EU is set to delagalise decentralised mixers

[bbc.reporter]

Well, not surprising at all! The way US government have started cracking down on crypto related services, it was just a matter of time before rest of the governments follow the same path. So EU has joined the bandwagon to start their surveillance on the internet because they consider mixing services illegal. The way various governments are moving, I don't think crypto users will be able to stay anonymous anymore. That itself will defeat the whole purpose of cryptocurrency.

In coming years. cryptocurrency will remain as an investment and that majority of the supply will be controlled by the corporates and government bodies. Those days are not far, sadly!

I very much agree. Presently they are firmly going after your privacy in the cryptospace with some warning signs that they will next begin to go after the ability of personal custody over your own cryptocoins and assets. My argument is if the future of the cryptospace is no privacy and no self custody then what would be the use of this? What would be the use of decentralization? These coins will only be for trading and pump dump similar to the stock market? What if they also remove this for small minnows like us by telling us that we are not allowed to trade them?

[bittraffic]

Well, not surprising at all! The way US government have started cracking down on crypto related services, it was just a matter of time before rest of the governments follow the same path. So EU has joined the bandwagon to start their surveillance on the internet because they consider mixing services illegal. The way various governments are moving, I don't think crypto users will be able to stay anonymous anymore. That itself will defeat the whole purpose of cryptocurrency.

In coming years. cryptocurrency will remain as an investment and that majority of the supply will be controlled by the corporates and government bodies. Those days are not far, sadly!

I very much agree. Presently they are firmly going after your privacy in the cryptospace with some warning signs that they will next begin to go after the ability of personal custody over your own cryptocoins and assets. My argument is if the future of the cryptospace is no privacy and no self custody then what would be the use of this? What would be the use of decentralization? These coins will only be for trading and pump dump similar to the stock market? What if they also remove this for small minnows like us by telling us that we are not allowed to trade them?

The future is that we are all KYCed. They're copying Xi Jin Ping's model.

Asia will be the next to do this I assume?  They are all just doing what everyone is doing. There may be some countries that will not follow which is kind of a rebel type. I love this show.  It is a lot harder for them to regulate when mixers are around but this is why the software wallets were also mandated to ask KYC.

Someone somewhere there will be a wallet that will exist that no one can know who develops it. And they can't just tell what it has to do.

[Poker Player]

The future is that we are all KYCed. They're copying Xi Jin Ping's model.

I couldn't have summed it up better myself. That's the dream, or rather nightmare, that I have. And it involves going in the opposite direction for which Bitcoin was created. But the bad thing is that I see a majority of people who are going to embrace this willingly.

[mindrust]

The future is that we are all KYCed. They're copying Xi Jin Ping's model.

I couldn't have summed it up better myself. That's the dream, or rather nightmare, that I have. And it involves going in the opposite direction for which Bitcoin was created. But the bad thing is that I see a majority of people who are going to embrace this willingly.

We are already KYC'ed. Every one of us have an ID and a tax number. The gov owns the real world as they own the virtual world. If you don't like to be KYC'ed on the internet, why don't we do something about real-world KYC enforcements? Is there a difference really? Can you go to a bank and have an anonymous bank account? Play in a  casino without showing your ID first? You can't even buy a six pack unless you do KYC first

We didn't have to do any of these because crypto was new. Now it is not anymore... Crypto has been "institutionalized".

None of us are really free. It is an illusion of freedom.

[cryptosize]

The future is that we are all KYCed. They're copying Xi Jin Ping's model.

I couldn't have summed it up better myself. That's the dream, or rather nightmare, that I have. And it involves going in the opposite direction for which Bitcoin was created. But the bad thing is that I see a majority of people who are going to embrace this willingly.

We are already KYC'ed. Every one of us have an ID and a tax number. The gov owns the real world as they own the virtual world. If you don't like to be KYC'ed on the internet, why don't we do something about real-world KYC enforcements? Is there a difference really? Can you go to a bank and have an anonymous bank account? Play in a  casino without showing your ID first? You can't even buy a six pack unless you do KYC first

We didn't have to do any of these because crypto was new. Now it is not anymore... Crypto has been "institutionalized".

None of us are really free. It is an illusion of freedom.

Even mobile phones/SIM cards got KYCed...

I tried to warn people 15+ years ago, but they didn't wanna listen. Still have forum posts from that era.

Apparently it was for the "greater good" (fighting terrorism & pranksters).

[NotFuzzyWarm]

...
We are already KYC'ed. Every one of us have an ID and a tax number. The gov owns the real world as they own the virtual world. If you don't like to be KYC'ed on the internet, why don't we do something about real-world KYC enforcements? Is there a difference really? Can you go to a bank and have an anonymous bank account? Play in a  casino without showing your ID first? You can't even buy a six pack unless you do KYC first
...

That is exactly why I am always rather amused when reading posts decrying the 'lack of privacy' and AML/KYC regulations  
Your governments already know or at least have access to our financial records for fiat, real estate, stocks, etc. Why should crypto be any different?

[btcinfo891]

That is exactly why I am always rather amused when reading posts decrying the 'lack of privacy' and AML/KYC regulations  
Your governments already know or at least have access to our financial records for fiat, real estate, stocks, etc. Why should crypto be any different?

Regarding the financial records that governments have, they don't really know how much cash one has in his pockets. And they don't know your real estate and/or stocks which are in jurisdictions that don't cooperate with your government. Same goes for crypto, if you work correctly with it, the governments do not know how much crypto you own and they will not know your wallet(s).

Why give the governments additional information about yourself? Information is power and the fact that they already have some leverage against you does not mean that you have to provide them even more leverage against yourself.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Regarding the financial records that governments have, they don't really know how much cash one has in his pockets. And they don't know your real estate and/or stocks which are in jurisdictions that don't cooperate with your government. Same goes for crypto, if you work correctly with it, the governments do not know how much crypto you own and they will not know your wallet(s).

Why give the governments additional information about yourself? Information is power and the fact that they already have some leverage against you does not mean that you have to provide them even more leverage against yourself.

I for one do not usually walk around with more than a few hundred $ in my pockets... In the US, bank account, credit card and other finances are ALL subject to government inquiry when needed und considering most folks here do not have holdings outside of their country, again a moot point.

I do not care that the IRS can know how much crypto I own. I have no reason to care because I pay my taxes on it.

the fact that they already have some leverage against you does not mean that you have to provide them even more leverage against yourself.

Leverage for what? What is your specific reason(s) for wanting to hide that information? I cannot think of a single one aside from pure paranoia...

[btcinfo891]

I for one do not usually walk around with more than a few hundred $ in my pockets... In the US, bank account, credit card and other finances are ALL subject to government inquiry when needed und considering most folks here do not have holdings outside of their country, again a moot point.

If crypto is treated like any other government-controlled finances then the government will have the right to

• Confiscate any crypto whenever the government decides so
• Freeze the crypto account thus preventing the owner from using the funds
• Anything else they currently can do with fiat and cannot do yet with crypto

I have no reason to grant the government this kind of power over my crypto funds.

I do not care that the IRS can know how much crypto I own. I have no reason to care because I pay my taxes on it.

the fact that they already have some leverage against you does not mean that you have to provide them even more leverage against yourself.

Leverage for what? What is your specific reason(s) for wanting to hide that information? I cannot think of a single one aside from pure paranoia...

The reason for hiding this kind of information is that this information allows the government to do anything they want with my crypto. The golden UNIX security principle is also called the "principle of least privilege", everyone gets the minimal privileges/information that they need to carry out their tasks. I think that this principle can and should be applied to the governments as well.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

So then as I surmised: Paranoia.

Without me doing something illegal, the US gov cannot and will not do any of what you listed. Do not bring up the US banning gold back in the 1930's as that was a outlier (and the gov paid for the gold turned in), was repealed, and has not been repeated for anything else of value. As for other countries, many will not either but yes there are several corrupt ones that *could* do it. If the US ever does get that bad, them going after crypto will be close to the bottom of my worry list..

Getting back on topic, attempting to make crypto exempt from EU government tracking or hiding it from them you are just giving them more reason to clamp down on it

[d5000]

So then as I surmised: Paranoia. Without me doing something illegal, the US gov cannot and will not do any of what you listed.

Unfortunately that is not guaranteed. Even if we assume that governments and their agencies are "good", they will always make mistakes. There are lots of people wrongly accused of crimes (in the US and other countries retaining capital punishment, you can even get killed being innocent if you're unlucky).

In the Bitcoin world, many people were accused to trade with criminals, their bank accounts were sometimes closed or they got their house raided, only because some transaction they made (e.g. on P2P exchanges) was related with an address or bank account related to a crime.

You can now say: "Ok, but why did they use P2P exchanges and/or transacted with strangers? I do everything on KYCed platforms so I will never be affected by such tragic mistakes!"

The problem is that KYC has gotten so invasive that KYC data is now a major target for criminals too ... you expose yourself to crime because exchanges' data get hacked. Don't know if you know this text about KYC dangers, if not, you should read it.

And then there is of course the possibility that governments go evil. Some here in the forum believe that they are evil already. I do not (for me governments are often neutral, neither "good" nor "evil", with some exceptions of course, but the increasing anti-privacy measures are definitely "evil"), but I think it's a real danger that they can "go evil", and thus btcinfo891's "principle of the least privilege" is a good idea to follow.

[btcinfo891]

So then as I surmised: Paranoia.

Without me doing something illegal, the US gov cannot and will not do any of what you listed. Do not bring up the US banning gold back in the 1930's as that was a outlier (and the gov paid for the gold turned in), was repealed, and has not been repeated for anything else of value. As for other countries, many will not either but yes there are several corrupt ones that *could* do it. If the US ever does get that bad, them going after crypto will be close to the bottom of my worry list..

It is not a question of being paranoid., unless we consider governments' paranoia being the reason why they want full control over crypto, to the level where crypto is not much different from electronic fiat money. In fact it is a matter of the level of government control that people are prepared to tolerate. Should the government be allowed to control every aspect of my life, including the crypto wallet addresses? I think that the government can function perfectly well without them knowing my wallet addresses. I don't undergo a KYC procedure when I pay with cash for something at the corner store. However the governments gradually tighten the regulations and sooner or later I will have to use KYCed wallet when I buy the same things using crypto. Do the governments want all the wallets to be KYCed? I am pretty sure that they do. Am I going to help them with that? No I am not going to help them. Of course "your mileage may vary".

Getting back on topic, attempting to make crypto exempt from EU government tracking or hiding it from them you are just giving them more reason to clamp down on it

People's opposition to the governments plans are irrelevant to the level of control that the EU government tries to acquire. They are determined to get full control of the crypto up to the point where all wallets are KYCed and they are able to see the full list of transactions for any person, pretty much like they do with the banks elecronic money provided by credit/debit cards.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

...
People's opposition to the governments plans are irrelevant to the level of control that the EU government tries to acquire. They are determined to get full control of the crypto up to the point where all wallets are KYCed and they are able to see the full list of transactions for any person, pretty much like they do with the banks elecronic money provided by credit/debit cards.

Now that is something we can agree on: The EU bureaucrats are going nutsy-cookoo in their regulations over everything. From how you heat your homes (they want only heat pumps) and trying to force total electrification vs individuals and companies being able to use natural gas (which is often the best way to efficiently provide heat energy) they seem to want regulations for most aspects of everyday life in the EU. Glad I do not live there because I'd be getting pissed...

Their planned FINTECH regulations --- insane. eg, their restrictions on using fiat with there being hard limits to the amounts you can use. Not only the amounts that require reporting but also amount of fiat that even is allowed to be spent w/o getting 'permission' so to speak.

[bbc.reporter]

Well, not surprising at all! The way US government have started cracking down on crypto related services, it was just a matter of time before rest of the governments follow the same path. So EU has joined the bandwagon to start their surveillance on the internet because they consider mixing services illegal. The way various governments are moving, I don't think crypto users will be able to stay anonymous anymore. That itself will defeat the whole purpose of cryptocurrency.

In coming years. cryptocurrency will remain as an investment and that majority of the supply will be controlled by the corporates and government bodies. Those days are not far, sadly!

I very much agree. Presently they are firmly going after your privacy in the cryptospace with some warning signs that they will next begin to go after the ability of personal custody over your own cryptocoins and assets. My argument is if the future of the cryptospace is no privacy and no self custody then what would be the use of this? What would be the use of decentralization? These coins will only be for trading and pump dump similar to the stock market? What if they also remove this for small minnows like us by telling us that we are not allowed to trade them?

The future is that we are all KYCed. They're copying Xi Jin Ping's model.

Asia will be the next to do this I assume?  They are all just doing what everyone is doing. There may be some countries that will not follow which is kind of a rebel type. I love this show.  It is a lot harder for them to regulate when mixers are around but this is why the software wallets were also mandated to ask KYC.

Someone somewhere there will be a wallet that will exist that no one can know who develops it. And they can't just tell what it has to do.

There might be some jurisdictions in Asia that will follow the strict regulatory environments created in America and Europe, however, I reckon not all countries can implement them with much effectiveness. I speculate there are more people in this forum than there are cryptocoin experts in a developing country's government hehehe.

In any case, everyone should begin to read about Alexey Pertsev's case. He is the Tornado Cash developer who is being accused of money laundering. I shake my head that mainstream media is creating a storyline that he is a money launderer.



Forget CZ and SBF. The game-changing crypto judgment is coming next week

But when you cut through all this action, there is just one case that can truly reset the course of the 15-year-old cryptocurrency industry. And it’s coming to a head on May 14.

This is when a Dutch three-judge panel will hand down a verdict on Alexey Pertsev, the Tornado Cash dev charged with laundering $1.2 billion in illicit assets for a bevy of bad actors, including North Korea’s Lazarus Group of hackers.

If three Dutch judges in eight days’ time decide Pertsev is guilty, they will also be convicting the conceit that blockchain-based transactions lie outside the international anti-money laundering legal system erected over the last 25 years.

Source https://www.dlnews.com/articles/regulation/alexey-pertsev-faces-judgement-in-netherlands-trial/

[NotFuzzyWarm]

From what I've read about the Alexey Pertsev case I have zero sympathy for him. He and others like him is precisely why many of the regulations are being created.

[philipma1957]

From what I've read about the Alexey Pertsev case I have zero sympathy for him. He and others like him is precisely why many of the regulations are being created.

yep it is very simple all privacy coins will get a hurt put on them .


monero
grin

and whatever new ones pop up.

[zasad@]

From what I've read about the Alexey Pertsev case I have zero sympathy for him. He and others like him is precisely why many of the regulations are being created.

I think that's a very wrong accusation.
If all crypto-mixers use the behavioural model of an ostrich burying its head in the sand, it will not slow down the process of regulating mixers.
If the government wants regulation, it will make its own mixer, then shut it down, and then create new laws and regulations

[bbc.reporter]

From what I've read about the Alexey Pertsev case I have zero sympathy for him. He and others like him is precisely why many of the regulations are being created.

We can have our arguments on why we should not like him, however, this is not important. What is important is the decision of the 3 judges next week because it might become a precedent for others to follow.

Also, what are you implying on others like him? How is Tornado Cash different as another tool to help people in the cryptospace preserve privacy?

[zasad@]

From what I've read about the Alexey Pertsev case I have zero sympathy for him. He and others like him is precisely why many of the regulations are being created.

We can have our arguments on why we should not like him, however, this is not important. What is important is the decision of the 3 judges next week because it might become a precedent for others to follow.

Also, what are you implying on others like him? How is Tornado Cash different as another tool to help people in the cryptospace preserve privacy?

Usually cryptomixer developers are very rarely caught by special services. According to the experience of past mixers, special services seize servers and then the news ends.
Alexey Pertsev made a very big mistake when he became a public person. He did not realize the consequences of his actions.
I am also waiting for the court decision, but I think that the court will not be on Alexey Pertsev's side.

[btcinfo891]

So essentially the developer of Tornado Cash is prosecuted for writing and making public the source code of a program. I knew that we are moving towards an Orwellian society, just did not expect things in EU to go downhill so fast.

The developers of Monero should be extremely careful not to reveal their identity. They are doing pretty much the same thing as the developer of Tornado Cash, the only difference is that Monero works on a larger scale and more efficiently than Tornado Cash.