that they will do the job correctly and accordingly.  When you buy something from a Shop, you will still have to trust that the Shop will not scam you.  Both cases are still risky and there have been enough negative events such as Scams before, even if the victim used only Bitcoin and no Mixer.

You can simply not move in this world if you trust NOBODY.  There is still a need for Trust to some extent.

Even the very loyal and careless customer of a Centralized Exchange will have to Trust the Exchange for not scamming them out.  Say you deposit a thousand Dollars to Binance and you do have a Know Your Customer enabled account with all forms and every single Privacy invasive form filled and sent.  Who guarantees Binance will not seize your Coins?  For all you know, your Coins may have been part of the largest drug deal in the world in the very recent history before your ownership.

Thinking it may not happen?  FreeWallet guarantees every thing will work AMAZINGLY if you have a 'Wallet' on their App.  And if there is any suspicion about your Coins, all you have is send them proof of Ownership and they will solve the problem for you.  Great!

Spoiler.  They will NEVER return the Coins back to you because no matter how much information you send, they will continue to ask for more.  What can you do about it?

Of course.  Mixers are not perfect.  But it is a big headache to me to think that people run away so fast from a Mixer while happily sending Mug Shot style pictures to Centralized Exchanges to verify their Accounts and give them all their personally identifiable information AND pictures of personal documents.  Yet many of these Exchanges do not even have a public physical address and are often not even secure at all.

Hell.  We should start calling them Mixers 'Exchanges' too.  Maybe there would be less people running away from them.

Passing bitcoins through a so called mixing service introduces risks and likely doesn't even solve the issue of traceability that well. Because the reasons someone might want to use a mixer is disassociation coins from certain activities. Even through many false positives though, coins through mixers might even be easier to detect as "suspicious" to those looking.
I wonder if you would have the same opinion if you would be the victim of a false positive.

Also.  I am using Cash only.  Should I be thoroughly checked for 'certain activities' by the Authorities?  Because the reasons someone might want to use Cash is disassociating from certain activities!

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April 14, 2024, 09:35:26 PM
 #27

Tell me how you are going to trace and link the 0.001 I sent Joe to the 0.005 you sent me.

It's completely traceable, the mixer is 100% aware of the link between the 0.005 you deposited with them and the 0.001 you withdrew from them.

If you want to become anonymous trustlessly, you have to use a coinjoin transaction:

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

You can use Bitcoin privately without giving up custody: https://mempool.space/tx/d465033214fd2309dcce5a90c45fcaa788aa4394ee36debe07aad8d8a37907d2
^ Participate in coinjoin transactions like this with Wasabi Wallet ^
Nostr: npub1pww7030g95nv9ptfpgfu69jpfxj6pm33xxueztsupwekce45wx4sm6en60
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April 14, 2024, 10:59:04 PM
 #28

With what happened and what got revealed these past few months regarding mixers, I don't feel as confident about them anymore.

Sure, in the past there might've been some real use for these folks, they could've really masked someone's identity and stuff which would've saved people who are trying to keep their identities a little more secured within the industry, but as of now only scammers and hackers are really into them. The regular joe wouldn't find any use for it cause we use cryptocurrencies like we use money nowadays. We don't care if it's dumped in a hunk of shit and washed away with soap and water, if it still says $100 bucks on it we'll be happy to keep it in our pockets and use it for purchases.

Bitcoins and crypto are pretty much the same thing nowadays, we don't care where it came from, long as it's the right amount we're good with it. Some exchanges aren't even that much investigative of where the crypto came from anymore, long as it's crypto and you deposited it, meaning it didn't come from any suspicious or third-party accounts, you're okay in their book.

So while I'm sad that bitcointalk's slowly turning into a casino advertisement center, I can't change the fact that mixers getting banned in here is just that important.

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PrivacyG
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April 15, 2024, 01:33:15 AM
 #29

If you want to become anonymous trustlessly, you have to use a coinjoin transaction:

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".
Thank you for the unasked for opinion and for continuing to recycle the same 5 year old comment he made, but I rather stay away from some body who is actively working with Blockchain Analysis.

-----

With what happened and what got revealed these past few months regarding mixers, I don't feel as confident about them anymore.
What happened and got revealed regarding Mixers?

but as of now only scammers and hackers are really into them.
Prove I am a scammer or a hacker.

The regular joe wouldn't find any use for it cause we use cryptocurrencies like we use money nowadays. We don't care if it's dumped in a hunk of shit and washed away with soap and water, if it still says $100 bucks on it we'll be happy to keep it in our pockets and use it for purchases.

Bitcoins and crypto are pretty much the same thing nowadays, we don't care where it came from, long as it's the right amount we're good with it.
So you are not confident about Mixers because according to you they are used only by scammers and hackers now, but you do not care about Money Laundering?  What in the world are you saying?

So while I'm sad that bitcointalk's slowly turning into a casino advertisement center, I can't change the fact that mixers getting banned in here is just that important.
Are you drunk?  You are advertising a Casino in your own Signature.

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Darker45
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April 15, 2024, 02:04:41 AM
 #30

Not gonna lie, Mixer is very helpful to me ever since I join the casino signature campaign and earn some Bitcoin because the local exchange the I use frequently to received this funds is very suspicious and doesn’t allowed deposits from casino or from any wallet that has a connection to a crypto casino transaction.

I encounter an issue in the past about this that makes me more cautious and embrace the use of a mixer to hide the trace of gambling activity to my Bitcoin. I stopped using the mixer after the multiple seizes on the popular mixer and decided to use P2P exchange instead.

I've never heard this before, why will any crypto exchange not allow deposits from casinos? I am a gambler too but not so serious about gambling, I have never come across such claims before.

If this is true then it's a valid point to use a mixer, I have always gone against the use of mixers because I don't see any legal reason to use mixers, to me mixers are very fit for criminals but this is your point thus make some sense.

So back to your point, do you have any reasons why the exchange platform doesn't want to get involved with any casino deposits? There must be a very good reason for this, because it looks like they see casinos as money launderers that can get their business into problems someday or they already learned a lesson, can you say more about this? I will wait for a reply.

I remember there were friends whose local exchange accounts were also blocked because of funds deposited from gambling platforms. If I'm not mistaken, there were already a number of discussions about this as well involving big names like Coinbase. Gambling is oftentimes associated with shady money. This is probably the reason why some exchanges don't want to accept gambling money.

However, to address this by using a mixer is like jumping from the frying pan into the fire. If gambling money is treated with suspicion or perhaps even labeled as tainted by certain exchanges, how much more those funds coming from mixers? Gambling is probably more acceptable than mixing. After all, gambling sites are licensed and regulated, compliant with KYC and AML policies, and so on. Mixers aren't.

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April 15, 2024, 03:15:29 AM
 #31

Yeah, this is main reason why I stop using mixer for my campaign earning and choose to embrace the CEX P2P. I read the issue about exchanger freezing an account from a forum member here that use mixer funds since that specific mixer seized.

This incident can become very serious especially if the exchange does a background on your previous transaction that involves mixer. So I stop immediately after that.

True and signature campaigns are also no longer allowed in addition to many who tie it to unethical practices such as fraudulent use of money so that it is considered that it does not support the integrity of financial markets as expected standards.

and I agree because I think it's better, normal and follow the rules that have been set reasonably and legally than later we deal with the law and damage the reputation of the person or entity involved.

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April 15, 2024, 04:38:14 AM
 #32

good post
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April 15, 2024, 07:00:09 AM
 #33

Yeah, this is main reason why I stop using mixer for my campaign earning and choose to embrace the CEX P2P. I read the issue about exchanger freezing an account from a forum member here that use mixer funds since that specific mixer seized.

This incident can become very serious especially if the exchange does a background on your previous transaction that involves mixer. So I stop immediately after that.

True and signature campaigns are also no longer allowed in addition to many who tie it to unethical practices such as fraudulent use of money so that it is considered that it does not support the integrity of financial markets as expected standards.

and I agree because I think it's better, normal and follow the rules that have been set reasonably and legally than later we deal with the law and damage the reputation of the person or entity involved.

So we are just going to stop recommending mixers and other privacy-enhancing services because some bad apples are abusing them and various entities are banning mixers and mixed funds?

Yes there is always coinjoin, but there are different ways to perform it. And even that is being targeted for a ban by exchanges.

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April 15, 2024, 10:08:24 AM
Last edit: April 15, 2024, 12:26:42 PM by zabzob
 #34

Tell me how you are going to trace and link the 0.001 I sent Joe to the 0.005 you sent me.

It's completely traceable, the mixer is 100% aware of the link between the 0.005 you deposited with them and the 0.001 you withdrew from them.

If you want to become anonymous trustlessly, you have to use a coinjoin transaction:

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".


I think coinjoin is preferable to old-school "mixers" (is anyone still using those??), but I wonder to what extent anonymity can be compromised due to use of centralized servers for coordinating coinjoin mixes. Can these servers connect original coinjoin inputs to the mixed coins you get back? Or is there something in the code that makes that impossible? Whirlpool and WabiSabi protocols are both centralized, but JoinMarket is P2P with no central server. The thing about JoinMarket is it's relatively difficult to use and as a result it has very low liquidity.
PrivacyG
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April 15, 2024, 12:15:37 PM
 #35

Yeah, this is main reason why I stop using mixer for my campaign earning and choose to embrace the CEX P2P. I read the issue about exchanger freezing an account from a forum member here that use mixer funds since that specific mixer seized.
Because you SURELY would not apply for a revival of the most well paid Signature Campaign of the Forum which at one point used to pay thousands of Dollars a month.

You are embracing what?  CEX P2P?  Tell me how a Peer to Peer Centralized Exchange works?

-----

So we are just going to stop recommending mixers and other privacy-enhancing services because some bad apples are abusing them and various entities are banning mixers and mixed funds?
Of course.  Go with the flow as they say, and it gets even better if you pretend you ALWAYS thought Mixers were weird but obviously finally decided just on the 1st of January 2024 that they are in fact bad!  It just happens to fall exactly around the same time Theymos banned Mixers, it is in fact just pure coincidence, what did you think.

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April 16, 2024, 02:44:53 AM
 #36

I think coinjoin is preferable to old-school "mixers" (is anyone still using those??), but I wonder to what extent anonymity can be compromised due to use of centralized servers for coordinating coinjoin mixes. Can these servers connect original coinjoin inputs to the mixed coins you get back? Or is there something in the code that makes that impossible? Whirlpool and WabiSabi protocols are both centralized, but JoinMarket is P2P with no central server. The thing about JoinMarket is it's relatively difficult to use and as a result it has very low liquidity.

Blind signatures enable the ability to coinjoin without the coordinator learning the links between inputs and outputs, which is why mixers have no reason to exist in the Bitcoin ecosystem:

Quote from: gmaxwell
Don't the users learn which inputs match up to which outputs?

In the simplest possible implementation where users meet up on IRC over tor or the like, yes they do. The next simplest implementation is where the users send their input and output information to some meeting point server, and the server creates the transaction and asks people to sign it. The server learns the mapping, but no one else does, and the server still can't steal the coins.

More complicated implementations are possible where even the server doesn't learn the mapping.

E.g. Using chaum blind signatures: The users connect and provide inputs (and change addresses) and a cryptographically-blinded version of the address they want their private coins to go to; the server signs the tokens and returns them. The users anonymously reconnect, unblind their output addresses, and return them to the server. The server can see that all the outputs were signed by it and so all the outputs had to come from valid participants. Later people reconnect and sign.

I opened a discussion thread about tactics for breaking coinjoin privacy: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5482818.0

You can use Bitcoin privately without giving up custody: https://mempool.space/tx/d465033214fd2309dcce5a90c45fcaa788aa4394ee36debe07aad8d8a37907d2
^ Participate in coinjoin transactions like this with Wasabi Wallet ^
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