Important reminders

[nutildah]

If it wasn't spam, but a genuine onboarding process of new users, these discussions and ideas wouldn't need to exist. The only ideas that would be valid would be ways of scaling.

That's the thing though: these are new users being onboarded, and they are "genuine" as far as the network is concerned. Until all miners collectively decide to reject their transactions (which will never happen), Ordinals (and now Runes) users can't be stopped.

I guarantee these are still just passing fads though and nobody will care nearly as much about them a year from now. They will have just left a lot of blockchain bloat in their wake, and there's no way to stop it.

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[NotATether]

Here's another: As long as the law of supply and demand defines the price of block bytes, we can never on-board billions or even millions of people on a layer-1 solution, unless we undermine another important property; being practical to verify the ledger.

Iirc last time we had this there were two directions for action:
1. get the community point their finger towards the services (wallets & exchanges) that were spamming the network
2. get bitcoin one step forward with SegWit

Imho telling that current situation is OK is not the best course of action.

Back in the day, people here were not only technically-minded, they could actually program fixes for these kind of things in whatever language it happened to be in.

So there was a lot of intellectual investment by the community into the problems that happens to be going on inside Bitcoin.

If we are to move anything forward then we need to revive that spirit. First (and not necessarily talking to anyone in particular), wise up on your Bitcoin skills if they need refreshing. Then, go to the new bitcoin-dev mailing list on Google Groups and start reading what other people are doing. And talk too, if you want - the new interface is really similar to BTT.

Just a few days ago there was confirmation that new BIP editors will be added, so it's not like Bitcoin's going to be stagnated anymore. But it needs innovators!

[Ambatman]

If it wasn't spam, but a genuine onboarding process of new users, these discussions and ideas wouldn't need to exist. The only ideas that would be valid would be ways of scaling.

That's the thing though: these are new users being onboarded, and they are "genuine" as far as the network is concerned. Until all miners collectively decide to reject their transactions (which will never happen), Ordinals (and now Runes) users can't be stopped.

I guarantee these are still just passing fads though and nobody will care nearly as much about them a year from now. They will have just left a lot of blockchain bloat in their wake, and there's no way to stop it.

Yeah, the emergence of rune is like a reminder that if one of their exhortation scheme fails another would sprang up.
Ordinals already losing their hype so they brought runes and once runes popularity start failing another would be brought it.
Such creativity but not directed towards the positive growth in the blockchain but to enrich their pocket
Without considering the long term consequence.
Rune is like a parasite and not a very symbiotic one in the long run .
They argue that they are improving on the uses of Bitcoin but it seems like they trying to create another ETH.
Bitcoin Layer 2 adoption has not reached the level that was anticipated
but technology is increasing and new innovations would definitely arise to combat it.
You can't really find a solution if you don't know the problem.

[kryptqnick]

I'm not sure about the first point that fee spikes are a feature, not a bug. I tend to agree with LoyceV that very expensive transactions are a problem, and I really hope we'll have some remedies for that in the future. I mean, honestly, even a few bucks being spent on a transaction fee can be a significant amount, depending on the total sum (especially considering that such transactions are often free for debit card users). But over $10 is just unacceptable, and we've seen fees well over that this time.

As for censorship not being helpful with NFTs, Ordinals and all that stuff, I'll trust the op on this one, but I think that something should be done to discourage the use of Bitcoin for such things.

[Pmalek]

I guarantee these are still just passing fads though and nobody will care nearly as much about them a year from now. They will have just left a lot of blockchain bloat in their wake, and there's no way to stop it.

I wish you were right, but I don't think you are. Ordinals spam didn't stop. It slowed down, but it's still here. There is now a new form of spamming. When the spammers get tired of Runes, they will invent Corks, Hooks, Queens, or whatever other bullshit they can come up with. In the meantime, legitimate developers are being arrested and their websites taken down by three-letter agencies of the United States of Genocide. Oh, I meant America. Not that it has anything to do with the Runes garbage, I am just thinking it aloud.

[JayJuanGee]

Yesterday, I listened to an hour-long Hell's Money podcast in which Casey Rodarmor and Erin (cohost) talked what they had anticipated in regards to the Runes prior to the actual launching of the runes at the halvening.

Within the podcast, they said that they had recorded the podcast a couple of days before the halvening (start of runes) with an anticipation of releasing the episode a few days after the halvening.

Some folks could read the contents of the podcast in various ways in regards to what Rodarmor was expecting to happen in regards to the launching of the Runes.. and even though I am not exactly excited hearing some aspects of runes-discussion, including their proclaiming that they know that Runes might not be really adding any value (or that runes are designed for degen gamblers) - beyond some benevolent contribution that comes from driving up transaction fees (or providing additional (presumptively unstoppable) use cases for bitcoin).

[nutildah]

There is now a new form of spamming. When the spammers get tired of Runes, they will invent Corks, Hooks, Queens, or whatever other bullshit they can come up with.

Yeah probably. There's already something else called Cursed Inscriptions which use a different numeration system than the classic Ordinals system. We can only hope they will get bored with doing this stuff on Bitcoin and do it on a different chain. But given that I understand the M.O. of some of the influencers involved with this garbage, they are only here to cash out on the pump & no one will give a shit about any of this stuff - OK lets up it a year - 2 years from now.

[God bless u]

I may be hated for saying this, but what's currently happening in the mempool is a feature, not a bug. The fact that we have a fixed-sized block limit means that the current clogged up state would inevitably happen sometime.

Another important reminder: Censorship won't prevent monkey jpegs. Let's leave asides if censoring monkeys would undermine one of the important properties: It just technically doesn't work. People who spend dozens of millions of dollars in monkeys everyday can bypass every censorship measure and save them straight to the UTXO set, which would be a lot worse for the rest of us.

Here's another: As long as the law of supply and demand defines the price of block bytes, we can never on-board billions or even millions of people on a layer-1 solution, unless we undermine another important property; being practical to verify the ledger.

Final reminder: The free market decides the ideal tradeoff. "Is it better to have a dynamical block size?", "Would it be worse if we traded 'being practical to verify' with 'being for the poor'?", "Would a tail emission save the situation?". These questions are not easy to answer. However, we have a lot of cryptocurrency options, each tailored to meet different needs. It's up to us to determine which option suits us best and to refrain from complaining about the shortcomings of a single solution.

Look we have to continuously look the market and shift the way we can get benefit from BTC. It's not always that BTC will allow us to do profitable trades or transactions but there are many other uses of BTC as well which we can adopt and get benefit from them until BTC again gives valuable transactions and trades.

It's not convenient to mentions the benefits as it will prolong the discussion but the point is that shift from one use case to another until the previous one come back to the game. Crying over one and not using the another is the bulliest thing we can do. Keep an eye on the whole market not to a particular sector.

[Smilevictorobinna]

There is now a new form of spamming. When the spammers get tired of Runes, they will invent Corks, Hooks, Queens, or whatever other bullshit they can come up with.

Yeah probably. There's already something else called Cursed Inscriptions which use a different numeration system than the classic Ordinals system. We can only hope they will get bored with doing this stuff on Bitcoin and do it on a different chain. But given that I understand the M.O. of some of the influencers involved with this garbage, they are only here to cash out on the pump & no one will give a shit about any of this stuff - OK lets up it a year - 2 years from now.

Spam is difficult to stop reasoning being that they evolve into many form to prevent detection.
And I doubt if they will ever become bored doing this especially with Bitcoin because of the profit they make.
We just hope a time we come when spamming will no longer be a challenge to us all.

[Smilevictorobinna]

Bitcoin continues to do exactly what its supposed to do, without fail. Although the debate goes back all the way to 2011 or so, and we're just rehashing a 13-year-old argument, any transaction that is valid and picked up by a miner is a legitimate bitcoin transaction. So stalwarts who stay mad have two choices:

1) Continue to cry about how jpeggers and/or devs have "broken bitcoin," or
2) Embrace the evolution of what bitcoin can be used for.

PS: staying mad isn't going to change anything.

I agree with you staying mad will not change anything rather it will keep you in the same position so is better to embrace the new evolution in other to benefit from it.
Complaining and arguing about a particular system won't change anything.
A lot of people prefer complaining and arguing about a particular system than trying to make a difference.

[nutildah]

PS: staying mad isn't going to change anything.

I agree with you staying mad will not change anything rather it will keep you in the same position so is better to embrace the new evolution in other to benefit from it.
Complaining and arguing about a particular system won't change anything.
A lot of people prefer complaining and arguing about a particular system than trying to make a difference.

What we can do if people want to be proactive about it is go out there into the battlefield on Twitter (where most action on the subject is taking place these days) and remind people just how dumb Runes is, because its already been done for 10 years, yet a lot of it "claim to fame" comes from "introducing the first fungible shittokens on Bitcoin", which actually goes all the way back to 2013 with Mastercoin (Omni).

For example, this was - somewhat surprisingly - the most popular tweet I've had in a while:



The amount of bullshit getting hurled around is just personally insulting to me as I've been making this kind of stuff on Counterparty for nearly 10 years now. Just nobody cared b/c:

1) The time wasn't right, and
2) I don't have a well-oiled marketing machine behind me.

But yeah, just us complaining to each other on Bitcointalk about it affects no one, because Ordinals & Runes people (for the most part) don't really come here.

[Smilevictorobinna]

PS: staying mad isn't going to change anything.

I agree with you staying mad will not change anything rather it will keep you in the same position so is better to embrace the new evolution in other to benefit from it.
Complaining and arguing about a particular system won't change anything.
A lot of people prefer complaining and arguing about a particular system than trying to make a difference.

What we can do if people want to be proactive about it is go out there into the battlefield on Twitter (where most action on the subject is taking place these days) and remind people just how dumb Runes is, because its already been done for 10 years, yet a lot of it "claim to fame" comes from "introducing the first fungible shittokens on Bitcoin", which actually goes all the way back to 2013 with Mastercoin (Omni).

For example, this was - somewhat surprisingly - the most popular tweet I've had in a while:

https://talkimg.com/images/2024/04/28/rn3tI.png

The amount of bullshit getting hurled around is just personally insulting to me as I've been making this kind of stuff on Counterparty for nearly 10 years now. Just nobody cared b/c:

1) The time wasn't right, and
2) I don't have a well-oiled marketing machine behind me.

But yeah, just us complaining to each other on Bitcointalk about it affects no one, because Ordinals & Runes people (for the most part) don't really come here.

Well I think going on Twitter now know as X can be helpful and I have seen a lot of people doing that on X but the question is, has there been any change if truly there has been positive impact then I think we all should channel our complain and argument there.