The absolute insanity Congress is writing now...

[franky1]

thanks for some interesting use cases i can certainly understand each one and yet somehow i think the vast majority of people mixing their bitcoin has nothing to do with any of those. what it has to do with i have no idea other than money laundering type things. that's just my own opinion. people trying to avoid paying taxes and things like that.

it doesnt matter how you move crypto
as soon as you convert to fiat.. the tax man rubs his fingers together and salivates

funny part is getting lump sum with no trace, the tax man can treat that as 100% profit/gain and tax you fully.. you then have to find proof of getting crypto at certain rate, reason, time to offset some of the profit/gains to reduce, avoid tax

[larry_vw_1955]

funny part is getting lump sum with no trace, the tax man can treat that as 100% profit/gain and tax you fully.. you then have to find proof of getting crypto at certain rate, reason, time to offset some of the profit/gains to reduce, avoid tax

bitcoin miners?   i bet some of them make up that stuff. even though technically their cost basis is zero since they didn't pay for it.

but yeah i can confirm they do that. like if someone is trading stocks, they can mistakenly recklessly carelessly treat your cost basis as 0, why i'm not exactly sure but it happens. and pretend like you owe them an ungodly amount of money in capital gains taxes. and send you a demand letter to pay it. imagine if someone paid it. the IRS wouldn't say a thing they would just collect the money and move on...

[OcTradism]

it doesnt matter how you move crypto
as soon as you convert to fiat.. the tax man rubs his fingers together and salivates

funny part is getting lump sum with no trace, the tax man can treat that as 100% profit/gain and tax you fully.. you then have to find proof of getting crypto at certain rate, reason, time to offset some of the profit/gains to reduce, avoid tax

They only tax you if you convert your crypto to fiat and you get profit with your sale, conversion. If you buy high, sell low, you will not be taxed because you get loss, not profit. No individual income from buy high, sell low and it is the same for all countries in tax.

If in any country, government tax their citizens who have loss with trading or investment, it's funny and they are too greed.

[franky1]

it doesnt matter how you move crypto
as soon as you convert to fiat.. the tax man rubs his fingers together and salivates

funny part is getting lump sum with no trace, the tax man can treat that as 100% profit/gain and tax you fully.. you then have to find proof of getting crypto at certain rate, reason, time to offset some of the profit/gains to reduce, avoid tax

They only tax you if you convert your crypto to fiat and you get profit with your sale, conversion. If you buy high, sell low, you will not be taxed because you get loss, not profit. No individual income from buy high, sell low and it is the same for all countries in tax.

and thats the rub im talking about.. to declare a loss to legally avoid/lessen your tax exposure, you have to show the proof of the 'buy high' origins and the 'sell low' receipt to then declare that loss

if you cant declare the original "buy high" then you cant declare the sell as a loss

[LoyceV]

honest people don't need to "tumble" their bitcoin.

This is like saying honest people don't need privacy. But hey, if you think you're honest, and if you think this is a good idea, feel free to post all Bitcoin addresses you've ever used. And from now on use only 1 Bitcoin address.

[Maus0728]

Probably the most retarded bill against bitcoin, good luck monitoring all of the addresses here and there because there's bound to be millions of them and I don't think that they'll have the machine and the manpower to analyze all of this, they're basically creating some really weird legislation that doesn't really help anyone, it's probably going to make things much worse for everyone involved which are the US citizens that's also invested in bitcoin. I would love to know the reason behind the passing of this, I want to understand their thinking because right now, it's unhinged in my opinion, no drop of reason whatsoever.

[BlackHatCoiner]

privacy in pooping is not the same basic human right as privacy in spending money though. big difference. if you dont understand that then i don't know... maybe read franky's reply

It's not surprising that you find franky1's replies reasonable and correct.

So, you don't see any reason why an honest person would need privacy when spending bitcoin. That's not a new perspective, so don't feel unique. If you don't mind, could you share your full name and the latest banking transactions you've made over the last 12 months? It should be fairly easy. Just log in to your bank account, go to the transactions section, and you should see a "Transaction Report" that can be viewed as a PDF. Upload it on a temporary file service like this, and share it with us in here.

[PrivacyG]

because it is an accepted societal norm and not only a norm but an expectation and if you don't do it you can get in to trouble.

Why is financial Privacy a non accepted social norm to you?  I heard of so many people around me holding their stash in Cash instead of Banks for Privacy reasons, does this sound like a thing only Criminals do?  Should they be suspected of crime for that?

You do you.  But stop enforcing your thoughts against our lives and choices simply because we want to have Privacy, it is very ridiculous and frustrating.  I never accused you of doing any shit with your Card money or unmixed Bitcoin, why do you portray all Privacy oriented Bitcoin users into the same category of Money Launderers or Criminals?

In a world where Cyber attacks are at the highest recorded level of occurrence AND interest for Criminals, not having Privacy may prove crucial to your own safety.  If you do not use Mixers or other Privacy enhancing tools and you own a decent stash of Bitcoin, it is enough to not pay the right attention ONCE and it could expose information you may not want to be exposed.

You want to support a local store that accepts Bitcoin by ordering from their website and paying in Bitcoin.  You pay there and years later you simply forget about the Change from that Transaction.  You use the Change along a chunk of your stash.  Before you know, the local store had been attacked and their data base stolen.  Some stranger now has the data base of the customers, their Addresses and what they purchased too.  It is a matter of time before they link the change of your Transaction to your stash of Bitcoin.  By the time you realize that, it may be too late.  Some body knows the person living there likely has a lot of Money.  You could be wrench attacked at any given time.  You could be tortured for your stash, like others have been in the past years.

Now imagine how likely it is for some body who OFTEN pays in Bitcoin at multiple stores or Service providers.

Hell.  Pretty much every body who has used Bitcoin in the past ten years has been Dust Attacked at least once.  It could lead to that exact scenario.  Or, remember the Ledger data base leak?  Or the time when random Ledger users got a suspicious 'free Ledger' in their post box?

If you want to be the fool who gets wrench attacked, go ahead.  I am not going to be the one who has to fear for their life out of a stupid mistake.

privacy in pooping is not the same basic human right as privacy in spending money though. big difference.

Did you ever use a Password on your phone screen so others can not mess around with it?  Do you have any phone conversation you would rather keep Private?  Do you close the curtains when you walk around naked or when you are having sex?  Do you ever use Cash just because?  Do you lock the bathroom stall door when pooping so others would not accidentally open it?  Do you ever abstain from talking about health problems regarding any part of your body because you want that to stay Private?  Have you ever closed curtains due to Privacy invasive neighbors?

If you answered Yes to any of the above, why?  Are you hiding something from the world?  Maybe you are a Terrorist in the making even!

[vapourminer]

bitcoin miners?  i bet some of them make up that stuff. even though technically their cost basis is zero since they didn't pay for it.

but yeah i can confirm they do that. like if someone is trading stocks, they can mistakenly recklessly carelessly treat your cost basis as 0, why i'm not exactly sure but it happens. and pretend like you owe them an ungodly amount of money in capital gains taxes. and send you a demand letter to pay it. imagine if someone paid it. the IRS wouldn't say a thing they would just collect the money and move on...

well 1st the CPU/video card/fpga/asic cost time and money to design, build and power but disregarding that for now

approx cost basis in of mining one btc ~2011 was a couple dollars.

figure tax selling at $67000 USD with cost basis of $2

-then-

figure tax selling at $67000 USD with cost basis of zero

[mindrust]

Let’s just tell them to fuck off by not using any of the centralized services that pay taxes to the government. It seems they’ll overregulate crypto to the point to make it unusable. At this point not complying is the only way to move forward.

Do only p2p sales with crypto like it is 2012. The gov doesn’t need to know. These retards will lose so much tax revenue because of this.

[PrivacyG]

Do only p2p sales with crypto like it is 2012. The gov doesn’t need to know. These retards will lose so much tax revenue because of this.

In small increments, they are building a world of fear.

Where you are not using Bitcoin or Cash out of induced fear of being flagged by the Authorities.  Where even if you DO end up using Bitcoin or Cash, you have so many restrictions it becomes virtually impossible to use them without messing up at LEAST once.  The alternative is handing out absolutely every single information about yourself and who your Addresses belonged to, what your Transactions have been used for et cetera.  Paper work over paper work just so you will give up the idea of using Bitcoin at all.  We are, I would say, about 30 to 40 percent there.

They do not care about the lost Tax Revenue.  They are onto pulling as many of us as possible out of Bitcoin.

Ridiculous.  Stupid.  But the people will take it and even start questioning why we are so repulsive to such news, as seen above.  The fact that my honesty is being questioned by default only because I want Privacy is outrageous.

[franky1]

privacy in pooping is not the same basic human right as privacy in spending money though. big difference. if you dont understand that then i don't know... maybe read franky's reply

It's not surprising that you find franky1's replies reasonable and correct.

So, you don't see any reason why an honest person would need privacy when spending bitcoin. That's not a new perspective, so don't feel unique. If you don't mind, could you share your full name and the latest banking transactions you've made over the last 12 months?

you dont NEED privacy. you can WANT and CHOOSE privacy but a NEED is different

much like people dont NEED the opposite. people dont NEED to tell you their full name and latest banking transactions
its not "privacy" to not reveal full name and latest bank statement, its just doing my own thing unintruded

you cant say one thing needs reinforcing due to the opposite will occur otherwise
even without layers of privacy people dont then need to reveal their biography

you pretending without "privacy" peoples whole lives are available is untrue
people without structured privacy still have the choice and desire of what they reveal or not reveal

mixing is not a 100% guarantee of privacy neither, infact it makes you more noticeable to the entities you wish to hide from, yes it may take them more time and effort to undo your efforts of hiding, but mixing is not a 100% guaranteed evasion method

i personally dont use mixers yet no one knows my real birth certified name or where my main stash of coin is.
so pretending people NEED a mixer, is different from those who CHOOSE or WANT to use a mixer for their personal reasons

i dont need a mixer to prevent revelations of my personal life. i choose what information i reveal

[BlackHatCoiner]

[...]

Hopefully, someone understood that nonsense. Fortunately, the person you were replying to didn't even try.

[franky1]

[...]

Hopefully, someone understood that nonsense. Fortunately, the person you were replying to didn't even try.

go cry that your income from mixing has disapeared in 2024
all you are interested in is promoting mixing for income.. even if it causes negative issues for others
you dont care about peoples actual privacy
and you definitely dont care about the consequences of people using mixing

yep mixing does not 100% guarantee privacy. nor does it absolve mixer users and coordinators of consequence
but you dont care, you will remain ignorant as long as you can advertise a scheme that pays you. you wont care about consequences to users nor how you pretend to promote it (with lies)

..

any way
this topics OP did not research what is actually being wrote by congress.. instead its a link to some click bait misrepresentation to cause controversy about somethings thats not even accurate..

tumbling has already been a red flag in fincen's/fatf's eyes of suspicious activity linked to suspicion of mixing.. which is a trigger rated event to highlight the possibility of mixing which is then a trigger of rating threshold of possibility of laundering

by combining a couple trigger events of lower certain suspicious rated activity that lead the mid level suspicion of mixing.
(by defining 2 separate events as equal to being the same as mixing.. is just formalising things they already did)

..

if people really want to learn the traps monitoring services use, its probably best to learn their tricks from actual sources to know how they operate to then know how to work around/avoid them.. instead of just crying that some mis representing blog poster said something that got you emotional thats not even accurate to the "privacy traps"

[d5000]

The solution to only use P2P exchanges like @mindrust proposes is of course a valid strategy. However, I would warn about the mentality to simply think that "if I only use P2P, nothing will ever happen". P2P has its own challenges, for example dealing with exchange users selling "dirty" cryptocurrency, or "dirty" fiat. There are some strategies like trading only with old accounts with reputation (to prevent getting fiat coming from stolen bank accounts, for example), but liquidity on P2P can be quite low and thus the premium you pay for "good" coins or fiat can be quite high. And you have to educate yourself about the strategies. It simply isn't for everybody.

The big problem I see if such laws come through like the FinCEN proposal we discuss here is that Bitcoin becomes just less and less fungible, and this may also affect pure P2P users. If this becomes law in the US (there may be still hope it doesn't) then it is possible that it has consequences for Bitcoin user behaviour in general, even if only few people run really into legal trouble. For example, a lot of Americans will try to examine all their coins and try to exchange those which are even slightly tainted as fast as possible for "clean" coins, and even small American merchants will begin to use chain analysis to prevent to get tainted coins, or even may introduce KYC for their own safety (without being obliged to do so legally). The result could be that the premium you pay at P2P exchanges for "clean" coins from trustable users will become even higher. And other countries could follow the American example and push through similar laws.

So I think some political action isn't a bad idea, even if this involves only retweeting the HRF criticism, or pro-privacy content in general.

thanks for some interesting use cases i can certainly understand each one and yet somehow i think the vast majority of people mixing their bitcoin has nothing to do with any of those.

While there are relative few people affected directly by the use cases I listed (these are only examples), the current rise of authoritarism and populism means that a lot may be affected in the future. And thus I think it's a good idea to preventively not trust your authorities, at least not without some caution. I would thus recommend at least basic privacy strategies like using single-use-addresses for every transaction where this is possible. And of course there's also the danger of abuse by criminals if you talk or write too much about your crypto holdings and these are connected in some way to an address which was public, like @PrivacyG already wrote.

[DooMAD]

The fact that my honesty is being questioned by default only because I want Privacy is outrageous.

Can't help but notice it's usually the same predictable names attacking privacy.  The same ones who often seem to advocate restrictions on freedom in response to just about any subject.  Such people hate freedom and privacy in equal measure.  They feel compelled to attack what they cannot control.  They aren't like us.

Authoritarians will always lose here.  Pay them no mind.

[larry_vw_1955]

This is like saying honest people don't need privacy. But hey, if you think you're honest, and if you think this is a good idea, feel free to post all Bitcoin addresses you've ever used. And from now on use only 1 Bitcoin address.

that would be kind of an invasion of my privacy and i'm not sure it would benefit me in anyway.

If you answered Yes to any of the above, why?  Are you hiding something from the world?  Maybe you are a Terrorist in the making even!

no it's just things i would rather not be talking about that's all.

You do you.  But stop enforcing your thoughts against our lives and choices simply because we want to have Privacy, it is very ridiculous and frustrating.  I never accused you of doing any shit with your Card money or unmixed Bitcoin, why do you portray all Privacy oriented Bitcoin users into the same category of Money Launderers or Criminals?

i don't know. maybe its an incorrect assumption. i don't have full statistics, you know...i just assumed it.

So, you don't see any reason why an honest person would need privacy when spending bitcoin. That's not a new perspective, so don't feel unique. If you don't mind, could you share your full name and the latest banking transactions you've made over the last 12 months? It should be fairly easy. Just log in to your bank account, go to the transactions section, and you should see a "Transaction Report" that can be viewed as a PDF. Upload it on a temporary file service like this (https://ufile.io/), and share it with us in here.

that would be really embarrassing. if i had to do that. i think if i did that, i would feel smaller than an ant and then disappear off the forum.  

[LoyceV]

Let’s just tell them to fuck off by not using any of the centralized services that pay taxes to the government. It seems they’ll overregulate crypto to the point to make it unusable. At this point not complying is the only way to move forward.

As much as I don't like certain laws, I'm not comfortable with (the potential consequences of) breaking them.

Do only p2p sales with crypto like it is 2012. The gov doesn’t need to know. These retards will lose so much tax revenue because of this.

If that involves a bank account, it raises even more questions than using a centralized exchange.

you dont NEED privacy. you can WANT and CHOOSE privacy but a NEED is different
~
no one knows my real birth certified name or where my main stash of coin is.

So you don't NEED a basic human right but you WANT it anyway? What's with the semantics?

i choose what information i reveal

So, assuming the insanity mentioned by OP is applied to your jurisdiction, would you be okay to tell your government all your Bitcoin addresses, and from now on only use one address registered in your name? Or would you choose to become an outlaw?

This is like saying honest people don't need privacy. But hey, if you think you're honest, and if you think this is a good idea, feel free to post all Bitcoin addresses you've ever used. And from now on use only 1 Bitcoin address.

that would be kind of an invasion of my privacy and i'm not sure it would benefit me in anyway.

Exactly!

no it's just things i would rather not be talking about that's all.

Fix your quote, you're not responding to my post.

[franky1]

you dont NEED privacy. you can WANT and CHOOSE privacy but a NEED is different
~
no one knows my real birth certified name or where my main stash of coin is.

So you don't NEED a basic human right but you WANT it anyway? What's with the semantics?

"human rights" are LAWS made by other people..
i dont NEED other people to write laws to tell me i have the right to silence.. i can simple not speak
i dont NEED other people to write laws to tell me i have the right/freedom of movement.. i can simply move
i dont NEED other people to write laws to tell me i have the right/freedom speak.. i can simply speak

people WANT things to make their lives easier. but its not a need its a want

if you want to speak.. then just speak.. you dont need someone else to give you permission

..
oh one last thing
financial privacy has never been a human right,, centuries of evidence proves it

when bitcoin is a public ledger you should understand that its public and then personally do something yourself to protect yourself, such as YOU not revealing yourself.. yep YOU defending and protecting yourself and controlling your own actions and assets is the ultimate definition of self sovereignty.. if you need others to write laws to give you permission .. then you become controlled by that entity that wrote that
and you can only then use that permission AFTER THE FACT by fighting infringements in court after the fact

how about learn that instead of you needing some law maker to give you permission to privacy so you can then use that law in a court after an event.. to instead learn you are in control of your own actions and you can prevent issues.. rather than letting things happen and cry how you have been infringed after the fact 'coz a law is needed to defend me'

i personally dont need laws, rights or constitutions. as you know for many years i speak my mind and dont care who gets offended by the truth..
i dont cry that its my "right to speak".. i just speak my mind

[BlackHatCoiner]

that would be really embarrassing. if i had to do that. i think if i did that, i would feel smaller than an ant and then disappear off the forum.  

Embarrassing would be the last adjective I'd use, but so be it, if you want. You want privacy, because it's none of our business what you're doing with your money. Same goes for "honest people" who mix their coins.

when bitcoin is a public ledger you should understand that its public and then personally do something yourself to protect yourself, such as YOU not revealing yourself..

Or... You know, obfuscate your Bitcoin activity. That's "something to protect yourself".

financial privacy has never been a human right,, centuries of evidence proves it

Article 12 from Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks

i personally dont need laws, rights or constitutions. as you know for many years i speak my mind and dont care who gets offended by the truth..
i dont cry that its my "right to speak".. i just speak my mind

So, here's my truth: I don't need laws to protect my privacy. I can simply practice it myself.