Senators renew scrutiny of border officers authority to search Americans phones

[larry_vw_1955]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/senators-letter-mayorkas-border-search-phone-data-warrant/

A group of senators is pressing Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas for more information on border officers' broad authority to search travelers' phones and other electronic devices without a warrant or suspicion of a crime, renewing scrutiny of whether the U.S. government is infringing on Americans' Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.

watch out guys if you're travelling through the usa border. they're looking for bitcoin wallets to confiscate and then ask you alot of questions why you have a bitcoin wallet installed on your phone.  carrying a trezor across the border therefore seems like a bad idea. they're going to demand you power it up and run it so they can inspect your bitcoin balance and transaction history just to make sure you're not laundering money or anything...

[zasad@]

This practice has existed in many countries for many years. Border guards are looking not only for cryptocurrency wallets, but also for any prohibited content, literature, presence in prohibited groups and other information that can be used against a person.
If you do not show your phone, you will not be allowed into the country or you will be detained.
But a large flow of people cannot be checked qualitatively.
When you give the border guard the second or prepared phone with a big smile, he quickly loses interest in you.
And if you shout about your rights, then there will be a lot of interest in you, because you can hide information.

[larry_vw_1955]

This practice has existed in many countries for many years. Border guards are looking not only for cryptocurrency wallets, but also for any prohibited content, literature, presence in prohibited groups and other information that can be used against a person.

i don't think alot of americans understand this though. how just casually having some bitcoin app on their phone could trigger an investigation into their entire financial situation and maybe even get them in trouble with the IRS if the border security reports to the IRS. its certainly something to make sure you delete all your apps from your phone that have to do with crypto before you go and travel.

When you give the border guard the second or prepared phone with a big smile, he quickly loses interest in you.

then you could be charged with concealing evidence. that could get you into even more trouble than tax evasion or something.

And if you shout about your rights, then there will be a lot of interest in you, because you can hide information.

probably the best thing to do is use a brainwallet. then they can't prove anything.

i think the border officers should focus more on why they are letting drugs overflow into this country than trying to target people who have a smartphone and might be using bitcoin. that fentanyl kills alot of people.  

[zasad@]

This practice has existed in many countries for many years. Border guards are looking not only for cryptocurrency wallets, but also for any prohibited content, literature, presence in prohibited groups and other information that can be used against a person.

i don't think alot of americans understand this though. how just casually having some bitcoin app on their phone could trigger an investigation into their entire financial situation and maybe even get them in trouble with the IRS if the border security reports to the IRS. its certainly something to make sure you delete all your apps from your phone that have to do with crypto before you go and travel.

When you give the border guard the second or prepared phone with a big smile, he quickly loses interest in you.

then you could be charged with concealing evidence. that could get you into even more trouble than tax evasion or something.

And if you shout about your rights, then there will be a lot of interest in you, because you can hide information.

probably the best thing to do is use a brainwallet. then they can't prove anything.

i think the border officers should focus more on why they are letting drugs overflow into this country than trying to target people who have a smartphone and might be using bitcoin. that fentanyl kills alot of people.  

Surely America is the land of the free? What kind of investigation can a transactionless wallet app provoke?
I'm pretty sure there isn't one. And the verification procedure takes time.
And if there are millions of such citizens, do you think the system can handle the load?
And then lawyers will send millions of complaints and the supervisory authorities will not be able to cope with the load.

And if a person goes to the bathroom and flushes shit down the toilet, can they be charged with concealing evidence too?
And if a person accidentally dropped their phone in the toilet and flushed it down with the turd, is that also concealing evidence?
I'm not an American lawyer, but I know that before a person can be charged with concealing evidence, they must be notified that they are under investigation.

[YOSHIE]

watch out guys if you're travelling through the usa border. they're looking for bitcoin wallets to confiscate and then ask you alot of questions why you have a bitcoin wallet installed on your phone.  carrying a trezor across the border therefore seems like a bad idea. they're going to demand you power it up and run it so they can inspect your bitcoin balance and transaction history just to make sure you're not laundering money or anything...

This is really important news for many people to learn, we know that the United States is one of the most popular tourist countries in the world, if laws and regulations like that are implemented at the American border, In my opinion, it's a disaster for society, especially Bitcoin users, it's a bad situation, if the reason is they are laundering money.

It seems that we have to write passwords, emails and other things related to crypto wallets on paper or other safe places and empty everything that smells of crypto in our Android phones when we go to America, Maybe that method can help us get back access to our crypto wallet when we pass through the border.

This is really a bad situation for crypto users in general, need a lot of information before going to a particular country, so that we don't get caught in a cycle of lawlessness.

[larry_vw_1955]

Surely America is the land of the free? What kind of investigation can a transactionless wallet app provoke?

they want to image your phone so they can research it more closely over time. it's not just a quick glance at it and then handing it back to you necessarily. not at all!

https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/31/us_border_phone_search/

The issue came up last year in United States vs. Smith. CBP detained defendant Jatiek Smith upon his return to Newark airport in New Jersey from Jamaica, and forced the US citizen by threat of indefinite detention to surrender his cellphone and password – an act of coercion that in this instance, according to Judge Jed Rakoff of the Southern District of New York, does not violate the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

The agents reviewed the phone manually then imaged it without a warrant. Several weeks later, the government sought and obtained a search warrant. Smith sought to suppress the evidence gained from that search by claiming his rights were violated.

I'm pretty sure there isn't one. And the verification procedure takes time.
And if there are millions of such citizens, do you think the system can handle the load?
And then lawyers will send millions of complaints and the supervisory authorities will not be able to cope with the load.

And if a person goes to the bathroom and flushes shit down the toilet, can they be charged with concealing evidence too?
And if a person accidentally dropped their phone in the toilet and flushed it down with the turd, is that also concealing evidence?
I'm not an American lawyer, but I know that before a person can be charged with concealing evidence, they must be notified that they are under investigation.

read the story of Mr. Smith. do you think he had a chance to flush his phone down a toilet? apparently, they're not supposed to be searching americans phones without a search warrant but they did it to him anyway. for non-us citizens i don't think that rule applies though. may not apply. plus, apparently the "border" could be anywhere within 100 miles of the physical border.

This is really a bad situation for crypto users in general, need a lot of information before going to a particular country, so that we don't get caught in a cycle of lawlessness.

well yeah of course it is. for border security to be flaunting the law and searching peoples' phones against their will and without a search warrant. it's bad news for anyone that values their privacy in whatever thing it is in be that crypto or social media or whatever. would you want a total stranger going through your entire phone at their leisure since they imaged the entire thing before they gave it back to you? how long are they going to keep it for? you don't know. how many people are they going to show it to? you don't know...

Under current law, US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) can search anyone within 100 miles of an American national line, which covers a lot of people.


so it doesn't even have to be at an airport. you could just be within 100 miles of the border and get stopped and treated like that. but i think its illegal treatment. that's another thing people may not realize. most of the time it would probably happen at an airport but it could be anywhere really. and like with what happend with Mr. Smith. even though we might feel he was searched illegally, it seems like the judge didn't sympathize with him fully.

[zasad@]

Surely America is the land of the free? What kind of investigation can a transactionless wallet app provoke?

they want to image your phone so they can research it more closely over time. it's not just a quick glance at it and then handing it back to you necessarily. not at all!

https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/31/us_border_phone_search/

The issue came up last year in United States vs. Smith. CBP detained defendant Jatiek Smith upon his return to Newark airport in New Jersey from Jamaica, and forced the US citizen by threat of indefinite detention to surrender his cellphone and password – an act of coercion that in this instance, according to Judge Jed Rakoff of the Southern District of New York, does not violate the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

The agents reviewed the phone manually then imaged it without a warrant. Several weeks later, the government sought and obtained a search warrant. Smith sought to suppress the evidence gained from that search by claiming his rights were violated.

I'm pretty sure there isn't one. And the verification procedure takes time.
And if there are millions of such citizens, do you think the system can handle the load?
And then lawyers will send millions of complaints and the supervisory authorities will not be able to cope with the load.

And if a person goes to the bathroom and flushes shit down the toilet, can they be charged with concealing evidence too?
And if a person accidentally dropped their phone in the toilet and flushed it down with the turd, is that also concealing evidence?
I'm not an American lawyer, but I know that before a person can be charged with concealing evidence, they must be notified that they are under investigation.

read the story of Mr. Smith. do you think he had a chance to flush his phone down a toilet? apparently, they're not supposed to be searching americans phones without a search warrant but they did it to him anyway. for non-us citizens i don't think that rule applies though. may not apply. plus, apparently the "border" could be anywhere within 100 miles of the physical border.

Your problem is that you take a particular case and try to project it onto the entire country.
Who is Mr. Smith?
In your article you linked to it says: "Smith has been accused of running a brutal gangland extortion ring."
Is this a made up accusation or Mr. Is Smith really engaged in criminal activities and is the organizer of a criminal community?
With such merits Mr. Smith should cross the border with several lawyers to give them his phone. And he should cross the border with a push-button phone like Nokia 3310

[Lucius]

i don't think alot of americans understand this though. how just casually having some bitcoin app on their phone could trigger an investigation into their entire financial situation and maybe even get them in trouble with the IRS if the border security reports to the IRS. its certainly something to make sure you delete all your apps from your phone that have to do with crypto before you go and travel.
~snip~

That advice is actually something that I would give as a guideline for people who come from countries that are on the US "suspicious" list, and it seems to me that this is at least 50% of the countries that exist in the world. Let's be clear, border control officers are not looking exclusively cryptocurrencies, but it is just one of the things they check if someone seems suspicious to them. As far as I know, the US pays special attention to what comes out of the country, especially to any confidential information that could pose a threat to national security.

One of the safest moves is certainly to delete any crypto wallets, but you should also not forget the browsing history from the browser of your smartphone/computer, as well as the history of conversations in any app that may refer to anything that they consider illegal. As far as I remember, in one crypto wallet I had on my smartphone, the app icon could be "disguised" to look like another app, although I don't know how much help it is when your devices are taken away and officials start digging through everything.

Most of these officials actually enjoy it, and their job is only done well if they find something, so sometimes they are quite nervous if they don't succeed.

[larry_vw_1955]

Your problem is that you take a particular case and try to project it onto the entire country.
Who is Mr. Smith?

he's the man that got held up by CBP when he was travelling back to the USA from Jamaica.

In your article you linked to it says: "Smith has been accused of running a brutal gangland extortion ring."
Is this a made up accusation or Mr. Is Smith really engaged in criminal activities and is the organizer of a criminal community?

does it really matter? everyone is supposed to have legal rights to not be searched without a warrant.

With such merits Mr. Smith should cross the border with several lawyers to give them his phone. And he should cross the border with a push-button phone like Nokia 3310

they would still want to go through is contacts list, contact his phone company to get a complete history of all his call activities. best thing is not to travel with a phone at all maybe. or mail it to yourself.

Let's be clear, border control officers are not looking exclusively cryptocurrencies, but it is just one of the things they check if someone seems suspicious to them. As far as I know, the US pays special attention to what comes out of the country, especially to any confidential information that could pose a threat to national security.

the main thing they're looking for is drugs. they have machines that can detect cocaine and things even if you aren't even carrying cocaine but were just exposed to it recently. trace amounts that might have attached to some of your belongings. you don't have to be a drug smuggler to get caught for drugs. and then you have ALOT of explaining to do. which gives them more time to look into that crypto app on your phone too. 

Most of these officials actually enjoy it, and their job is only done well if they find something, so sometimes they are quite nervous if they don't succeed.

it's a position of power. kind of a power trip thing too. where you can search someone's belongings and ask them a bunch of questions while they're standing there watching you go through their things and booting up there phone. "what's this app for?" "have you been doing any drugs lately?"...

[Lucius]

the main thing they're looking for is drugs.
~snip~

I don't know if you are familiar with the documentary series about the world's most famous airports and their controls, I think it was broadcast by the NG channel - but there I saw some really strange cases that are quite difficult to explain. Of course, drugs are always in focus, but what goes that way is a drop in the ocean compared to what is smuggled in bulk in ocean-going ships.

it's a position of power. kind of a power trip thing too. where you can search someone's belongings and ask them a bunch of questions while they're standing there watching you go through their things and booting up there phone. "what's this app for?" "have you been doing any drugs lately?"...

Unfortunately, the wrong people in positions of power can be really problematic because they take out their personal frustrations on people who don't deserve it. Police beating random passers-by during a protest or destroying the property of people whose premises they are searching are something that happens all the time.

That's why it's better not to provoke them in any way, and that means that when you travel to countries like the US, Canada or Australia, it's better to find out what you can have in your luggage, and it's even better to bring a new smartphone and then let them examine it as much as they want.

[zasad@]

Your problem is that you take a particular case and try to project it onto the entire country.
Who is Mr. Smith?

he's the man that got held up by CBP when he was travelling back to the USA from Jamaica.

In your article you linked to it says: "Smith has been accused of running a brutal gangland extortion ring."
Is this a made up accusation or Mr. Is Smith really engaged in criminal activities and is the organizer of a criminal community?

does it really matter? everyone is supposed to have legal rights to not be searched without a warrant.

With such merits Mr. Smith should cross the border with several lawyers to give them his phone. And he should cross the border with a push-button phone like Nokia 3310

they would still want to go through is contacts list, contact his phone company to get a complete history of all his call activities. best thing is not to travel with a phone at all maybe. or mail it to yourself.

If you do not want your phone to be looked at without a warrant, then encrypt it and set only a digital password, without fingerprints and face ID. If a US citizen is not tortured by customs officers, they will not have access to the phone.
Who's stopping you from deleting all your phone data before going through customs and then quickly restoring it?
You know that human rights may not be respected at customs, so be more cunning and smarter and take into account the experience of others.

[larry_vw_1955]

If you do not want your phone to be looked at without a warrant, then encrypt it and set only a digital password, without fingerprints and face ID. If a US citizen is not tortured by customs officers, they will not have access to the phone.

https://reason.com/2024/04/19/appeals-court-rules-that-cops-can-physically-make-you-unlock-your-phone/

Appeals Court Rules That Cops Can Physically Make You Unlock Your Phone
The 9th Circuit determined that forcibly mashing a suspect's thumb into his phone to unlock it was akin to fingerprinting him at the police station.

so if you think having an encrypted phone is going to stop them then i'm not sure i believe that.

Who's stopping you from deleting all your phone data before going through customs and then quickly restoring it?

laziness. being naive about how the border patrol works. not being tech savvy. being afraid that you won't be able to restore everything.

You know that human rights may not be respected at customs, so be more cunning and smarter and take into account the experience of others.

you would think people would learn from other peoples' past mistakes. some of them do but some of them are in their little bubble. and don't.

forcibly mashing someone's finger on their phone wow. we've really hit a new low in society if that's what they do at roadside stops these days.

[yhiaali3]

Fortunately, I do not intend to travel to the United States in my entire life, and fortunately, the customs officials at the border in my country are so stupid that they do not know anything about Bitcoin, let alone an electronic wallet.

This is a fact because two or three years ago a forum member sent me a Trezor wallet as a gift and I was able to get it across the border through a friend who gave some money to the customs officers and told them they could classify it as computer accessories.

I still have the wallet, and I do not expect them to know that it is a Bitcoin wallet, even though it entered the country legally.

[larry_vw_1955]

This is a fact because two or three years ago a forum member sent me a Trezor wallet as a gift and I was able to get it across the border through a friend who gave some money to the customs officers and told them they could classify it as computer accessories.

I still have the wallet, and I do not expect them to know that it is a Bitcoin wallet, even though it entered the country legally.

if they ask you what it is, what would you tell them though? you can't tell them it is a usb drive because then they might ask you what you have stored on it, would you mind if they took a look. then when they find out its not a usb flash drive, they realize you lied to them and then they really get interested in what it is and why you lied to them in the first place.

i think airports have a rule you can't travel with more than a certain amount of cash. i'm wondering when they are going to get around to classifying bitcoin in that category. because apparently if you don't declare the cash you are carrying (if it's over a certain amount) you can get in some real big trouble. it doesn't ma sense that they would let bitcoin users off the hook completely and let them walk through the airport customs with a trezor that had over $10,000 worth of bitcoin on it without even declaring it.  i think that's a loophole that is going to be looked into for sure at some point.


https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/know-you-go-report-your-cash
The transport of any currency and/or monetary instruments (i.e. cashier’s checks) over $10,000 must be reported to a CBP Officer upon arrival into or exiting the United States. Penalties can range from civil fines up to and including seizure of the currency and arrest.


since you don't plan to travel to the usa you don't have anything to worry about!

[pinggoki]

Wow, that's a really scary thing if you ask me. Bin Laden really succeeded at making USA a paranoid country, I guess this kind of totalitarian and North Korean thing was something that a lot of people should've seen miles away, it's eventually bound to happen, the paranoid security theater, the mass surveillance, the prejudice towards the minority, that's all the product of Bin Laden's terrorist plots against USA and now the innocent people will have to suffer, they will all end up having to deal with this inconvenience and at the end of the day, it won't even be that effective anymore, the terrorist plots and attacks are still going to happen. What a typical band aid solution to a problem that's already got an obvious solution.

[zasad@]

If you do not want your phone to be looked at without a warrant, then encrypt it and set only a digital password, without fingerprints and face ID. If a US citizen is not tortured by customs officers, they will not have access to the phone.

https://reason.com/2024/04/19/appeals-court-rules-that-cops-can-physically-make-you-unlock-your-phone/

Appeals Court Rules That Cops Can Physically Make You Unlock Your Phone
The 9th Circuit determined that forcibly mashing a suspect's thumb into his phone to unlock it was akin to fingerprinting him at the police station.

so if you think having an encrypted phone is going to stop them then i'm not sure i believe that.

Who's stopping you from deleting all your phone data before going through customs and then quickly restoring it?

laziness. being naive about how the border patrol works. not being tech savvy. being afraid that you won't be able to restore everything.

You know that human rights may not be respected at customs, so be more cunning and smarter and take into account the experience of others.

you would think people would learn from other peoples' past mistakes. some of them do but some of them are in their little bubble. and don't.

forcibly mashing someone's finger on their phone wow. we've really hit a new low in society if that's what they do at roadside stops these days.

Well, I said that you should remove your fingerprint and face ID. How can the police force you to enter your phone password without torture or threats? If I come to the USA and do not show the contents of the phone, then customs officers will not let me into the country, but they cannot not allow a citizen into the country.

[yhiaali3]

i think airports have a rule you can't travel with more than a certain amount of cash. i'm wondering when they are going to get around to classifying bitcoin in that category. because apparently if you don't declare the cash you are carrying (if it's over a certain amount) you can get in some real big trouble. it doesn't ma sense that they would let bitcoin users off the hook completely and let them walk through the airport customs with a trezor that had over $10,000 worth of bitcoin on it without even declaring it.  i think that's a loophole that is going to be looked into for sure at some point.

Yes, there is such a rule regarding the amounts of cash allowed in all airports, but in my opinion, they cannot apply such a rule to Bitcoin since most countries do not recognize Bitcoin as a currency, so they cannot put in place a law specifying the amount allowed in airports, otherwise they will be forced to recognize it as a legal currency such as the dollar or other foreign currencies.

Of course, this is in addition, to the fact that there are a number of countries that ban Bitcoin permanently.

[larry_vw_1955]

Well, I said that you should remove your fingerprint and face ID. How can the police force you to enter your phone password without torture or threats?

the same way they did to Mr. Smith. The threat of INDEFINITE DETENTION.


The issue came up last year in United States vs. Smith. CBP detained defendant Jatiek Smith upon his return to Newark airport in New Jersey from Jamaica, and forced the US citizen by threat of indefinite detention to surrender his cellphone and password – an act of coercion that in this instance, according to Judge Jed Rakoff of the Southern District of New York, does not violate the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

you can say "oh but he's a bad guy". well bad guys have rights too. just because someone has a rap sheet shouldn't mean that you can violate their rights. because the next thing you know they'll be doing the same thing to YOU.  

If I come to the USA and do not show the contents of the phone, then customs officers will not let me into the country, but they cannot not allow a citizen into the country.

i suppose it is up to their discretion but if they suspect you of being a criminal, they might detain you for further investigation. that means there's this little room in the airport they escort you to using airport security officers and maybe police officers so you don't have a choice. once they get you into the room, they will interview you. i'm not sure if you have a right to a lawyer at that point or not.  

Yes, there is such a rule regarding the amounts of cash allowed in all airports, but in my opinion, they cannot apply such a rule to Bitcoin since most countries do not recognize Bitcoin as a currency, so they cannot put in place a law specifying the amount allowed in airports, otherwise they will be forced to recognize it as a legal currency such as the dollar or other foreign currencies.

well i don't think gold is considered a currency either but try smuggling in a bunch of gold bars using your carry on bag and see if they don't detain you and interview you about it. and if you didn't declare it, you're probably going to be in trouble for breaking the law.

[zasad@]

 larry_vw_1955, What is the threat of indefinite detention?  If a person suddenly forgets his password, will he be held indefinitely in a locked room until he remembers the password without food or calls to his lawyer?

I have heard stories of people not being allowed into the country for such reasons, but what is the point of detaining them?  But if you're a citizen, you have the right to call a lawyer.

[larry_vw_1955]

larry_vw_1955, What is the threat of indefinite detention? 

for example, if they have probable cause to think someone swallowed cocaine, they can force them to undergo medical procedures at the hospital such as xrays.
border officers are not playing around. you might have rights to a lawyer but it's not going to stop them from doing their investigation.
 

If a person suddenly forgets his password, will he be held indefinitely in a locked room until he remembers the password without food or calls to his lawyer?

i don't know how long they might hold someone while they conduct their investigation. but if it's a long time then i would think the person is entitled to food and a lawyer IF THEY HAVE ONE. not everyone has a lawyer though.

I have heard stories of people not being allowed into the country for such reasons, but what is the point of detaining them?  But if you're a citizen, you have the right to call a lawyer.

the point of detention is to perform an investigation. yes you might have a right to a lawyer but alot of people think they can talk their way out of things. and try.