Is taxation theft?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

(That's right dear reader, that was a clickbait!)

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.


My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

[Alpha Marine]

Is it really against your consent though? They didn't take the taxes without you knowing. Before any tax is passed or increased the public is notified. So I guess we can take the issue of theft away.

Taxation becomes wrong when it becomes extreme and when the government don't make good use of the taxes. In my opinion, taxes are like payments to the government so they'll be able to continue providing what they're supposed to provide for their citizens. Where it becomes wrong is when you pay your taxes yet don't get anything in return.

Taxing gains from cryptocurrencies is extreme to me too and I agree that it crosses the line. In that case, we can say that they're overstepping. The fact that they're in charge of the citizens of their country doesn't mean the citizens should have no power over themselves. They should have a right to privacy.

[Perfectbaby]

Well at first this message came to my notifications and I don't regularly post in this section but I believe from now on I will show interest over this section as well.

Now taking about taxation I believe it's no longer new to our system and to humanity especially in most of the 1st & 2nd world countries almost everything is taxable in their system and no can operate independently without the remittance of taxes in fact some of the system is designed in a way where you taxed automatically immediately when you receive salary for the week/month.

I believe some of us are already used to this process and it's what is like sustaining the system and used some of the develop the state and country to make it livable place for her inhabitants, this taxes is used to help mankind as well take cover of the healthcare to whatever sectors of the government.

The major reason why government want to taxe cryptocurrency is because they have no control over it and they believe series of billions dollars are passing through the system without them have total control of it so the next is implement a workable solution as taxation in order for them to take part.

[Spaceman1000$]

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

(That's right dear reader, that was a clickbait!)

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.


My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

Taxation has its own advantage theoretically and in practical terms, it is believe that some of the social structure that we enjoy in the system can mostly be sustained through the revenue generated from tax, we all need electricity, we all need good roads, we all need good transportation system within our country, this investment can be maintained from the revenue we regenerate from tax, but however the big question is if this money being collected in form of taxation being channeled into the right direction?.

But what I won't support is wanting to tax cryptocurrencies with draconian policies, when you know that it is a private assets that has no government affiliation or whatsoever.

[uneng]

Is it really against your consent though? They didn't take the taxes without you knowing. Before any tax is passed or increased the public is notified. So I guess we can take the issue of theft away.

Just because you know, doesn't mean you consented. Governments, regulators and politicians force you to pay, and if you don't, their partners, the judiciary system comes to the play to punish you. You don't have any alternatives. If it's not theft, it's extortion in the best of the cases...

Taxation becomes wrong when it becomes extreme and when the government don't make good use of the taxes. In my opinion, taxes are like payments to the government so they'll be able to continue providing what they're supposed to provide for their citizens. Where it becomes wrong is when you pay your taxes yet don't get anything in return.

I can't say for every countries, because there must be some civilized socities where taxation works and return good fruits for citizens in general. However, in countries supressed by corruption and lack of ethics, the scenario you described above is the reality 24 hours a day, for decades already. And it doesn't seem it's going to improve anytime soon.

Taxation keeps increasing in order to maintain the status quo of the authorities on the top of the pyramid. And nothing improves for the common citizens who pay the largest portion of the taxes (proportionally speaking). It's totally ethical and legit to do what is in your reach to avoid paying taxes to the government in this case.

Just because something is moral (what means the law or rule itself), doesn't mean it's ethical... Ethics reflect over morals, and if a law isn't ethical, it shouldn't be followed.

[franky1]

oh good old blackhat misinforming as usual

when citizens vote they choose who manages the country whom determines how laws and policy is made
people AGREE and consent to be managed which comes with costs, people agree that some situations of life are not assured and so they agree that some representatives of the masses can organise such funds to the distribute to the services/functions that are needed which individuals cant do for themselves.

so tax is not theft when its part of the law that had been agreed to by the representatives the majority consented to

sometimes changes in tax laws or expenditure policy can negative affect the masses. but thats where people petition their government for change that benefits the masses, or vote a new governing body into power who pledge to change laws for the benefit of the masses

i personally think that alot of the tax which treasuries manage get wasted and we should petition governments to economise and organise funds better, but that does not mean taxation is illegal when there are many many many laws actually legalised it over centuries. so its not theft, just irresponsibly managed/spent

[Knight Hider]

The magic word is unauthorized taking. If government makes it legal, it is no longer theft.

Morally, I think there should be a maximum. 30% is too high.

[SamReomo]

If taxation is imposed on someone who can't afford to have its burden then it's somehow a type of crime while if you see it at growth point of view of an economy then it's a very useful tool to support an economy.

Personally, I'm against the idea of heavy taxation because there are group of people who can't pay higher taxes and during having taxation they are forced to pay the taxes and for that they have to do many sacrifices.

Small taxes aren't bad but when it gets to higher numbers then those type of taxes make citizens to take somehow bad decisions. Some of the citizens might leave an economy where paying high taxes are mandatory while others try their best to avoid paying taxes by finding some loopholes in the system.

[Smartvirus]

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

It’s hard to comment on this, coming from a country that uses indirect tax in taxation and limits direct taxation to those in the civil service.

Still, I wouldn’t view taxation as legalized theft, not by any context although, I do feel a bit uneasy when you tax an already taxed money but, to whom much is given, much is also expected as the good book of the Christians would say.

When you look at what the tax payers money is been used for, you have little reason to complain over the the process. You’re certainly enjoying a lot from the taxes you pay and that should be something to find comfort in.
Taxation is not theft but, a system to ensure the government purse stays filled to provide the basics for every citizen within the state and run government affairs.

[alani123]

Taxation is one of the largest failures of capitalism.

Capitalism as a system will ideologically justify any horror the rich bring upon us as freedom, saying that free markets is the best system we have to our disposal.
However, the burden of averting societal collapse falls on the working man still.

From the moment you give out your labour to a corporation, this is where the thievery begins. This corporation will pay you back only a portion of what you have produced for them.
Say you work at a sandwich shop making sandwiches. On a daily basis you make enough product for Mr. Bossman to have 200$ pure profit after all expenses. What is he gonna pay you? Probably you'd be lucky to get paid 50$ a day if the "market rate" is a little lower than that for this kind of work.

And then who's gonna be responsible for upkeep and maintenance of infrastructure that will keep our society running? We need hospitals, roads, public warning networks, courts systems, blood banks... Doctors. Generally speaking we need many things to run a society and not everything can run on profit or a per-use basis otherwise we're gonna die or a very big part of the workforce will stop being able to function.

All this infrastructure is in the end acting as a subsidy to how lacking your wages are. Because surely in a free economy if your wages were enough you wouldn't settle for the public handouts and would rather seek out more premium services, right?

But on top of all this, the ultimate irony is that proportionally, the working man pays higher taxes than corporations. Corporations might also pay taxes, but their tax rate is capped at a 25% rate on most countries. Whereas individual tax rates are reaching levels up to 80%. Adding in insurance, pension and other taxes that individuals have to pay, taxation is very disproportionate no matter how you see it.

Ironically, people fond of "good capitalism" will shout that taxation is theft, while there has never been an example of a state where there was no taxation as we know it, with the only exception being (drumroll please)... Communist states.

[lalabotax]

Is taxation theft?

Hem, for me, it seems like robbery. Ooops.

Just imagine, every year or certain period, there will definitely be changes regarding tax, whether it's the percentage, or the area where tax must be collected. And this will continue to increase. Wow, they take a lot of money from the people, with all the laws in place.

But what's even more annoying is:
They even corrupted it collectively. Ah never mind, it's quite painful for me to accept that. But I'm not empowered.
\In fact, every transaction on the local exchange is immediately deducted from tax. Hmm, what's more, there is talk that the institution that manages crypto in my country will change its official operations next year, there is a possibility that this will be related to an increase in the amount of taxes too. Hahaha, should I laugh this loudly?

[goldkingcoiner]

Taxation is an agreement between the government and the people. It becomes theft if the government is not holding up its promises. Which happens very frequently.

So, in most cases, yes. Taxation is theft.

[yhiaali3]

I vote no, I do not consider taxes to be theft, even if the government takes them forcefully most of the time and perhaps they are wasted incorrectly, but I do not consider them to be theft, because the government needs money to provide services to citizens, and citizens have to pay for the services they receive.

Yes, taxes can be stolen by some officials or some corrupt governments, but even in this case we cannot call taxes “theft.” Rather, we can call the government a “thief.”

Yes, in some cases when exaggerated taxes are imposed on some services or products, we can call this an excess and a kind of theft.

[Argoo]

No state can exist without taxes and this must be recognized. There are many professions that do not directly benefit people and therefore they must receive compensation for their work from the state, which, in turn, can allocate it through the collection of taxes. This applies to teachers, teachers, military and many other professions. The state also needs funds for various social projects - the construction of roads, bridges, various social infrastructure, which create certain living conditions for people. Therefore, not a single state can do without collecting taxes.

A completely different question is the amount of fair taxation. Here, each of us has our own considerations and there will never be unity on this issue. But in general, I don't think taxes are theft. Under certain circumstances, theft can only be recognized as excessively high taxation and abuse in this area when distributing the expenditure of funds collected in this way.

[electronicash]

taxition on crypto make sense than taxing the money they can print themselves.

take it from the gang master Nayeb. 😁

[Strongkored]

Taxation is not theft, but the government is the thief because it steals money from taxing the community which should be used for the welfare of the community.
We see that there are countries that have high taxes and their people are prosperous, at least the public facilities in that country are of the best quality and people's income is high so there is no problem with high taxes, there are countries that do not apply taxes because they have large income from natural resources, but there are countries that it seems low in implementing taxes, but the people do not have large incomes or opportunities to improve their lives, so no matter how small the tax that has to be paid, it is still miserable for them and the government lives in luxury from the tax proceeds, so the thief is the government that lives in luxury by committing corruption from the tax proceeds, so taxes don't matter as long as they are actually used for the welfare of the community, building the best public facilities, not building luxurious houses for their officials.

[pooya87]

However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory.

Then what's the point of parliament and legislation body that people chose to pass those laws? If they chose them, then tax is not taking their property without consent, they've already consented to it.
If they don't like it, they should change the law but until then it is not theft.

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil?

The only real questions that should be asked are:
1) Where is that money being spent? And if it is being wasted somewhere, how can that be fixed?
2) What's the alternative if there were no taxes? Tax is being spent somewhere, right? Like the defense budget. Where should that money come from without taxes? Who's going to pay the armed forces to defend your country specially at this time that the global tensions are rising.

[Ultegra134]

There's no yes-or-no answer to this question. I cannot see taxation as theft. However, this applies as long as my taxes are being put to good use to provide a quality life. This means that I've got free public healthcare whenever I need it, free public education with no strings attached, decent roads and infrastructure, and if the salaries are enough to ensure a comfortable life, then I'd be fine with paying my share.

However, this usually isn't the case, at least in Greece and certainly in other countries as well, where you pay excessive taxes without even providing the basics, while the massive taxation of 24% is encouraging people to tax evasion. If they were a more reasonable amount, then fewer people would actually be led to tax evasion in order to make ends meet.

[BlackHatCoiner]

The magic word is unauthorized taking. If government makes it legal, it is no longer theft.

When the government bombs countries and destroys other nations, you wouldn't call it "authorized killing". You would call it genocide. By the same line of reasoning, just because the government allows itself to confiscate property, you wouldn't call it "authorized taking", but theft or robbery.

Then what's the point of parliament and legislation body that people chose to pass those laws? If they chose them, then tax is not taking their property without consent, they've already consented to it.

But is there really consent in democracy? If you do not belong to the majority (which supposedly wants to pass these laws), then, unless you leave the borders of your country, there is nothing else you can do, whether you consent or not.

In a democracy, you are presented with several options and allowed to vote for one. Regardless of the outcome, you are compelled to accept it, even if you dislike all the options. To me, this is akin to choosing which mobster represents you better. Believing that you have a say in the matter is a grand illusion.

However, this applies as long as my taxes are being put to good use to provide a quality life.

If a thief stole your property and donated it to charity or funded public infrastructure, wouldn't you still call it theft? The only difference with the government taking your property is that you are aware when it happens.

[Bright0515]

Taxation is not an illegal thing so it is not a theft and very far from being theft.
All taxes withdrawn from an individual is notified before it is taking it can only be a theft when not notified at all any increase in tax collecting must also be notified.
But we are still in this planet if the government wants to gain from tax collection they go through individual business owners where as the tax they issue on that business will yield them what they want and it is not still a theft because both parties had an agreement on how much your business will pay before the establishment or operation.